FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 Seen some discussion on here about whether the concept of signing young players for the future is working so I thought I’d have a look at some stats. I’ve looked at all the players signed permanently under LJ who were 22 or younger when they signed. All data is from Transfermarkt.com which admittedly isn’t always the best source, and fees/values are in millions of it’s not obvious! • Taylor Moore - £1.58/£0.45, few/no first team appearances • Gustav Engvall - £1.44/???, few/no first team appearances • Callum O’Dowda - £1.08/£1.80, established first teamer • Josh Brownhill - Free/£2.70, established first teamer • Diego De Girolamo - Free/Free, few/no first team appearances • Ivan Lucic - ???/Free, some first team appearances • Niclas Eliasson - £1.80/£1.35, established first teamer • Liam Walsh - £0.99/£0.90, some first team appearances • Rory Holden - ???/???, few/no first team appearances • Tyreeq Bakinson - ???/???, few/no first team appearances • Hakeeb Adelakun - Free/£0.45, few/no first team appearances Successes: O’Dowda, Brownhill, Eliasson Failures: Engvall, De Girolamo, Lucic Jury’s Out: Moore, Walsh, Holden, Bakinson, Adelakun Overall then I’d say it’s too early to tell in general, but from the early signs it looks like it’s going well. Any “one for the future” is always going to be a bit of a gamble but the costs are low and I think so far the successes outweigh the failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 Jonny Smith Freddie Hinds Antoine Semenyo Tin Plavotic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Jonny Smith Freddie Hinds Antoine Semenyo Tin Plavotic Were listed on the website as being signed by the U23s rather than the senior team, which is why I missed them! However, I’d say the first three come under Jury’s Out while Plavotic would have to go down as a failure, having left the club on a free without having made a first team impact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 32 minutes ago, FlintSaidNo said: Seen some discussion on here about whether the concept of signing young players for the future is working so I thought I’d have a look at some stats. I’ve looked at all the players signed permanently under LJ who were 22 or younger when they signed. All data is from Transfermarkt.com which admittedly isn’t always the best source, and fees/values are in millions of it’s not obvious! • Taylor Moore - £1.58/£0.45, few/no first team appearances • Gustav Engvall - £1.44/???, few/no first team appearances • Callum O’Dowda - £1.08/£1.80, established first teamer • Josh Brownhill - Free/£2.70, established first teamer • Diego De Girolamo - Free/Free, few/no first team appearances • Ivan Lucic - ???/Free, some first team appearances • Niclas Eliasson - £1.80/£1.35, established first teamer • Liam Walsh - £0.99/£0.90, some first team appearances • Rory Holden - ???/???, few/no first team appearances • Tyreeq Bakinson - ???/???, few/no first team appearances • Hakeeb Adelakun - Free/£0.45, few/no first team appearances Successes: O’Dowda, Brownhill, Eliasson Failures: Engvall, De Girolamo, Lucic Jury’s Out: Moore, Walsh, Holden, Bakinson, Adelakun Overall then I’d say it’s too early to tell in general, but from the early signs it looks like it’s going well. Any “one for the future” is always going to be a bit of a gamble but the costs are low and I think so far the successes outweigh the failures. What are the numbers after the / ? Please don’t tell me they are transfrermarket valuations as all of their valtuations are utter nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFCGav Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, RedDave said: What are the numbers after the / ? Please don’t tell me they are transfrermarket valuations as all of their valtuations are utter nonsense I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they are. And yes, they're horse-shit. Callum, Josh and Niclas' valuations show that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, RedDave said: What are the numbers after the / ? Please don’t tell me they are transfrermarket valuations as all of their valtuations are utter nonsense They’re transfer fees where relevant, otherwise yeah they are, I don’t know of any better source! They’re just to illustrate though, you can draw your own conclusions, as I have done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 The effort is there but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said: The effort is there but that's about it. Just thought it would be interesting to have a list of the players to look at it properly. I’m not sure which of my conclusions you disagree with? I think Callum, Josh and Nic have undeniably paid off any gamble in bringing them in, most of the others are still too young to tell, with the exception of those the club have given up on and let go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 1 minute ago, FlintSaidNo said: Just thought it would be interesting to have a list of the players to look at it properly. I’m not sure which of my conclusions you disagree with? I think Callum, Josh and Nic have undeniably payed off any gamble in bringing them in, most of the others are still to young to tell, with the exception of those the club have given up on and let go. As things stands a fresh list with not a single name on it would be to prefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 47 minutes ago, FlintSaidNo said: Seen some discussion on here about whether the concept of signing young players for the future is working so I thought I’d have a look at some stats. I’ve looked at all the players signed permanently under LJ who were 22 or younger when they signed. All data is from Transfermarkt.com which admittedly isn’t always the best source, and fees/values are in millions of it’s not obvious! • Taylor Moore - £1.58/£0.45, few/no first team appearances • Gustav Engvall - £1.44/???, few/no first team appearances • Callum O’Dowda - £1.08/£1.80, established first teamer • Josh Brownhill - Free/£2.70, established first teamer • Diego De Girolamo - Free/Free, few/no first team appearances • Ivan Lucic - ???/Free, some first team appearances • Niclas Eliasson - £1.80/£1.35, established first teamer • Liam Walsh - £0.99/£0.90, some first team appearances • Rory Holden - ???/???, few/no first team appearances • Tyreeq Bakinson - ???/???, few/no first team appearances • Hakeeb Adelakun - Free/£0.45, few/no first team appearances Successes: O’Dowda, Brownhill, Eliasson Failures: Engvall, De Girolamo, Lucic Jury’s Out: Moore, Walsh, Holden, Bakinson, Adelakun Overall then I’d say it’s too early to tell in general, but from the early signs it looks like it’s going well. Any “one for the future” is always going to be a bit of a gamble but the costs are low and I think so far the successes outweigh the failures. Adelakun will cost us if not already as it was going to a Tribunal. Maggers i'm not sure we got our overall outlay back ? Also the wages paid to these players over the course of their City careers to date ought to be factored in as for example, Callum O'Dowda has been with us for 3 years and is surely on around £10,000 per week which equals £1.5m over his time with us. I would imagine Taylor Moore is on a fair wedge too.. Engvall we can all agree was a total crock of shite up there with the one scouted on Channel 5 by Pete Johnson as the due dilligence on the lad appeared non existent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Loon plage said: Adelakun will cost us if not already as it was going to a Tribunal. Maggers i'm not sure we got our overall outlay back ? Also the wages paid to these players over the course of their City careers to date ought to be factored in as for example, Callum O'Dowda has been with us for 3 years and is surely on around £10,000 per week which equals £1.5m over his time with us. I would imagine Taylor Moore is on a fair wedge too.. Engvall we can all agree was a total crock of shite up there with the one scouted on Channel 5 by Pete Johnson as the due dilligence on the lad appeared non existent. Adelakun is still young and has potential though (although I’m inclined to agree he’ll probably end up as another failure). Hords bought for £1.9 mill, sold for £2.5 mill apparently. It’s a fair point about wages, I would think most are on pretty low wages by championship standards until they show they’ve got what it takes, but there will be a few exceptions. Overall though I’d still say that it’s already becoming worth it, and the benefits will only increase with more time as they mature more. All three of Josh, Cal and Nic are still young and will increase in both quality and value, and others will follow in their footsteps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, Loon plage said: Adelakun will cost us if not already as it was going to a Tribunal. Maggers i'm not sure we got our overall outlay back ? Also the wages paid to these players over the course of their City careers to date ought to be factored in as for example, Callum O'Dowda has been with us for 3 years and is surely on around £10,000 per week which equals £1.5m over his time with us. I would imagine Taylor Moore is on a fair wedge too.. Engvall we can all agree was a total crock of shite up there with the one scouted on Channel 5 by Pete Johnson as the due dilligence on the lad appeared non existent. Maggers we got the same fee back, except I think the quote fee we paid was in Euros and sale in pounds, so with currency exchange it's likely we made a small profit or broke even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 19 minutes ago, Loon plage said: Adelakun will cost us if not already as it was going to a Tribunal. Maggers i'm not sure we got our overall outlay back ? Also the wages paid to these players over the course of their City careers to date ought to be factored in as for example, Callum O'Dowda has been with us for 3 years and is surely on around £10,000 per week which equals £1.5m over his time with us. I would imagine Taylor Moore is on a fair wedge too.. Engvall we can all agree was a total crock of shite up there with the one scouted on Channel 5 by Pete Johnson as the due dilligence on the lad appeared non existent. Not Engvalls fault he was signed for money laundring reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said: Not Engvalls fault he was signed for money laundring reasons It’s his fault that he didn’t buckle down and force LJ to pick him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Major Isewater said: It’s his fault that he didn’t buckle down and force LJ to pick him . In stead of a number he should have had a bench on the back of his shirt The FA are total nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said: In stead of a number he should have had a bench on the back of his shirt The FA are total nuts. Talkin' of Nuts.........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcofisher Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said: Not Engvalls fault he was signed for money laundring reasons Care to explain this, first I have heard about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, marcofisher said: Care to explain this, first I have heard about it? Don't even go there......unless your a big fan of surreal comedy, and Edward Lear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 1 minute ago, marcofisher said: Care to explain this, first I have heard about it? I have done it before on here. Engvalls contract at Gothenburg was on the verge of running out and they were on the verge of going bust. Still we paid them twice the market value for his services under contract. Half the fee (600,000) ended up with a Swedish agent with his office at his home adress (pocket), with no employees or significant turnover and with no history as an agent. The money (£600,000) ended up in England. As consultant fee. From what I have heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcofisher Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said: I have done it before on here. Engvalls contract at Gothenburg was on the verge of running out and they were on the verge of going bust. Still we paid them twice the market value for his services under contract. Half the fee (600,000) ended up with a Swedish agent with his office at his home adress (pocket), with no employees or significant turnover and with no history as an agent. The money (£600,000) ended up in England. As consultant fee. From what I have heard. Any sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, marcofisher said: Any sources? The Swedish companys annual reports are publically available. As said the the information is already on OTIB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappers Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 I take it that the point is just to moan, and hope that we go back to buying in endless “names” which got us nowhere. There will be failures, but in time it will pay dividends, just be patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chappers said: I take it that the point is just to moan, and hope that we go back to buying in endless “names” which got us nowhere. There will be failures, but in time it will pay dividends, just be patient. Exactly what we are doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Lucan said: Wages, signing on fees and bonuses. This is key that most people don't account for. If a transfer looks like a profit of anything less than 1m, the reality is that it's almost certainly a loss in real terms Although from an FFP perspective can still look like a profit, because of amortisation. Crazy, crazy, and why net spend is pretty irrelevant these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Chappers said: I take it that the point is just to moan, and hope that we go back to buying in endless “names” which got us nowhere. There will be failures, but in time it will pay dividends, just be patient. My conclusion was exactly the opposite: that the philosophy is doing well and we’re bringing some good talents through with minimum expenditure! 15 minutes ago, Lucan said: Wages, signing on fees and bonuses. This is key that most people don't account for. If a transfer looks like a profit of anything less than 1m, the reality is that it's almost certainly a loss in real terms A financial loss but you’ve also gained the player’s services for the duration of their stay. If it’s a youngster who never gets near the first team then it’s just a loss but if we sign someone with arguable premier league potential for say £2 million, get a few good years of championship football out of them but they never quite meet those premier league expectations, then sell them for about what we bought them for, we’ve made a loss financially but we’ve also had the benefit of that player playing for us, so whether it was “worth it” is a lot more subjective. Hords is a good example, sold for about what we bought him for but we got a decent number of games out of him first. Whether those performances were any good/worth the money etc. is a whole different debate but it’s not as cut and dried as just looking at the finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidercity1987 Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 Market value of ODowda Brownhill and Eliasson is currently an 8 figure sum and Brownhill might fetch that on his own when he's sold this time next year, if he progresses as I anticipate next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintSaidNo Posted May 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said: Market value of ODowda Brownhill and Eliasson is currently an 8 figure sum and Brownhill might fetch that on his own when he's sold this time next year, if he progresses as I anticipate next season. Would probably agree with that. Not completely sold on Eliasson but I really rate O’Dowda and Brownhill. People say they can go missing in games but I think that’s because they’re still young and learning to understand the game so if the pattern of play doesn’t suit them they’re not as good at adapting, which is something that’ll improve with experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishRed Posted May 16, 2019 Report Share Posted May 16, 2019 My guess is that COD will be gone this summer and if we factor in wages we ain’t getting our money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 17 hours ago, bristolcitysweden said: I have done it before on here. Engvalls contract at Gothenburg was on the verge of running out and they were on the verge of going bust. Still we paid them twice the market value for his services under contract. Half the fee (600,000) ended up with a Swedish agent with his office at his home adress (pocket), with no employees or significant turnover and with no history as an agent. The money (£600,000) ended up in England. As consultant fee. From what I have heard. Do you happen to know who the alleged consultant in England was ? I was given a name but it would cause huge ructions if I mentioned it and is as usual unsubstantiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Loon plage said: Do you happen to know who the alleged consultant in England was ? I was given a name but it would cause huge ructions if I mentioned it and is as usual unsubstantiated. At least one person have been mentioned on OTIB although not by name. I have no name on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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