How much can we spend & will we spend it well?

[Unan]

From TransferMarkt so maybe not 100% accurate, but pretty close.

Kelly (13-17m?), Reid £10.22m, Flint £7.20m, Bryan £6.03m, Magnússon £2.52m, Djuric £585k = Roughly 40-44m

Additionally, at the end of 16/17 we sold Tomlin for 3m & at the end of 15/16 we sold Kodjia for 11m = Roughly 54-58m

Our incomings of note in that period have been Tomlin 3m, Fammy 5m, Magnuson 1.9m, Djuric 1.6m, Engvall 1.4m, Taylor Moore 1.5m, O'Dowda 1m, Baker 3.9m, Eliasson 1.8m, Walsh 1m, Webster 3.6m, Wiemann 2m, Eisa 1.5m, Hunt 1.5m & Watkins 1m = 31m

So in the past 3 years we've made roughly 20m profit on players and are the only club that has consistently improved over the last 5 years.

The question now is, how "bold" will we be? how "bold" can we be? and will we make the right signings?

[INCRED]

Got to be looking at a budget of £25m for purchases but wages will need to be managed within FFP

[Dunc]

If we spend the £10m we all want on JDS and Kalas, what else do we need? Quality poacher? Another CM or trust Walsh? Improve RB or stick with Hunt / Vyner? We’ve got depth in the squad. I’d like to see us go big on 4 of the above 5 positions. Quality not quantity 

[INCRED]

6 minutes ago, Lucan said:

We won’t spend that

15m maybe

Just being bold!

[Spike]

I'm both excited and concerned. With Kelly going for £13m and a decent season behind us I don't see why we can't invest but the real trouble is always going to be that striker role. We really need to find a clinical, talented striker partner Fammy upfront.
Another concern is now Kelly is gone and DaSilva and Kalas have returned we have no left back at the level we need and a hell of a quality CB to replace. If we cannot sign both Kalas and DaSilva we have 3 key players we need to sign who all need to hit the ground running.

I'll be impressed if our "bold moves" are as bold as many would like them to be. I have a feeling that we're going to be very much on a constant rebuild the way things are going right now.

[Andre_The_Giant]

Is there any scope to bring Da Silva and/or Kalas in on loan for another year? That would forego the need to shell out on transfer fees for these players and concentrate on our new striker and his wage demands

My limited (but improving) understanding of FFP rules and what they mean for City is that we’ll be in a much improved position next summer - then SL can really open his Premier League war chest and buy the necessary outright.

[Pezo]

Do we need to factor in costs of loans for FFP? I can imagine we paid over a million just to loan Kalas last season. 

[Andre_The_Giant]

2 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Do we need to factor in costs of loans for FFP? I can imagine we paid over a million just to loan Kalas last season. 

Yeah I’m sure they count.

Would be a great loophole though

[Andre_The_Giant]

Having said the above, transfer fees are broken down and spread out - “amortised” - over the life of a contract - meaning not everything counts towards that year’s accounts.

I wish I could get my head round this FFP stuff. I’m not sure where it leaves us.

[downendcity]

7 minutes ago, Andre_The_Giant said:

Having said the above, transfer fees are broken down and spread out - “amortised” - over the life of a contract - meaning not everything counts towards that year’s accounts.

I wish I could get my head round this FFP stuff. I’m not sure where it leaves us.

BIB You and the EFL!

My basic understanding is that if player is signed for £8m on a 4 year contract, the fee is amortised over the 4 years of his contract. That means the transfer fee shows on the accounts as £2m expense each year. 

The players annual wages go straight onto the accounts as  an expense.

Spread over longer term contracts,  transfer fees are relatively less of a factor against ffp than are the entirety of the players' wages bill.

[Andre_The_Giant]

1 minute ago, downendcity said:

My basic understanding is that if player is signed for £8m on a 4 year contract, the fee is amortised over the 4 years of his contract. That means the transfer fee shows on the accounts as £2m expense each year. 

The players annual wages go straight onto the accounts as  an expense.

Spread over longer term contracts,  transfer fees are relatively less of a factor against ffp than are the entirety of the players' wages bill.

Yes, very true. Wages are straight out the door aswell. With transfer fees you have a reasonable expectation of getting some or all of it back when the player is sold.

[Fontaineofallknowledge]

It’s all about wages! As mentioned transfer fees are amortised over length of contract but wages are in the FFP immediately in full! So if we did spend say £30m on 5 top quality players, their wages will be £30k per week which would cost £24m over the 3 year FFP period alone! 

Given our underlying losses are circa £15m per year (at least) and you are allowed to lose £13m a year then even with the recent sales we can’t afford to push the boat out too much!

That said I reckon we have 2 marquee signings, 3 team improvers and 3 squad improvers in us at this point, with more if we sell COD or trade others..exciting summer ahead!

[WarksRobin]

We need to make a good profit on player sales each year to offset our operating losses as we aim to become sustainable. We won’t spend all of the income from player sales; maybe 20% to 25% will be reinvested.

[A Horse With No Name]

53 minutes ago, Andre_The_Giant said:

Is there any scope to bring Da Silva and/or Kalas in on loan for another year? That would forego the need to shell out on transfer fees for these players and concentrate on our new striker and his wage demands

My limited (but improving) understanding of FFP rules and what they mean for City is that we’ll be in a much improved position next summer - then SL can really open his Premier League war chest and buy the necessary outright.

Arent Chelsea only allowed to loan out a handful of players next season ? If so, it would be very highly unlikely that we would get two of them.Plus, I think Kalas wants a Perm move somewhere.

[Andre_The_Giant]

12 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Arent Chelsea only allowed to loan out a handful of players next season ? If so, it would be very highly unlikely that we would get two of them.Plus, I think Kalas wants a Perm move somewhere.

The new loan rules, if they go through, are set to apply from the 2020-21 season. Even then, there are exemptions for youngsters and “homegrown” players which would apply to the vast majority of their exiled loanees.

Yes, you’re right, Kalas has made it clear he wants a perm move. I’m not confident we’ll get either of them tbh. Leaves quite a hole at left back.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, WarksRobin said:

We need to make a good profit on player sales each year to offset our operating losses as we aim to become sustainable. We won’t spend all of the income from player sales; maybe 20% to 25% will be reinvested.

Interesting point this.

Sustainable is an interesting thing- you can't do it at Championship in terms of £0 losses, not in this League as it is and move forward- and eventually you'll start going backwards.

Now do we mean sustainable in the sense of within FFP regs- subject to SL financing up to the limit of course, or do we mean sustainable in terms of actual breakeven?

Because if it is the latter, don't think it can be done at this level over any sustained period of time- my definition of sustainable is limiting the losses and staying within the 3 year FFP limit- at least in this League.

[WarksRobin]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting point this.

Sustainable is an interesting thing- you can't do it at Championship in terms of £0 losses, not in this League as it is and move forward- and eventually you'll start going backwards.

Now do we mean sustainable in the sense of within FFP regs- subject to SL financing up to the limit of course, or do we mean sustainable in terms of actual breakeven?

Because if it is the latter, don't think it can be done at this level over any sustained period of time- my definition of sustainable is limiting the losses and staying within the 3 year FFP limit- at least in this League.

Good point. It would be interesting to know what SL means when he says the aspiration is for the club to run sustainably. I always took it to mean breaking even but you’re correct that in terms of FFP it could mean being competitive and working within the restrictions.

[INCRED]

3 minutes ago, WarksRobin said:

Good point. It would be interesting to know what SL means when he says the aspiration is for the club to run sustainably. I always took it to mean breaking even but you’re correct that in terms of FFP it could mean being competitive and working within the restrictions.

I think you are spot on, sustainable means working within the FFP rules but also moving the club forward that is why the stadium redevelopment was so crucial and improving income through not only larger crowds but maximising the corporate entertainment as well as using as a 7 day a week facility

The turnover and income is now being maximised to enhance the clubs sustainability and I am sure I seen somewhere that our annual income was around £20m last season so would expect it to have exceeded in this years accounts but still working within a nett loss over a 3 year period but well within FFP rules 

I don’t ever think we will be at a point of making a profit or breaking even unless we had a sustained period in the premier league 

[WarksRobin]

2 minutes ago, INCRED said:

I think you are spot on, sustainable means working within the FFP rules but also moving the club forward that is why the stadium redevelopment was so crucial and improving income through not only larger crowds but maximising the corporate entertainment as well as using as a 7 day a week facility

The turnover and income is now being maximised to enhance the clubs sustainability and I am sure I seen somewhere that our annual income was around £20m last season so would expect it to have exceeded in this years accounts but still working within a nett loss over a 3 year period but well within FFP rules 

I don’t ever think we will be at a point of making a profit or breaking even unless we had a sustained period in the premier league 

Credit to @Mr Popodopolous. In one sense FFP encourages clubs to act irresponsibly because even if you can break even, you are allowed to make an annual loss so why wouldn’t you spend more than you earn.

[ChippenhamRed]

14 hours ago, Lucan said:

We won’t spend that

15m maybe

You don’t know that.

We’ve just got £13m for one player. LJ has made pretty bold statements about this summer and we are now a club regularly knocking on the door of the play offs. It’s obvious that substantial investment is needed to get us to the next level of quality we need.

Assuming no other players leave (which they probably will), and given that we haven’t spent everything gained from last summer’s sales, a £12m net outlay isn’t out of the question in my opinion. Particularly in today’s transfer market, where that isn’t actually much at all.

[City fan 1982]

Why not do what everyone else is ? Sell the ground to Maggie and lease it back. 

[RedM]

I’m pretty sure prices will be raised as clubs know we have money, they are certain now if not before. I don’t think we will be held to ransom and won’t pay top money so I can see dealings difficult and people being disappointed.

[Natchfever]

15 hours ago, Dunc said:

If we spend the £10m we all want on JDS and Kalas, what else do we need? Quality poacher? Another CM or trust Walsh? Improve RB or stick with Hunt / Vyner? We’ve got depth in the squad. I’d like to see us go big on 4 of the above 5 positions. Quality not quantity 

Bearing in mind the value of Lloyd Kelly Dasilva will cost at least that now.

[The Bard]

18 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Bearing in mind the value of Lloyd Kelly Dasilva will cost at least that now.

I think JDS won't cost much for the simple reason that Chelsea will have to sell a lot of their loaned players due to the rules about number of players you can loan out. I suspect we'll get him cheapish and but with a buyback written into the agreement.

[Kingswood Robin]

14 hours ago, Andre_The_Giant said:

The new loan rules, if they go through, are set to apply from the 2020-21 season. Even then, there are exemptions for youngsters and “homegrown” players which would apply to the vast majority of their exiled loanees.

Yes, you’re right, Kalas has made it clear he wants a perm move. I’m not confident we’ll get either of them tbh. Leaves quite a hole at left back.

Surely we could sort that for him to sweeten the deal

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

We’ve just got £13m for one player. LJ has made pretty bold statements about this summer and we are now a club regularly knocking on the door of the play offs. It’s obvious that substantial investment is needed to get us to the next level of quality we need.

Assuming no other players leave (which they probably will), and given that we haven’t spent everything gained from last summer’s sales, a £12m net outlay isn’t out of the question in my opinion. Particularly in today’s transfer market, where that isn’t actually much at all.

CoD will be off so the revenue from that sale be added to the £13m already.....and LJ did say recently that he was planning to be ‘bold’ this summer so it’s looking like a really interesting window.

Most of us that watch City can see where the squad needs strengthening. Goalkeeper, left back, creative midfielder and up top and absolutely no doubt at all that LJ can see that as well.Those positions will have been identified and top of the shopping list.

As for Kalas wanting PL football......he’s a very useful Championship CB but when he played for his country both Sterling and Kane tore him a new arsehole.......PL quality he ain’t........

 

[And Its Smith]

I think the budget was £10m ish and not we have sold Kelly it will be £20m

We can buy CB, LB, CM and ST with that and will be better

[Unan]

Let Kalas go, get Clarke from Pompey at 4m (maybe?).

Get Jay Dasilva.

That leaves us with a quality CM, striker & a decent RB to get, IMO.

Sell O'Dowda & we will need another winger, possibly a quality one.

2/3 quality signings & two 'good' signings & I think we will have a very strong team.

[Kingswood Robin]

4 minutes ago, Unan said:

Let Kalas go, get Clarke from Pompey at 4m (maybe?).

Get Jay Dasilva.

That leaves us with a quality CM, striker & a decent RB to get, IMO.

Sell O'Dowda & we will need another winger, possibly a quality one.

2/3 quality signings & two 'good' signings & I think we will have a very strong team.

Add a keeper and that's seven players needed, better get cracking!

[Unan]

1 minute ago, Kingswood Robin said:

Add a keeper and that's seven players needed, better get cracking!

Or 4 key players, in my ideal world we'd get a top quality Striker,  RB, CB and CM and that'd be it. I'm sure it won't pan out that way.