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reddogkev

Should we recruit a D.O.F?

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To help LJ and the coaching staff fight for promotion?

This could be the missing link.  I'd go for Chris Hughton, or push the boat out and get someone else on a higher salary with top experience.  Does FFP restrict the amount of wages SL could offer to a non-playing member of staff?

It's time to show serious intent to reach the Premier League, and as much as I love LJ, I have doubts that his efforts, coupled with the relatively inexperienced duo of Holden and Macillister, are up for the challenge of promotion.

There are clearly negatives and positives to such an idea, but overall, if the right man came in and LJ was in 100% agreement, it could be just what the club needs.

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And before anyone mentions him, I don't see Mark Ashton already doing this role, for me, he is purely a commercial / business exec man.

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Joe Jordan?

Experienced- knows the club, contacts aplenty- ex manager but presumably no ambitions to get back into it. Spent time in Italy too as a player so may have some links into their market too.

If not as DoF, on the coaching staff? Think would be an idea worthy of serious consideration- but as DoF? Think it has a lot of positive points...

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21 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

To help LJ and the coaching staff fight for promotion?

This could be the missing link.  I'd go for Chris Hughton, or push the boat out and get someone else on a higher salary with top experience.  Does FFP restrict the amount of wages SL could offer to a non-playing member of staff?

It's time to show serious intent to reach the Premier League, and as much as I love LJ, I have doubts that his efforts, coupled with the relatively inexperienced duo of Holden and Macillister, are up for the challenge of promotion.

There are clearly negatives and positives to such an idea, but overall, if the right man came in and LJ was in 100% agreement, it could be just what the club needs.

No I don't think so. Could be more disruptive than helpful.

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The other problem thinking about it with a DoF is you have to be very careful about who you choose.

Now that goes for recruitment in general of course, but with a DoF- if you have someone like Hughton who still surely has managerial ambitions, that could go very wrong, very quickly.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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No unless Mark Ashton leaves and then we would have to review the set up.

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I'll say what I always say on these threads.

All of the clubs that make a Director of Football role work well - Barcelona, Real, Bayern etc. appoint a specialist Director of Football who wants to do that job, rather than someone who has never been a Director of Football and has shown no interest in the role but is interested in managing and could undermine the manager's job.

If LJ ever left, Chris Hughton might be a good choice of manager. But Hughton has never been a Director of Football and there is no evidence he would want to do it or has the skills for it. Ditto Joe Jordan. If you want to appoint either of them as manager, sack the bloody manager and appoint them but it is utterly foolish to make them a square peg in a round hole. If we ever get a Director of Football, I want it to be someone who I've never heard of who has a track record of doing a fantastic job behind the scenes. Not someone who wants to be managing.

I also don't think we need to disrupt the structure at the moment. 

 

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52 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

To help LJ and the coaching staff fight for promotion?

This could be the missing link.  I'd go for Chris Hughton, or push the boat out and get someone else on a higher salary with top experience.  Does FFP restrict the amount of wages SL could offer to a non-playing member of staff?

It's time to show serious intent to reach the Premier League, and as much as I love LJ, I have doubts that his efforts, coupled with the relatively inexperienced duo of Holden and Macillister, are up for the challenge of promotion.

There are clearly negatives and positives to such an idea, but overall, if the right man came in and LJ was in 100% agreement, it could be just what the club needs.

I don't believe LJ would appreciate someone effectively being his superior in terms of position, and if you're mentioning someone like Chris Hughton, knowledge also.

That being the case, I can't see it happening.

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Mark Ashton is pretty much our D.O.F. Oversees recruitment/scouting, negotiating  the deals, overseeing training ground improvements etc. He just has a different job title and other extra added responsibilities 

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21 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'll say what I always say on these threads.

All of the clubs that make a Director of Football role work well - Barcelona, Real, Bayern etc. appoint a specialist Director of Football who wants to do that job, rather than someone who has never been a Director of Football and has shown no interest in the role but is interested in managing and could undermine the manager's job.

If LJ ever left, Chris Hughton might be a good choice of manager. But Hughton has never been a Director of Football and there is no evidence he would want to do it or has the skills for it. Ditto Joe Jordan. If you want to appoint either of them as manager, sack the bloody manager and appoint them but it is utterly foolish to make them a square peg in a round hole. If we ever get a Director of Football, I want it to be someone who I've never heard of who has a track record of doing a fantastic job behind the scenes. Not someone who wants to be managing.

I also don't think we need to disrupt the structure at the moment. 

 

Agree...though I think Joe Jordan would by dint of him seemingly having no real managerial ambitions would be more suitable than Hughton who is in prime managerial age.

Jordan would be a good addition to the coaching staff though, I am sure of that. May have contacts here and in Italy to help us with an edge in the market as well.

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17 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

What is the role of a director of football?

They direct the football and look after the boardroom drinks cabinet.

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree...though I think Joe Jordan would by dint of him seemingly having no real managerial ambitions would be more suitable than Hughton who is in prime managerial age.

Jordan would be a good addition to the coaching staff though, I am sure of that. May have contacts here and in Italy to help us with an edge in the market as well.

I agree Jordan would be a great addition to the coaching staff and would definitely be someone to look at if LJ and his team wanted someone with more experience and a connection to the club. 

I suppose the issue for me is we are talking about three very different roles. Football management is about winning games, getting the right player for this season and getting a tactical edge on the pitch. A Director of Football is about the long-term strategy and identify of the club, identifying a long-term plan that ensures the club still has good talent coming through in fifteen years and planning ahead. And a coach is someone who can work with people on a one-to-one basis.

They are three very different roles needing very different skills. You can be great at coaching an individual but terrible at managing a team. You can be great at managing a team but terrible at overseeing a long-term strategy. And you can be great at the long-term stuff but not have a clue how to coach someone on a football pitch.

Far too often people seem to think someone who is good at coaching can do the manager role or someone good at the manager role can do the DoF role. And the DoF role in particular tends to present it some sort of compromise because they sort of want a more experienced manager and sort of want the one they have. But it isn't a matter of experience but personal attributes.

If we wanted a Director of Football, the club should identify the skills they want and try to find someone who matches those skills. It just frustrates me when people say "we should appoint x as a Director of Football because they are a good manager" without recognising completely different skills are involved. 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Joe Jordan?

Experienced- knows the club, contacts aplenty- ex manager but presumably no ambitions to get back into it. Spent time in Italy too as a player so may have some links into their market too.

If not as DoF, on the coaching staff? Think would be an idea worthy of serious consideration- but as DoF? Think it has a lot of positive points...

Met Joe Jordan on the weekend. He was down the Gate so maybe it's already happening... ?

Or more likely just because he was guest speaker at Ashton girls/boys presentation day... cracking event!

He came accross very well and still clearly has a bit of love for City.

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If we actually did go down the DoF route we should in my opinion go for someone who has either done it elsewhere, or worked closely alongside a successful one.

A DoF should oversee the entire playing side of a club from the Academy upwards and should be accountable for player and staff recruitment and retention.

That would tend to lead us towards someone from the continent, but as I said earlier I don't think LJ would like that one bit because whatever he may be called, he is a manager in the traditional English mould rather than a continental coach who works with the players he is given. A DoF would naturally cut across the English manager role which is why it hasn't really worked here (happy to stand corrected on that)

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46 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'll say what I always say on these threads.

All of the clubs that make a Director of Football role work well - Barcelona, Real, Bayern etc. appoint a specialist Director of Football who wants to do that job, rather than someone who has never been a Director of Football and has shown no interest in the role but is interested in managing and could undermine the manager's job.

If LJ ever left, Chris Hughton might be a good choice of manager. But Hughton has never been a Director of Football and there is no evidence he would want to do it or has the skills for it. Ditto Joe Jordan. If you want to appoint either of them as manager, sack the bloody manager and appoint them but it is utterly foolish to make them a square peg in a round hole. If we ever get a Director of Football, I want it to be someone who I've never heard of who has a track record of doing a fantastic job behind the scenes. Not someone who wants to be managing.

I also don't think we need to disrupt the structure at the moment. 

 

I agree, it is a specialism in itself and not necessarily just a step from being a Manager.

36 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

What is the role of a director of football?

The biggest key of all, a Job Profile would need to be created and clear lines drawn between, that persons role and that of the Manager and in our case the finance role that Mark Ashton has. It would be a very difficult post to set up and avoid stepping on the toes of the existing roles. 

I often wonder if the tasks that would be covered by the roles are currently split between the three roles that LJ, Macca and Holden hold and BT's youth role. I get the impression that Macca and Holden are mu h more than just coaching staff. 

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We need someone with a love for Bristol City

Someone with a lifelong connection to the club

Someone who is unafraid to give an opinion - even though they know little or nothing about the subject 

Someone who has had a successful career (and never fails to mention it) 

Someone with time (too much time)  on their hands

Someone who will stand up to the manager .....(well maybe not - you can't have everything!)

Someone not afraid to tackle any job .....even driving the team minibus  if necessary

 

only one man for the job..................Robbored !!

 

and the icing on the cake is he'll be too busy to post on OTIB

 

 

 

Edited by CodeRed
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55 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I agree, it is a specialism in itself and not necessarily just a step from being a Manager.

The biggest key of all, a Job Profile would need to be created and clear lines drawn between, that persons role and that of the Manager and in our case the finance role that Mark Ashton has. It would be a very difficult post to set up and avoid stepping on the toes of the existing roles. 

I often wonder if the tasks that would be covered by the roles are currently split between the three roles that LJ, Macca and Holden hold and BT's youth role. I get the impression that Macca and Holden are mu h more than just coaching staff. 

I think the last bit is a key point. We know LJ and BT are ensuring all teams from the young kids up are playing with the same style and philosophy and we know MA is ensuring the scouting teams have a long list of possible targets and contingencies in all positions, negotiating contracts and ensuring we sell players for as much as we think we can get for them. I imagine SL and MA have contingency plans in place to ensure continuity in the event of a change of a manager.

I am genuinely unsure what it is that the OP feels we should be doing that we are not doing and a DofF would do. It seems like what he is pushing for is a mentor or advisor to LJ but that is a very different thing to a Director of Football and doesn’t need to be a formal role within the club. And it might be something he has already.

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DOF at a club can mean so many different things, depending on the Club. And some Clubs have a few few DOF...not just one.

The main point of a DOF is to be the go between. From Coach to Board.

Within our own Club, right now, we have a very healthy environment, where Coaches, CEO and Board members and owner can all speak freely with one another.

LJ and all his coaching staff concentrate on the footballing side of things. MA as CEO acts as go between and deals with everything financial...budgets, contracts, negotiations etc. He's also a Board member...which as a go between is unusual imo.

The Club has decided on its structure and how it will run, both financially and in recruitment, type of player 'dna', and to extent a way of playing.

I still think we are evolving. Still finding our way a little. So things change. It will change even further if we were to get promotion. Then further if relegated or established. Continual tweeks depending on circumstance.

With a Dof...you need someone totally compliant, with an understanding and good relationship with board, owner, it's fan base and traditions of Club.

The ideal scenario imo, is that we stuck with LJ... hopefully had seasons ahead together...gaining Promotion and becoming established.

If it became stale...who better to become Dofs than LJ and BT. Keeping 'our way' going...with someone else coming in as coach.

Just a thought 😉

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11 hours ago, Judda said:

Met Joe Jordan on the weekend. He was down the Gate so maybe it's already happening... ?

Or more likely just because he was guest speaker at Ashton girls/boys presentation day... cracking event!

He came accross very well and still clearly has a bit of love for City.

I was told Louis Carey was the guest of honour at that evening - were they both there? Cracking duo if so ...

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If we go down this route - Neil Warnock or Joe Jordan please - but only one would even be considered, and it wouldn’t be the one with eight promotions on his cv ....! Just joshing, thought I’d point that out before the hilarious ones who call him ‘Colin’ jump in ....

Edited by BS4 on Tour...

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12 hours ago, reddogkev said:

To help LJ and the coaching staff fight for promotion?

This could be the missing link.  I'd go for Chris Hughton, or push the boat out and get someone else on a higher salary with top experience.  Does FFP restrict the amount of wages SL could offer to a non-playing member of staff?

It's time to show serious intent to reach the Premier League, and as much as I love LJ, I have doubts that his efforts, coupled with the relatively inexperienced duo of Holden and Macillister, are up for the challenge of promotion.

There are clearly negatives and positives to such an idea, but overall, if the right man came in and LJ was in 100% agreement, it could be just what the club needs.

I think that this window will show just why City don’t need a DoF.

The scouting network is excellent. All the senior staff at AG have different contacts throughout the football industry and it’s been working well enough without a DoF.

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Could be a good shout, would end the selections of favourites ahead of ability,  unfortunately this is the area where LJ lets us down, we also need to be a bit more savi with formation, love Fammy to bits but he is not the 9 that can deal with the lump it forward play, unfair to him and us, needs support and the players that should be that support are the current 20 and 10 and neither of them are good enough, a DOF would have directed a size 10 at LJ’s rear end and sorted it!

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The most pertinent point in the OP was at the end ‘if...LJ is in 100% agreement. A DOF can only ever work with the full backing of the manager, otherwise it’s a disruptive situation. Personally I don’t like them, and with the structure we currently have at City I don’t think we either need or want such a position. We’ve had 5 years of improvement so leave well alone. 

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11 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the last bit is a key point. We know LJ and BT are ensuring all teams from the young kids up are playing with the same style and philosophy 

Teams from the kids to U teams to the XI don't play with the same style. It's hard to judge what the clubs philosophy is unless it was available for fans to read - coaching and playing philosophy differs through age and play related phases. 

 

Edited by Cowshed

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7 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Teams from the kids to U teams to the XI don't play with the same style. It's hard to judge what the clubs philosophy is unless it was available for fans to read - coaching and playing philosophy differs through age and play related phases. 

 

I was going off what LJ says toward to end of this article. I have no doubt the youth teams do not play the exact same way but there is an attempt to embed an approach and a type of football from at least the under twelves up, which is a similar approach Cruyuff took when he transformed Barcelona, although I fear we may not see the exact same results.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/lee-johnson-bristol-city-oldham-athletic/

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22 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I agree Jordan would be a great addition to the coaching staff and would definitely be someone to look at if LJ and his team wanted someone with more experience and a connection to the club. 

I suppose the issue for me is we are talking about three very different roles. Football management is about winning games, getting the right player for this season and getting a tactical edge on the pitch. A Director of Football is about the long-term strategy and identify of the club, identifying a long-term plan that ensures the club still has good talent coming through in fifteen years and planning ahead. And a coach is someone who can work with people on a one-to-one basis.

They are three very different roles needing very different skills. You can be great at coaching an individual but terrible at managing a team. You can be great at managing a team but terrible at overseeing a long-term strategy. And you can be great at the long-term stuff but not have a clue how to coach someone on a football pitch.

Far too often people seem to think someone who is good at coaching can do the manager role or someone good at the manager role can do the DoF role. And the DoF role in particular tends to present it some sort of compromise because they sort of want a more experienced manager and sort of want the one they have. But it isn't a matter of experience but personal attributes.

If we wanted a Director of Football, the club should identify the skills they want and try to find someone who matches those skills. It just frustrates me when people say "we should appoint x as a Director of Football because they are a good manager" without recognising completely different skills are involved. 

Appreciate your comments, that was a good read.  Clear that you have a better understanding of the DOF role than I do, that's for sure!  My main point is that another member of staff to assist with all aspects of football management, surely has to be a good move forward for the club, as I'd have to presume it would lower some of the work load on the shoulders of Lee and the coaches.

If I was SL, I would 100% employ another person to help share the burden of tasks, including assisting with the scouting of untapped continental talent

For what it's worth, I can't see the club going down this path, but for me, it would be a smart move.

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3 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I was going off what LJ says toward to end of this article. I have no doubt the youth teams do not play the exact same way but there is an attempt to embed an approach and a type of football from at least the under twelves up, which is a similar approach Cruyuff took when he transformed Barcelona, although I fear we may not see the exact same results.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/lee-johnson-bristol-city-oldham-athletic/

Bristol City share similarities with many clubs in approach because modern approaches adopt similar methodologies.

Barca is not a great comparison. Their philosophy and principles of play, it's models are part of the club and are existing long terms. We will be guessing how Mr Johnson will approach next season ... It's quite different.

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11 hours ago, Robbored said:

I think that this window will show just why City don’t need a DoF.

The scouting network is excellent. All the senior staff at AG have different contacts throughout the football industry and it’s been working well enough without a DoF.

I think it could still do with improvement personally. Not a criticism but consistent improvement in all areas should be- I'm sure is- but definitely should be an aim.

To take one example, why do we not have a dedicated foreign scout for example- i.e. someone with experience of European football, experience, knowledge and contacts therein. Mathieu Louis Jean was one- helped us with Kodja I believe and he left in 2016 and still unreplaced- think we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily here.

Mervyn Day overseeing the whole thing- well fair enough he knows the English game, but stats aside how much does he know about overseas market e.g.?

It seems like a bit of a work in progress and that infrastructure etc all being fast-tracked somewhat as we are and have been playing catchup but Scouting and Recruitment is definitely an area that needs some work I feel- it's alright and at times very good but we need to be upgrading the poor to so-so and the alright to very good more often IMO. A wider range of staff with expertise in different areas would surely help.

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23 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

What is the role of a director of football?

To be an additional whipping boy ( alongside LJ, MA and SL) for OTIB when things go pear shaped?

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If finances dictated that we could either afford a director of football or that 20 goal a season striker, which option would fans then chose?

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40 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think it could still do with improvement personally. Not a criticism but consistent improvement in all areas should be- I'm sure is- but definitely should be an aim.

To take one example, why do we not have a dedicated foreign scout for example- i.e. someone with experience of European football, experience, knowledge and contacts therein. Mathieu Louis Jean was one- helped us with Kodja I believe and he left in 2016 and still unreplaced- think we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily here.

Mervyn Day overseeing the whole thing- well fair enough he knows the English game, but stats aside how much does he know about overseas market e.g.?

It seems like a bit of a work in progress and that infrastructure etc all being fast-tracked somewhat as we are and have been playing catchup but Scouting and Recruitment is definitely an area that needs some work I feel- it's alright and at times very good but we need to be upgrading the poor to so-so and the alright to very good more often IMO. A wider range of staff with expertise in different areas would surely help.

Mervyn Day has a good knowledge of International football. He's been doing it a long time, formerly head of Recruitment at West Brom, Brighton and Leeds. 

I understand they are looking still to recruit a head International scout and interviews have taken place, but still not published whether they have decided on one yet. Applications were closed for the advertised job quite a while back.

My gut is that they have approached people, as who applied weren't considered what we wanted. Hence it taking longer.

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33 minutes ago, downendcity said:

If finances dictated that we could either afford a director of football or that 20 goal a season striker, which option would fans then chose?

I can't imagine their respective salaries would be remotely comparable to be honest but of course fans would choose a striker. If however that striker signed specifically because of the DoF we had in place then there might be room for both.

Edited by Loon plage

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14 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I was told Louis Carey was the guest of honour at that evening - were they both there? Cracking duo if so ...

Carey was evening and Joe did the afternoon... Great choices. 

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