Young Players Improve

[And Its Smith]

There is a hell of a lot of fans who don’t seem to understand that youngsters improve. Comments like “if he isn’t good enough at 21 then he never will be” are naive at best.

Players like Moore and Vyner are centre backs still very early in their career and will not peak for a few more years yet.

Centre backs and goalkeepers especially take longer to mature and develop but it’s the case for all positions. 

I could write a huge list of players that were playing at one level when they were 20/21/22/23 and then went on to perform at a much higher level. 

Here is a short list that fans might want to remember when they write off our youngsters and consistently say we should get rid.

Riyad Mahrez - formerly a decent winger for Le Havre. Improved to become a double premier league winner and player of the season

Virgil Van Dyke - Groningen centre back at 22 who has gone on to be the best centre back in the Premier League, and some say the world

Aden Flint - I believe he hadn’t played league football at 20. Soon became a superb player for us and left for £7m

Ngolo Kanye - at 21 he couldn’t get in Boulogne’s team

Jamie Vardy - played for Stockbridge at 23 year old

Adrian Basso - signed from Woking at 29

Yannick Bolasie - improved immeasurably after leaving us at 22 years of age

As a fan base we need to believe in the youngsters, trust the coaches to help them improve and encourage them when they get game time.

[simon uk]

Agree to some extent, but thats 7 examples where it works, and there are double that from our own club over the last few years who havent worked out.

if semenyo and Bakinson are clearly different level than any of the other youth players, then the club is right to move out the ones who arent likely to make it.

edit,, and the 1 million plus transfer fees shouldnt be paid for youth players unless its very clear they are potential top end championship players.

[steviestevieneville]

Young players also level out and progression stops. I’ll wait and see what LJ  does in the summer. If you listened to him tonight then it doesn’t sound like ZV and TM will be anywhere near the squad next season. 

[And Its Smith]

6 minutes ago, simon uk said:

Agree to some extent, but thats 7 examples where it works, and there are double that from our own club over the last few years who havent worked out.

if semenyo and Bakinson are clearly different level than any of the other youth players, then the club is right to move out the ones who arent likely to make it.

edit,, and the 1 million plus transfer fees shouldnt be paid for youth players unless its very clear they are potential top end championship players.

Seven examples. Could have listed loads more. If a player is clearly going to be at the level you mention then he will cost more than £1m. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

22 minutes ago, RedDave said:

There is a hell of a lot of fans who don’t seem to understand that youngsters improve. Comments like “if he isn’t good enough at 21 then he never will be” are naive at best.

Players like Moore and Vyner are centre backs still very early in their career and will not peak for a few more years yet.

Centre backs and goalkeepers especially take longer to mature and develop but it’s the case for all positions. 

I could write a huge list of players that were playing at one level when they were 20/21/22/23 and then went on to perform at a much higher level. 

Here is a short list that fans might want to remember when they write off our youngsters and consistently say we should get rid.

Riyad Mahrez - formerly a decent winger for Le Havre. Improved to become a double premier league winner and player of the season

Virgil Van Dyke - Groningen centre back at 22 who has gone on to be the best centre back in the Premier League, and some say the world

Aden Flint - I believe he hadn’t played league football at 20. Soon became a superb player for us and left for £7m

Ngolo Kanye - at 21 he couldn’t get in Boulogne’s team

Jamie Vardy - played for Stockbridge at 23 year old

Adrian Basso - signed from Woking at 29

Yannick Bolasie - improved immeasurably after leaving us at 22 years of age

As a fan base we need to believe in the youngsters, trust the coaches to help them improve and encourage them when they get game time.

Random list and a bit selective, but not all ‘youngsters’ take a long time to make an impact .... for balance:

Michael Owen played and scored in the World Cup when he was 18

Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain-Chamberlain played and scored in the champions league when he was 18

Karim Benzema played and scored in the champions league when he was 17

Aaron Ramsey played and scored in the champions league when he was 17 

Cesc Fabregas played and scored in the champions league when he was 17 

I know some players come good ‘later’ than others (Ian Wright is one of my fave examples) but there are loads of examples of youngsters who can make a pretty quick impact at a very young age ... and reading my post back to myself, I’m not even sure it’s relevant to this thread! Sorry!

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Random list and a bit selective, but not all ‘youngsters’ take a long time to make an impact .... for balance:

Michael Owen played and scored in the World Cup when he was 18

Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain-Chamberlain played and scored in the champions league when he was 18

Karim Benzema played and scored in the champions league when he was 17

Aaron Ramsey played and scored in the champions league when he was 17 

Cesc Fabregas played and scored in the champions league when he was 17 

I know some players come good ‘later’ than others (Ian Wright is one of my fave examples) but there are loads of examples of youngsters who can make a pretty quick impact at a very young age ...

Other than Owen, all of those players improved from that point. Proving my point. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 minute ago, RedDave said:

Other than Owen, all of those players improved from that point. Proving my point. 

I’d say Owen improved from the age of 18 - but I edited my post - you may laugh or agree more with my edit!

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, Lucan said:

Interesting to note that two of those (Owen and Fabregas) has careers that petered out a little early too

Fabregas is 32 and played at the very top level for 15 years - is that ‘petering out’ ?

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

4 minutes ago, Lucan said:

This has to be the single most biased, badly evidenced post on the history of OTIB (and that’s saying something)

Wes Burns

John Akinde

Andre Blackman

Danny Haynes

Are just as valid examples of youngsters who career stagnated or went backwards in their early 20’s

 

 

 

 

Hardly the greatest examples either. Akinde was a mistake being nothing like ready to make the jump to the league from Ebbsfleet. Andre Blackmans problem was that he was an immature prat. 

The fact is that there are countless examples either way, so you can’t just set an arbitrary age like some form of footballing euthanasia but you have to trust the judgement of your club to persevere or get rid. Inevitably not every decision will be the right one. 

[And Its Smith]

13 minutes ago, Lucan said:

This has to be the single most biased, badly evidenced post on the history of OTIB (and that’s saying something)

Wes Burns

John Akinde

Andre Blackman

Danny Haynes

Are just as valid examples of youngsters who career stagnated or went backwards in their early 20’s

 

 

 

 

Wes Burns has just won player of the season at a league one club. Seems like he has improved to me! 

Akinde has improved as well. Just spearheaded Lincoln to promotion hasn’t he?

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Lucan said:

A little early, as I said.  He has only played a handful of times this year and was far from his best  in 17-18. He hasn’t played for Spain since he turned 30 either and was not in their squad for the World Cup. Not a disgrace, but definitely petering out

Let’s snap him up! 

I don’t think you get my original post. 

Burns and Akinde have improved, as MOST youngsters do. 

[Tipps69]

34 minutes ago, simon uk said:

Agree to some extent, but thats 7 examples where it works, and there are double that from our own club over the last few years who havent worked out.

if semenyo and Bakinson are clearly different level than any of the other youth players, then the club is right to move out the ones who arent likely to make it.

edit,, and the 1 million plus transfer fees shouldnt be paid for youth players unless its very clear they are potential top end championship players.

But the thing being, £1m for a player now isn’t a lot of money, that’s why top players are now going for well over £100m.

£13m for a 20 year old with roughly 50 first team games at a level below where he’s just signed for, is being described as clever business by Bournemouth.

The price of a ‘punt’ has gone up.

[Lrrr]

On Vyner and Moore, playing as RB's similarly to Kelly playing as a left back but potentially all 3 seen as CB's in their future. Just Moore/Vyner starting at a lower level where championship may be their peak where Kelly started in the championship moving up to premier league.

[Davefevs]

I think there is a theme that in a lot of cases young players do not mature physically to the level required these days until a bit later.

As you say RD - if you haven’t made it by age x, then you never will is outdated.  I think you can add a couple of years to x these days.  The demands of the Pro game have meant fewer “normal” youngsters are breaking through as early as previously.  There are exceptions, e.g. Clarke at Leeds, but in the main it’s later, even more so for defenders, especially CBs.

So Moore and Vyner still have time, the difference is that City have moved on at a quicker rate than they have.  If this was 15/16 season and Vyner was 22 then, you’d expect him to get a bit more game time in a struggling new-to-Champ team.  However we are challenging for play-offs and that requires better players.

8 minutes ago, Lucan said:

In fact, just look at the profile of players like this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtis_(footballer,_born_1978)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_N'Gog

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Spearing

Players who were assumed to have huge potential... and ultimately fail at level after level

Oh and James Wilson says hi too

 

 

Antony Le Tallec

[Jcolebristol]

Yeh I think the Rose and Caulker season is a great example.

Rose would’ve been 20/21 when he was with us and If judged on his performances at this level, I’d would’ve said didn’t have a chance of Prem first team.

Caulker I would’ve said the opposite though. 

Not every player has to prove themselves by 21. But I imagine that half the judgement of their potential must come from the training ground.

Walsh surely wouldn’t be on the books if he wasn’t showing some great potential off the pitch, worthy of seeing if that trajectory continues. He’s had a few chances to show some brilliance but it’s so early. It’s probably fairer to say he’s got the term of his contract to establish himself in the first team, by which point then you can consider writing them off.

[steviestevieneville]

7 hours ago, RedDave said:

I don’t think you get my original post. 

Burns and Akinde have improved, as MOST youngsters do. 

Undermining your own argument if we’d burns has progressed he be doing it in the championship because that’s where he was with us not league 1. The same with akinde. It’s a random statement to say MOST youngsters progress. You’d need to list hundreds to get a true balance. 1 in a thousand kids progress to make it as a pro footballer which actually blows your statement out of the water. 

[And Its Smith]

7 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Undermining your own argument if we’d burns has progressed he be doing it in the championship because that’s where he was with us not league 1. The same with akinde. It’s a random statement to say MOST youngsters progress. You’d need to list hundreds to get a true balance. 1 in a thousand kids progress to make it as a pro footballer which actually blows your statement out of the water. 

Not talking about level. Talking about ability. Burns is better now than when he was with us. He’s improved. 

He wasnt ‘doing it’ in the Championship as he wasn’t getting in the team and performing well. 

Wouldnt have thought this was going to be so tricky to explain!

[And Its Smith]

20 minutes ago, Jcolebristol said:

Yeh I think the Rose and Caulker season is a great example.

Rose would’ve been 20/21 when he was with us and If judged on his performances at this level, I’d would’ve said didn’t have a chance of Prem first team.

Caulker I would’ve said the opposite though. 

Not every player has to prove themselves by 21. But I imagine that half the judgement of their potential must come from the training ground.

Walsh surely wouldn’t be on the books if he wasn’t showing some great potential off the pitch, worthy of seeing if that trajectory continues. He’s had a few chances to show some brilliance but it’s so early. It’s probably fairer to say he’s got the term of his contract to establish himself in the first team, by which point then you can consider writing them off.

Rose is another excellent example. Was roundly slagged off by City fans when he was here and then improved.

Caulker improved as well but then had the unfortunate hurdle of alcohol in his life. 

There were fans at the time who said Rose wouldn’t make it in the Championship even! 

[Natchfever]

8 hours ago, RedDave said:

There is a hell of a lot of fans who don’t seem to understand that youngsters improve. Comments like “if he isn’t good enough at 21 then he never will be” are naive at best.

Players like Moore and Vyner are centre backs still very early in their career and will not peak for a few more years yet.

Centre backs and goalkeepers especially take longer to mature and develop but it’s the case for all positions. 

I could write a huge list of players that were playing at one level when they were 20/21/22/23 and then went on to perform at a much higher level. 

Here is a short list that fans might want to remember when they write off our youngsters and consistently say we should get rid.

Riyad Mahrez - formerly a decent winger for Le Havre. Improved to become a double premier league winner and player of the season

Virgil Van Dyke - Groningen centre back at 22 who has gone on to be the best centre back in the Premier League, and some say the world

Aden Flint - I believe he hadn’t played league football at 20. Soon became a superb player for us and left for £7m

Ngolo Kanye - at 21 he couldn’t get in Boulogne’s team

Jamie Vardy - played for Stockbridge at 23 year old

Adrian Basso - signed from Woking at 29

Yannick Bolasie - improved immeasurably after leaving us at 22 years of age

As a fan base we need to believe in the youngsters, trust the coaches to help them improve and encourage them when they get game time.

Not all young players improve and if I could be arsed I could probably produce a bigger list than yours including some of ours who were destined for big things.

Even professional scouts and coaches get it wrong with young players including Bristol City.

I am not aware of any young players getting anything other than encouragement during game time by the way but happy to stand corrected.

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Loon plage said:

Not all young players improve and if I could be arsed I could probably produce a bigger list than yours including some of ours who were destined for big things.

Even professional scouts and coaches get it wrong with young players including Bristol City.

I am not aware of any young players getting anything other than encouragement during game time by the way but happy to stand corrected.

My list was a few examples. Loads more

[Natchfever]

1 minute ago, RedDave said:

My list was a few examples. Loads more

I wouldn't bother mate ...

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Loon plage said:

I wouldn't bother mate ...

Just here to educate and create debate

[Pezo]

I think LJ nailed it last night. All the players that have been listed in this thread as not making it lacked strength put on a few kg of lean muscle and everything becomes a bit easier as a footballer. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

21 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Just here to educate and create debate

Well, you've certainly managed the latter. One out of two ain't bad, bud; keep improving

[Bristol Oil Services]

29 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Not all young players improve and if I could be arsed I could probably produce a bigger list than yours 

 

 

29 minutes ago, RedDave said:

My list was a few examples. Loads more

My list's bigger than your list, now. Anyone got a bigger list?

 

[Red Army 75]

Need the right attitude as well as the ability. 

[Oh Louie louie]

John akinde hasnt improved he has been in the bottom division since he left us.

Alfreton town, barnet to name 2.

Is that improvement?

Credit him for the job he did at rovers though dave, 14 appearances zero goals.

[And Its Smith]

9 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

John akinde hasnt improved he has been in the bottom division since he left us.

Alfreton town, barnet to name 2.

Is that improvement?

Credit him for the job he did at rovers though dave, 14 appearances zero goals.

Scored 70 goals in 150 games in league two in the last few seasons. Now a league one player.  When he joined us he hasn’t as good as that 

[Oh Louie louie]

If he was any good and improved he would have gone to bigger and better teams.

Not been plying his trade for ten years in the old division 4.

If someone has played say roughly 26 games in leauge 1 scoring zero goals, that tells me they arent good enough at that level.

[steviestevieneville]

3 hours ago, RedDave said:

Not talking about level. Talking about ability. Burns is better now than when he was with us. He’s improved. 

He wasnt ‘doing it’ in the Championship as he wasn’t getting in the team and performing well. 

Wouldnt have thought this was going to be so tricky to explain!

Perhaps you don’t have the vocabulary to explain it properly. See I can talk down to people as well .

How many games have you watched him live since he left. You need to provide a list of hundreds as I said for there to be any substance  to you your argument. Even the best academy’s don’t produce players for their first team constantly.