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Young Players Improve


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9 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

John akinde hasnt improved he has been in the bottom division since he left us.

Alfreton town, barnet to name 2.

Is that improvement?

Credit him for the job he did at rovers though dave, 14 appearances zero goals.

Scored 70 goals in 150 games in league two in the last few seasons. Now a league one player.  When he joined us he hasn’t as good as that 

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3 hours ago, RedDave said:

Not talking about level. Talking about ability. Burns is better now than when he was with us. He’s improved. 

He wasnt ‘doing it’ in the Championship as he wasn’t getting in the team and performing well. 

Wouldnt have thought this was going to be so tricky to explain!

Perhaps you don’t have the vocabulary to explain it properly. See I can talk down to people as well .

How many games have you watched him live since he left. You need to provide a list of hundreds as I said for there to be any substance  to you your argument. Even the best academy’s don’t produce players for their first team constantly. 

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Would you be happy if we gave every academy player till they're 30 to prove their worth? Of course not. There are so so many player that fall between the gaps in football, you only hear the top stories and not the ones about players retiring in their early 20s and have fallen out of the academy 

I agree writing a player off at 21 is silly, especially the ones that show promise/determination. Players just don't always flourish under certain clubs because of the training/management the club has implemented and moving on (even in their youngster years) is the best option for both parties.

Edited by Sturny
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30 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Would you be happy if we gave every academy player till they're 30 to prove their worth? Of course not. There are so so many player that fall between the gaps in football, you only hear the top stories and not the ones about players retiring in their early 20s and have fallen out of the academy 

I agree writing a player off at 21 is silly, especially the ones that show promise/determination. Players just don't always flourish under certain clubs because of the training/management the club has implemented and moving on (even in their youngster years) is the best option for both parties.

On balance over the last 20 years, I would say that whilst some signings of young players have been poor, I cannot think of the club making a mistake when it released a young player, so perhaps they know just a little more than the OP regarding the potential for improvement, and we are actually talking about hundreds of players here.

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28 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

On balance over the last 20 years, I would say that whilst some signings of young players have been poor, I cannot think of the club making a mistake when it released a young player, so perhaps they know just a little more than the OP regarding the potential for improvement, and we are actually talking about hundreds of players here.

Yes, I actually can't think off the top of my head a player we've released (not sold) below the age of 23 that's improved in recent years 

Edited by Sturny
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13 hours ago, RedDave said:

There is a hell of a lot of fans who don’t seem to understand that youngsters improve. Comments like “if he isn’t good enough at 21 then he never will be” are naive at best.

Players like Moore and Vyner are centre backs still very early in their career and will not peak for a few more years yet.

Centre backs and goalkeepers especially take longer to mature and develop but it’s the case for all positions. 

I could write a huge list of players that were playing at one level when they were 20/21/22/23 and then went on to perform at a much higher level. 

Here is a short list that fans might want to remember when they write off our youngsters and consistently say we should get rid.

Riyad Mahrez - formerly a decent winger for Le Havre. Improved to become a double premier league winner and player of the season

Virgil Van Dyke - Groningen centre back at 22 who has gone on to be the best centre back in the Premier League, and some say the world

Aden Flint - I believe he hadn’t played league football at 20. Soon became a superb player for us and left for £7m

Ngolo Kanye - at 21 he couldn’t get in Boulogne’s team

Jamie Vardy - played for Stockbridge at 23 year old

Adrian Basso - signed from Woking at 29

Yannick Bolasie - improved immeasurably after leaving us at 22 years of age

As a fan base we need to believe in the youngsters, trust the coaches to help them improve and encourage them when they get game time.

Agree with that but on the flip side there also comes a point when potential has to show signs of being converted (I would say Elliason has successfully reached this point) which is exactly what Johnson was intimating with the likes of Moore, Vyner, Walsh and even Eisa. You cannot give these lads an indefinite period to progress. There comes a point at which LJ has to make a judgement call on whether they are Top 6 chasing championship standard or not.

I don’t have a problem with signing the likes of the Centre Half from Bath or blooding Academy players from time to time but in the end, given a reasonable time period to show what they can do, have to be good enough for what we are looking to achieve. We have to accept that some of these signings will make us a huge profit and others will be near worthless to US at some point in the future - at that point you get rid.

Edited by Numero Uno
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Honestly, this thread. Got to feel a bit sorry for you @RedDave.

Obviously, the thread title should be: "(Some) young players improve (to varying extents, other young players do not improve at all, and some even regress)"

That way you would cover all bases.

Really though, is the point that difficult to grasp?

Some of the players who you think aren't good enough now, are of the right age to still get to the required level to perform well for Bristol City in the future. Perhaps have a little more faith in the fact that a team of professional coaches/scouts still deem them worthy of a place on our books, and give them a little more support.

Cheers.

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6 minutes ago, Coxy27 said:

Honestly, this thread. Got to feel a bit sorry for you @RedDave.

Obviously, the thread title should be: "(Some) young players improve (to varying extents, other young players do not improve at all, and some even regress)"

That way you would cover all bases.

Really though, is the point that difficult to grasp?

Some of the players who you think aren't good enough now, are of the right age to still get to the required level to perform well for Bristol City in the future. Perhaps have a little more faith in the fact that a team of professional coaches/scouts still deem them worthy of a place on our books, and give them a little more support.

Cheers.

Tbh the underlying message from the op that “there are a hell of a lot of fans that don’t understand what I do so you all need to be educated” when in reality it’s only a tiny percentage probably isn’t the best way to make the point!!

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6 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree with that but on the flip side there also comes a point when potential has to show signs of being converted (I would say Elliason has successfully reached this point) which is exactly what Johnson was intimating with the likes of Moore, Vyner, Walsh and even Eisa. You cannot give these lads an indefinite period to progress. There comes a point at which LJ has to make a judgement call on whether they are Top 6 chasing championship standard or not.

I don’t have a problem with signing the likes of the Centre Half from Bath or blooding Academy players from time to time but in the end, given a reasonable time period to show what they can do, have to be good enough for what we are looking to achieve. We have to accept that some of these signings will make us a huge profit and others will be near worthless to US at some point in the future - at that point you get rid.

That's exactly what we do. Wes Burns we got 200 odd grand for. McCoulsky we sold to Forest Green, not sure for how much.

We will sell any that aren't good enough and have percentage of future profits on them too.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

Honestly, this thread. Got to feel a bit sorry for you @RedDave.

Obviously, the thread title should be: "(Some) young players improve (to varying extents, other young players do not improve at all, and some even regress)"

That way you would cover all bases.

Really though, is the point that difficult to grasp?

Some of the players who you think aren't good enough now, are of the right age to still get to the required level to perform well for Bristol City in the future. Perhaps have a little more faith in the fact that a team of professional coaches/scouts still deem them worthy of a place on our books, and give them a little more support.

Cheers.

Yeah because that would be earth an shattering opinion.

Up there with “Sometimes it rains but not always, sometimes it is not raining and sometimes it’s really dry”

or

”Cars go forwards, unless you put them in reverse then they go back. Also sometimes cars stay still”

dozens of words to say nothing. 

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2 hours ago, Lucan said:

Yeah because that would be earth an shattering opinion.

Up there with “Sometimes it rains but not always, sometimes it is not raining and sometimes it’s really dry”

or

”Cars go forwards, unless you put them in reverse then they go back. Also sometimes cars stay still”

dozens of words to say nothing. 

Haha, sarcasm really doesn't go well over the internet, does it.

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19 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Yep. So no point in getting rid of promising 21 year olds.

Thing is Jon, the OP was arguing that young prospects who were nowhere near the first team as 17 years olds have improved because they are players of the year at middling League One sides. We are of course at a different level now and I suggest it should be a lot easier to identify who will be a top end Champ player earlier than if we were still languishing in L1. Therefore, whilst its hard on the lads involved, we shouldn't be persisting with 21 year old players who we won't earn anything from either as a squad member of a top end Champ City team, or via a transfer fee unless there is strong evidence that there's a reason for late development, which could be down to growth spurts or long term illness or injury.

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3 hours ago, Loon plage said:

Thing is Jon, the OP was arguing that young prospects who were nowhere near the first team as 17 years olds have improved because they are players of the year at middling League One sides. We are of course at a different level now and I suggest it should be a lot easier to identify who will be a top end Champ player earlier than if we were still languishing in L1. Therefore, whilst its hard on the lads involved, we shouldn't be persisting with 21 year old players who we won't earn anything from either as a squad member of a top end Champ City team, or via a transfer fee unless there is strong evidence that there's a reason for late development, which could be down to growth spurts or long term illness or injury.

But there are so many 21 year olds who are so far away from their potential that it's too early to say. These players will only get better and will either make it with us or we will sell them for good money overall.

Loaning them out we only pay half their wages. We can't really lose by keeping them a bit longer to see how they develop. I bet you at least a couple of them surprise us in the next year or two.

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On 20/05/2019 at 23:11, Lucan said:

This has to be the single most biased, badly evidenced post on the history of OTIB (and that’s saying something)

Wes Burns

John Akinde

Andre Blackman

Danny Haynes

Are just as valid examples of youngsters who career stagnated or went backwards in their early 20’s

 

 

 

 

I think surely the OP wS saying a large number progress after their early 20s. Not all.

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44 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But there are so many 21 year olds who are so far away from their potential that it's too early to say. These players will only get better and will either make it with us or we will sell them for good money overall.

Loaning them out we only pay half their wages. We can't really lose by keeping them a bit longer to see how they develop. I bet you at least a couple of them surprise us in the next year or two.

Could be a drain on income though. Just as well we aint deciding.

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11 hours ago, JonDolman said:

But there are so many 21 year olds who are so far away from their potential that it's too early to say. These players will only get better and will either make it with us or we will sell them for good money overall.

Loaning them out we only pay half their wages. We can't really lose by keeping them a bit longer to see how they develop. I bet you at least a couple of them surprise us in the next year or two.

Hope you're right mind.

Edited by Loon plage
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