Mkhitaryan & the Europa League final

[Mr Popodopolous]

45 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

I quite like the idea of the Champions League/Europa League finals being shared around UEFA member countries.  It's unfair if London, Paris, Berlin and Madrid were the only places ever to host major finals. 

But Azerbaijan is not a good choice if they cannot guarantee the safety of players from Armenia.  That sort of crap has no place in football and if UEFA cannot guarantee the safety of Armenian players in Azerbaijan, then Azerbaijan should not be allowed to host matches.

Azerbaijan could have guaranteed the safety- they are a pretty tightly regulated i.e. not very democratic country lets say so if they want to guarantee his safety then they are well capable. In the same way  Russia prevented any of their hooligans in summer 2018- anyone thinking of having a pop at Mkhitaryan in a UEFA final, a showcase for their Government- well it'd be very bad for them I suspect. Google it, they are seem quite hardline. Not a nice ruling party/leader. Not a full on dictatorship but certainly more in common with that than here.

One interesting, Devil's Advocate post I saw online- could Mkhitaryan be making a political point by not going to Baku?

Also why did he visit the disputed territory in 2011- he wasn't a kid taken by parents or something, no control. Not even once either if this to be believed.

Quote

Mkhitaryan has visited Artsakh [Karabakh] three times on charity visits. In December 2011, Mkhitaryan visited Stepanakert, capital of the disputed territory, and donated gifts to the families of fallen soldiers. He was subsequently awarded the NKR Prime Minister’s medal"

https://trivela.com.br/entenda-o-conflito-de-nagorno-karabakh-que-tirou-mkhitaryan-da-final-da-liga-europa/

Better rundown, from a paper not even based in Europe- you'd have to c + p into google translate though!

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, BCFC11 said:

I have no doubt that some UEFA individuals will benefit from it financially, yet ask them why they chosen to play it in Baku and you’ll get the usual horseshit that it’s to raise the profile of the game in poorer countries.

Reminds me abit of when Brazil were chosen to host the World Cup a few years back and the majority of the Brazilian people were dead against it due to the financial state the country was in but they still went ahead building all these new stadiums, promising jobs, bright futures etc. Yet not so long ago I seen a report on one the Stadiums where England played one of their group games (near the Amazon) the only thing people now use it for is pitching up their tents and living in the concourse. Given the size of Qatar as a country and I think building 12 brand new stadiums it will happen there aswell, so their promoting the game in lesser countries is bollox.

They're in UEFA (whether they should be or not is a different debate), the ground fits criteria. Mkhitaryan visiting a separatist area should have ruled him out of the final for that alone by rights but UEFA obviously got him an exemption which he chose not to take up- as is his total right btw, but his past actions make me wonder a bit.

Actually pretty oil-rich Azerbaijan and in a population of 9 million too- but the people are not. Funny that!

 Agree on Qatar though, that decision farcical- Brazil is one of the premier football nations though- comparing Qatar and Brazil is-

[Mr Popodopolous]

On the 6,000 tickets apiece thing.

The modern benchmark now seems to be about 25% of tickets to each side. No excuse for the 6,000 but a total of 50% of tickets to fans of clubs and 50% to everyone else.

Going by this standard, should've been 17,000 tickets apiece to each side. That is the modern UEFA benchmark.

[steveybadger]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Azerbaijan could have guaranteed the safety- they are a pretty tightly regulated i.e. not very democratic country lets say so if they want to guarantee his safety then they are well capable. In the same way  Russia prevented any of their hooligans in summer 2018- anyone thinking of having a pop at Mkhitaryan in a UEFA final, a showcase for their Government- well it'd be very bad for them I suspect. Google it, they are seem quite hardline. Not a nice ruling party/leader. Not a full on dictatorship but certainly more in common with that than here.

One interesting, Devil's Advocate post I saw online- could Mkhitaryan be making a political point by not going to Baku?

Also why did he visit the disputed territory in 2011- he wasn't a kid taken by parents or something, no control. Not even once either if this to be believed.

https://trivela.com.br/entenda-o-conflito-de-nagorno-karabakh-que-tirou-mkhitaryan-da-final-da-liga-europa/

Better rundown, from a paper not even based in Europe- you'd have to c + p into google translate though!

Azerbaijan is not in any sense a democracy; it's ruling regime has an horrendous record in terms of allowing dissenting views, political prisoners, free opposition etc. The stadium is there to attract big events which showcase the regime in a positive light, just the latest example of corrupt and brutal governments using sport for political purposes. It's why the old 'don't mix sport and politics' excuse Is such a load of old bobbins; sport is politics.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Azerbaijan is not in any sense a democracy; it's ruling regime has an horrendous record in terms of allowing dissenting views, political prisoners, free opposition etc. The stadium is there to attract big events which showcase the regime in a positive light, just the latest example of corrupt and brutal governments using sport for political purposes. It's why the old 'don't mix sport and politics' excuse Is such a load of old bobbins; sport is politics.

 

 

 

 

Thanks- that's clarified that then!

I read different things on it- some say it is partially democratic, some say it has characteristics of each but thanks for clearing that up. Definitely don't think it is a democracy as we know it.

Notable that Chelsea haven't complained about it- I mean Sarri has said a few things, but talking their high ups. Azerbaijan sounds similar to Russia- we all know who their owner appears to be close to.   I'd suggest we have lost moral high ground on this given we let some very questionable owners buy our clubs- no questions asked- and I'm not even talking about Abramovich, talking about those worse than him, significantly so! Mind you, the French with PSG are no better.

Sport and politics have overlapped, always- agree on this.

[steveybadger]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks- that's clarified that then!

I read different things on it- some say it is partially democratic, some say it has characteristics of each but thanks for clearing that up. Definitely don't think it is a democracy as we know it.

Notable that Chelsea haven't complained about it- I mean Sarri has said a few things, but talking their high ups. Azerbaijan sounds similar to Russia- we all know who their owner appears to be close to.   I'd suggest we have lost moral high ground on this given we let some very questionable owners buy our clubs- no questions asked. Mind you, the French with PSG are no better.

Sport and politics have overlapped, always- agree on this.

Yep the Russian comparison holds true, in the same way that it is supposedly a democracy, but when  Putin holds elections nobody else has a cat in hell's chance of winning!

[Olé]

On 21/05/2019 at 19:33, Mr Popodopolous said:

Worse it gets? Not talking so much people, political leaders- or 'leaders' more like it. I am happy Macedonia seems to have resolved its intractable issues with Greece however. Probably best not to mention the Albanian minority, for they would quite like to be part of Albania- territory and population alike!

Sorry, just re-surfacing after being even more deeply ensconced in remote parts of Eastern Europe (5th country in 5 days including obscure road border crossings and weird little twin propeller planes). In Macedonia I literally had 30 minutes spare but did wander through an Albanian hang out street - to be fair I didn't ask their opinion so they may be fed up of everything, they're certainly not the majority anywhere I've been. But the rest of them, mainly young people I'm working with, all hate this obsession with past grudges - it's particularly ridiculous in Skopje where they seem to have got a 2-for-1 deal on big **** off statues, most recent nationalist leaders literally having installed these 50 foot things everywhere in just the last few years (before being voted out), while public services were crumbling.

I think that speaks more to the real issue and probably where our stereotypes come from. While everyone I meet are warm, friendly and proudly welcoming (at odds with what we're always told), figures of authority in these regions seem to wield power like a large battle-axe. The locals feel it and I certainly have. It is true of police (stories told by a driver on a 4 hour route last night of the abuses and corruptions and intimidation, was amazing), and it's true of border control (I was subject to an inquisition at 1am entering Moldova the night before last, the like of which I get only in America). These are probably the sort of politicised power hungry people who are pushing this Mkhitaryan issue. Meanwhile everyone I'm working with are just as @SX227 brilliantly describes - I want to return on a non-work basis.

Incidentally I slipped in a (true) story to an audience of 50 in Chisinau yesterday about the time I bought my favourite football team's shirt and wanted the name of my then favourite player on the back but at £1.50 a letter, the 11 letters were beyond me until my next pay day. The player in question Tistimetanu from their beautiful city. They loved the story (I actually still have the shirt with the name on the back) and City now has another 50 adopted fans in Moldova! 

[Port Said Red]

On 21/05/2019 at 17:10, bristolcitysweden said:

For environmental reasons the game should be played in London. Nut people make nut decisions for money laundring reasons.

I **gulp** err. Totally agree with you Tommy!!

[JamesBCFC]

Slightly apart from the general thrust of the topic, but also related.

How many people turn up for the F1 in Baku, and how do they manage to cope then?

After all, with it also being a street circuit a chunk of the city is unusable as roads as well.

I realise it won't be as many as the Europa League final will, but it's still a significant amount of extra people with the added issue of road closures.

[Mr Popodopolous]

45 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Slightly apart from the general thrust of the topic, but also related.

How many people turn up for the F1 in Baku, and how do they manage to cope then?

After all, with it also being a street circuit a chunk of the city is unusable as roads as well.

I realise it won't be as many as the Europa League final will, but it's still a significant amount of extra people with the added issue of road closures.

This should offer a balanced perspective, this set of links.

6,000 is too low but some of the coverage doesn't take into account the usual UEFA standard allocation- one of the managers said something 30,000 apiece- well that would mean a capacity of 120,000 being needed by current standards. Third article is interesting, if contentious to say the least- outdated too. Usual UEFA allocation tends to be 25% to Team A, 25% to Team B and 50% to everyone else.

https://www.azernews.az/travel/150767.html

https://www.azernews.az/sports/151190.html

https://jam-news.net/op-ed-scandal-around-baku-europa-league-final/

https://www.azernews.az/aggression/151187.html

Otoh, if the 4th article is true is Baku even safe for the final? Not talking terrorism, but frozen war.

One thing is for sure, these articles offer a much broader perspective than much of the English media have about this.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Purchased in the ballots no doubt- Fantastic gesture!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

More precedents.

All Spanish final, Bucharest- 2012. Got a healthy take up of attendance...dunno how many were fans of the 2 clubs though.

Some bitching in 2008 incidentally, even though Moscow certainly easier to get to than Baku. Was there any problem there?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1017579/Wave-goodbye-mayhem-Moscow-English-final-Wembley.html

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 hours ago, Olé said:

Sorry, just re-surfacing after being even more deeply ensconced in remote parts of Eastern Europe (5th country in 5 days including obscure road border crossings and weird little twin propeller planes). In Macedonia I literally had 30 minutes spare but did wander through an Albanian hang out street - to be fair I didn't ask their opinion so they may be fed up of everything, they're certainly not the majority anywhere I've been. But the rest of them, mainly young people I'm working with, all hate this obsession with past grudges - it's particularly ridiculous in Skopje where they seem to have got a 2-for-1 deal on big **** off statues, most recent nationalist leaders literally having installed these 50 foot things everywhere in just the last few years (before being voted out), while public services were crumbling.

I think that speaks more to the real issue and probably where our stereotypes come from. While everyone I meet are warm, friendly and proudly welcoming (at odds with what we're always told), figures of authority in these regions seem to wield power like a large battle-axe. The locals feel it and I certainly have. It is true of police (stories told by a driver on a 4 hour route last night of the abuses and corruptions and intimidation, was amazing), and it's true of border control (I was subject to an inquisition at 1am entering Moldova the night before last, the like of which I get only in America). These are probably the sort of politicised power hungry people who are pushing this Mkhitaryan issue. Meanwhile everyone I'm working with are just as @SX227 brilliantly describes - I want to return on a non-work basis.

Incidentally I slipped in a (true) story to an audience of 50 in Chisinau yesterday about the time I bought my favourite football team's shirt and wanted the name of my then favourite player on the back but at £1.50 a letter, the 11 letters were beyond me until my next pay day. The player in question Tistimetanu from their beautiful city. They loved the story (I actually still have the shirt with the name on the back) and City now has another 50 adopted fans in Moldova! 

I am glad to hear that things on the up- I especially like the Tistimetanu story!

Their authorities seem to have a disproportionate voice, sounds like people have put it behind them in the 20th century.

The Mkhitaryan issue though I feel is fairly unique because he did visit three times the disputed territory- not once but three times, so sad though it is, it maybe for the best that he misses this final! 

Given that the Governments out there are often as you say, I think them guaranteeing his security is quite plausible. Maybe he's even playing the politics a bit? Visiting  Nagorno-Karabakh, not once, twice but three times- as an adult- most recently in 2011, is very interesting behaviour given that it is occupied territory in Azerbaijan, by Armenia and claimed by, blockaded by Azerbaijan. Not apportioning blame to either side, plenty to go around no doubt but have to wonder his motivations there...

Your Moldova thing could be explained in part by the fact there is a breakaway state called Transnistria. 

[Kashmir]

On 21/05/2019 at 20:42, Akira said:

That's absolutely disgusting that a final will be held in a place where, let's face it, I'm sure it's much easier to commit these sort of acts than if it was somewhere else. Big crowds are always a draw for terrorism, but FFS, does no one have a conscience at UEFA?!

Holding it there doesn't make any f*cking sense at all, other than to line their pockets. The whole spiel about trying to reach out to other nations, fair opportunity etc is utter bull.

Arsenal should pull out purely on the basis one of their best players has to miss it solely on the fact of the location its held at! If this was barca and Messi had to miss out, there would be uproar. And if arsenal lose, right or wrong, they'd be well within their means to say it was an unfair tie. 

Complete bollocks!

I’ve worked in Baku on and off for the past ten years and have never had any trouble or seen any kind of terrorist attack. Considering the fact that the city is very westernised you’d imagine they’d have had some sort of attack, but there is none. Certainly a lot less than London!!

Baku is a great city that wants to improve its image and attract tourism. Why shouldn’t they host it? Direct flights take 5-6 hours and if you can’t get that then it’s easy to fly via Germany/Amsterdam/Istanbul.

Get a grip.

[Akira]

13 hours ago, Kashmir said:

Complete bollocks!

I’ve worked in Baku on and off for the past ten years and have never had any trouble or seen any kind of terrorist attack. Considering the fact that the city is very westernised you’d imagine they’d have had some sort of attack, but there is none. Certainly a lot less than London!!

Baku is a great city that wants to improve its image and attract tourism. Why shouldn’t they host it? Direct flights take 5-6 hours and if you can’t get that then it’s easy to fly via Germany/Amsterdam/Istanbul.

Get a grip.

I beg your pardon? 

You might disagree with me, but think you should wind your neck in a tad as I'm more than entitled to my opinion. Baku has been hosted under the guise of bring football to the poorer nations, developing countries etc. No. It went there because they paid the most for it to be there. The political issues they've got, safety concerns along with human rights mean UEFA will clearly sell to the highest bidder, regardless of their policies. 

My point was the fact I can't imagine the security is as tight as it would be in somewhere such as England. I was making the point that, yes, we've had terrorist attacks here in London and elsewhere in Europe, but getting a bomb for example, going off at a final in Wembley would be so much harder than somewhere in Baku or elsewhere in the middle east. If you disagree and think they're both on par, fair enough. I'm sure security will be high, but not to the standard Western countries have in my view. But that's my view, and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Akira said:

I beg your pardon? 

You might disagree with me, but think you should wind your neck in a tad as I'm more than entitled to my opinion. Baku has been hosted under the guise of bring football to the poorer nations, developing countries etc. No. It went there because they paid the most for it to be there. The political issues they've got, safety concerns along with human rights mean UEFA will clearly sell to the highest bidder, regardless of their policies. 

My point was the fact I can't imagine the security is as tight as it would be in somewhere such as England. I was making the point that, yes, we've had terrorist attacks here in London and elsewhere in Europe, but getting a bomb for example, going off at a final in Wembley would be so much harder than somewhere in Baku or elsewhere in the middle east. If you disagree and think they're both on par, fair enough. I'm sure security will be high, but not to the standard Western countries have in my view. But that's my view, and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

I don't particularly have a great love for Azerbaijan from what I've read, but @Kashmir I agree with on one thing certainly.

Risk of terrorism or even an attack on Mykhitarian had he chose to go. Not all that big IMO.

Maybe not an officially dictatorial country but it strikes me as being 'strongly authoritarian'. That'd reduce the risk of an attack on Mykhitarian had he gone and by quite a bit as family likely 'disappeared'.

Woe betide anyone disrupting a showcase for an authoritarian Government- or their loved ones for that matter!

As for a terrorist attack, they tend to be less common in a place like Azerbaijan. Quite a controlling state- someone higher in thread compared it to Russia.

[Kashmir]

Maybe I flew off the handle a little there.

You both raise some valid points and yes, I’d imagine Baku were the highest bidder and that’s why UEFA went with it. Very much like FIFA with Qatar! Both as corrupt as each other.

 

[Natchfever]

17 hours ago, Kashmir said:

Complete bollocks!

I’ve worked in Baku on and off for the past ten years and have never had any trouble or seen any kind of terrorist attack. Considering the fact that the city is very westernised you’d imagine they’d have had some sort of attack, but there is none. Certainly a lot less than London!!

Baku is a great city that wants to improve its image and attract tourism. Why shouldn’t they host it? Direct flights take 5-6 hours and if you can’t get that then it’s easy to fly via Germany/Amsterdam/Istanbul.

Get a grip.

Because that wonderful city will not be particularly welcoming to Enlish Armenian's who may wish to follow either of the teams, and that one of the participants considered it too dangerous for one of their players to attend.

You get a ******* grip host the Asian cup final there its about as European as Tel Aviv.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Kashmir said:

and yes, I’d imagine Baku were the highest bidder and that’s why UEFA went with it. Very much like FIFA with Qatar! Both as corrupt as each other.

 

I always find this quite interesting.

Not that there aren't serious issues with both- there clearly are not least the Qatar WC. My views on Baku are mixed...

Our own FA and EPL plus EFL more than happy to accept money at clubs from here, there and everywhere. PSG with Qatar too, but I think it's fair to say it's most common in PL.

The Sheikhs at Man City... Soft power.

Abramovich at Chelsea... Mix of soft power, a hedge against Putin turning on him, and tbf I think his football interest more genuine than the above. Google him and his wealth- how he made it.

The Chinese at varied clubs...quite why they're buying in is anyone's guess!

Qatar at PSG...Read the Sheikhs at Man City.

Varied other foreign owners from outside Europe, hard to say. A mix of motives maybe- politics, business, softening of image?

Point is, our own FA and EPL are happy enough to get involved in facilitating questionable deals, money or just let it take a course.

What colour tint are your glasses in this matter? Are any football Governing body fit for purpose!

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/chelsea-vs-arsenal-europa-league-final-henrikh-mkhitaryan-baku-politics-a8929576.html?amp

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/henrikh-mkhitaryan-azerbaijan-armenia-arsenal-europa-final-security-fears-conflict-a8928841.html?amp

Saw a couple of decent articles on it the other day.

Basically, to summarise a few key points:

*Over 100 years of antipathy between the 2 nations.

*Possibly was frozen like a lot of conflicts when in USSR.

*When was all disintegrating in late 1980s, vicious ethnic conflict.

*War, dunno how big but war between 1988-94 between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

*Disputed territory, forget its name but it is occupied by Armenia.

*Both sides likely committed atrocities...no real good guys here IMO.

*No diplomatic relations of any kind between the 2. FIFA and UEFA actually make it the case that they're kept apart in any draws.

*Armenians are banned from Azerbaijan as a matter of course. However sports stars or athletes get an exemption. No Armenian athlete has yet been harmed in Azerbaijan but probably wouldn't be much fun...24 hour guard anyone?

*Did read somewhere though that a small number of Armenians live in Azerbaijan.

*What compounds the problems here is Mykhitarian has visited occupied/disputed territory three times. As an adult. Probably best he stays away!!