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Davefevs

Pack v Hourihane

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Been having a play over the last week tryng to learn how to use some software called tableau.  I first created a keeper’s radar chart, but wanted to do something with a bit more data, so I started playing with the attached.

Here’s the first part of my Central Midfielders dashboard....for Pack and Hourihane - two CMs who sit at the base of the midfield.  I need to do a defensive version, as I think this will show a better balance.

5C03ACFE-8017-44A1-ADA1-8F5F24DFEE1A.thumb.jpeg.75b847b33f9d70bb2350d7cc01d98f84.jpeg

Any feedback much appreciated.

Once set up I can put any players into the filters, even multiple players.

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1 minute ago, hodge said:

I had the free trial of tableau and just managed to confuse myself :laugh:

It’s a slow learning process, granted.  Spent most of yesterday trying to stop my average and high lines from changing as I applied player filters, or retaining them for the whole database, rather than ignoring players who played <900mins.  Frustrating until you work out where that important click needs to be!

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Been having a play over the last week tryng to learn how to use some software called tableau.  I first created a keeper’s radar chart, but wanted to do something with a bit more data, so I started playing with the attached.

Here’s the first part of my Central Midfielders dashboard....for Pack and Hourihane - two CMs who sit at the base of the midfield.  I need to do a defensive version, as I think this will show a better balance.

5C03ACFE-8017-44A1-ADA1-8F5F24DFEE1A.thumb.jpeg.75b847b33f9d70bb2350d7cc01d98f84.jpeg

Any feedback much appreciated.

Once set up I can put any players into the filters, even multiple players.

So my conclusions from this is that in an attacking sense, Pack is below average in most areas, but the few areas where he is above average he excels.

On the other hand Hourihane is above average in all of those attacking metrics. Excelling in 1 or 2.

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I would love to see some comparisons between Tomori and Webster, I thought Tomori's passing through midfield from the back yesterday was some of the best I have ever seen, and that pass to Waghorn that ended up setting up their goal was Hoddle like. Absolutely incredible.

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35 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I would love to see some comparisons between Tomori and Webster, I thought Tomori's passing through midfield from the back yesterday was some of the best I have ever seen, and that pass to Waghorn that ended up setting up their goal was Hoddle like. Absolutely incredible.

This might help. Not my work

416715B4-9A4D-43C6-8DAF-C1EA8A4F630D.jpeg

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17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This might help. Not my work

416715B4-9A4D-43C6-8DAF-C1EA8A4F630D.jpeg

Thank you, I think! I am not great at analysing these things as I usually need to read several different graphs to get into how they should be interpreted. But on the face of it, what I think I can see is.

1. Webster tends to pass the ball further than Tomori, but with less accuracy. 

2. Tomori was having a particularly good day yesterday and that usually, Keogh outpasses him both in accuracy and distance

The second one surprises me, but the first one works well with what I saw yesterday, quick accurate flat passes about 20/25 metres, into the midfield mostly, but the kind of passes that allow the midfield players to pick them up and take that momentum into the attack. I think on smaller, narrower pitches the chances for those passes to be intercepted would increase, hence the lower accuracy.

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Be interesting to see whether others in our midfield have the same sort of profile. I suspect so. Essentially, lots of good passing (accuracy) but not where it really matters: shots, assists, key passes.  One of if not the main reason we struggle to score goals.

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41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’ll create some others tomorrow....at Take That tonight. 

"Promises", come on Dave, "It Only Takes a Minute". You should be "Up All Night". Sorry forget it, I should show a little "Patience". :) 

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6 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

"Promises", come on Dave, "It Only Takes a Minute". You should be "Up All Night". Sorry forget it, I should show a little "Patience". :) 

Nether forget where you’re coming from

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Hourihane is obviously the better player, but Pack has done well for us over the years. We are possession based in that we would rather retain possession that make a risky pass, and I wonder if that's the main thing factoring in Packs higher passing stats, but those passes less likely to come to anything or being useful.

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11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s the first part of my Central Midfielders dashboard....for Pack and Hourihane - two CMs who sit at the base of the midfield.  I need to do a defensive version, as I think this will show a better balance.

 

Any feedback much appreciated.

Once set up I can put any players into the filters, even multiple players.

Doesn't Hourihane play multiple positions?

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’ll create some others tomorrow....at Take That tonight. 

Could you do one for range of notes, Barlow vs Williams?

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3 hours ago, YorkshireSection said:

I dont think you need a statometer to work out who the better player is.

We need an upgrade on Pack if we are to improve on last seasons final position.

I , reluctantly, agree with you.

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2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Doesn't Hourihane play multiple positions?

Predominantly the sitting CM with Grealish and McGinn (who does a bit of everything) ahead of him. 

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If it were up to me I would look to improve on both Pack and Korey

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2 hours ago, Fiale said:

Hourihane is obviously the better player, but Pack has done well for us over the years. We are possession based in that we would rather retain possession that make a risky pass, and I wonder if that's the main thing factoring in Packs higher passing stats, but those passes less likely to come to anything or being useful.

I saw this as the beginning of our downfall (started under Gary Johnson), one part was an in balance in the structure of the team - a lot more attacking on the right wing than the left. Busy most predominantly how much retaining possession was preferred over try to create something with a risky ball into an attacking area. Even a simple switch of play took too long and it has crept into watching City in 2018-19.

Admittedly, we never scored great numbers of goals under Johnson but that didn’t really go away until Pack particularly started to find his range in league one - Ayling, Williams, Bryan and Flint were all capable of more adventurous passes and we had looked a lot more exciting going forward since.

Instructions from the coach have a huge role to play but you wonder if Pack’s lack of pace has contributed to building the team around this style - I would like to see a more dynamic midfielder in there (ala Smith) to compliment Brownhill who has shown outstanding progression since we came out of Johnson’s poor run in 2017

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4 hours ago, YorkshireSection said:

I dont think you need a statometer to work out who the better player is.

We need an upgrade on Pack if we are to improve on last seasons final position.

But how do you pick the replacement after watching them? What helps you confirm your opinion? What's the point in getting a replacement if the stats for the replacement are the same? 

If we just want a better Pack then the stats can help. If we want a better but different type of midfielder then obviously the stats are not as useful. 

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5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Doesn't Hourihane play multiple positions?

Back-to-goal, in the box and falling over when breathed on.

Is that a position? He's totally perfected that one. I still think the guy is a cock, for THAT game alone. Can't see me ever liking the bloke tbh

Edited by AppyDAZE
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1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

Back-to-goal, in the box and falling over when breathed on.

Is that a position? He's totally perfected that one. I still think the guy is a cock, for THAT game alone. Can't see me ever liking the bloke tbh

What a weird post. Nobody asked if you liked him. 

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Think it’s also worth pointing out that Hourane plays with 2 of the best other midfielders in the division 

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38 minutes ago, Lucan said:

What a weird post. Nobody asked if you liked him. 

Thanks, Lucan. You'd know weird if you saw it, so I guess it was.

Edited by AppyDAZE
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Ok, so I’ve now created the defensive dashboard.  Here’s both together.D09A07F8-F15B-4700-AEC4-2BC074548FE7.thumb.jpeg.08f70daaa2e8aab9b16df8b89cbb1463.jpeg

Comments above that Hourihane the better Attacking player, caveated by the players around him, team style, role undertaken, the type of player he is.  

Now the defensive dashboard:

6A479DB7-D49A-4A36-9E67-A8B9845A700C.thumb.jpeg.2d06285a240b245fbc8d033e7d83316c.jpeg

Pack starts to show his attributes in terms of his many duels he undertakes both on the deck and the air.  Tackles all fairly even, but interceptions he comes out on top.

You can obviously read lots into these things, but it’s a useful view, comparing side by side. 

Forgetting the actual players, any general feedback on the look and feel.  I reversed the axis for fouls as more fouls isn’t better.  Does that help or just look odd?  Appreciate any comments.

It’s now set up so I can run any players.  Here’s possible target Joe WilliamsE335E458-BF62-45EB-A68D-4C3412FF7500.thumb.jpeg.63111e9355e0cdcf2ec09d777c877c19.jpeg

A75ECC1F-B2C8-4ED5-BB17-5D4E5AF0D1A5.thumb.jpeg.ee9e37c78c18f122501aae628f7a093d.jpeg

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@Davefevs I've just given up work and have less time than you to play? How do you do it?

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2 minutes ago, reddoh said:

@Davefevs I've just given up work and have less time than you to play? How do you do it?

Giving up work is a full time job I'm led to believe.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Giving up work is a full time job I'm led to believe.

totally unfootball related, half term 5 grand kids one stressed wife how could life be simpler?

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On 28/05/2019 at 08:16, Davefevs said:

This might help. Not my work

416715B4-9A4D-43C6-8DAF-C1EA8A4F630D.jpeg

Interesting thing that I noted from that having had a quick look.

Kalas appears to be ahead of Webster in the passing accuracy stakes, in terms of Forward Passing but Webster the length. Always thought early season that Kalas had more to give in a technical sense and if we re-sign him and get in another midfield to help the link, as well as Webster's excellence we may see Kalas providing more in the pushing up stakes.

Flint, while no Webster is actually ahead in terms of FW passing where many would likely assume- but then he was always especially final season here better in this regard than his reputation suggested.

As for Hourihane, not saying get rid of Pack but he would definitely be a great addition...wonder if he might be a possible loanee now Aston Villa have gone up and will likely splash the cash!

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On 28/05/2019 at 09:28, Redwhitepurple said:

Its the one and only reason pack has survived the team this year. Hes mr stat man. He looks good on stats. Actually seeing him play is a different matter

Think he could benefit a bit further forward tbh. His passes, his assists v Bolton and Norwich were great.

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15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting thing that I noted from that having had a quick look.

Kalas appears to be ahead of Webster in the passing accuracy stakes, in terms of Forward Passing but Webster the length. Always thought early season that Kalas had more to give in a technical sense and if we re-sign him and get in another midfield to help the link, as well as Webster's excellence we may see Kalas providing more in the pushing up stakes.

Flint, while no Webster is actually ahead in terms of FW passing where many would likely assume- but then he was always especially final season here better in this regard than his reputation suggested.

As for Hourihane, not saying get rid of Pack but he would definitely be a great addition...wonder if he might be a possible loanee now Aston Villa have gone up and will likely splash the cash!

We almost got him last August!!

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ah yeah, possibly you posted about it on the forum- why did we miss out again?

Villa were playing shit, he got a few minutes, did well and stayed in.  Unlucky timing from our perspective.

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