Parallel Universe

[Southport Red]

OK, a bit of fun to take our minds off who is/is not signing. 

Imagine there are two alternative universes, identical to this in every way except...

in PU 1 Bristol City are managed by Jurgen Klopp with a transfer kitty of £50M

in PU 2 the transfer kitty is still £50M but the manager is Pep Guardiola. 

How would those twi teams look?  What would their styles of play be?

Both start the next season in The Championship. Would either/both get promoted?

[Nongazeuse]

Both would get us promoted.

However, try giving each manager £5 million budget - that  would be more of a test.

I think Pep would do better as he is more of a coach.

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

Pep out.

.

[phantom]

Shit, this is going to be a long summer 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Southport Red said:

OK, a bit of fun to take our minds off who is/is not signing. 

Imagine there are two alternative universes, identical to this in every way except...

in PU 1 Bristol City are managed by Jurgen Klopp with a transfer kitty of £50M

in PU 2 the transfer kitty is still £50M but the manager is Pep Guardiola. 

How would those twi teams look?  What would their styles of play be?

Both start the next season in The Championship. Would either/both get promoted?

Both do not believe their models of play can be implemented in a season even at clubs with huge resources … But promotion in one season.

Both have teams who build from the back and use high presses at every club they move to.

Both use versions of 4-3-3.

I would err on the side of principles of Guardilola's model are more compatible with Bristol City - elements are here already. So 4-3-3, use of cdm pivot, wide receivers and splitting CB's, short passing, lots of immediate support of the football via triangles and diamonds, players alternating between lines, and counter pressing /high pressing.

 

 

[cidered abroad]

Don't need them. We've got Lee Johnson! Who could ask for anyone better?

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, Nongazeuse said:

Both would get us promoted.

However, try giving each manager £5 million budget - that  would be more of a test.

I think Pep would do better as he is more of a coach.

 

I’m no so sure that either would be guaranteed to get us promoted. 

£50million is what they are both used to spending on 1 or 2 players. Not creating a whole, winning team in an unfamiliar division. 

It’s one thing having some of the best players in the world at your disposal, but a completely different prospect when you have to battle against the odds to get a squad to over achieve. 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Don't need them. We've got Lee Johnson! Who could ask for anyone better?

LJ has the potential to become as impressive as both of them. 

[ZiderEyed]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

LJ has the potential to become as impressive as both of them. 

Bites in 3...2....1....

[Cowshed]

58 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I’m no so sure that either would be guaranteed to get us promoted. 

£50million is what they are both used to spending on 1 or 2 players. Not creating a whole, winning team in an unfamiliar division. 

It’s one thing having some of the best players in the world at your disposal, but a completely different prospect when you have to battle against the odds to get a squad to over achieve. 

Klopps initial success was at Mainz. He implemented very similar principles to those used at Dortmund and Liverpool. Mainz are not an affluent club. 

An argument for Klopps coaching is that he is very successful v superior spending power. Arguments for both Klopp and Guardiola is that their model of play and methodology of tactical periodisation fits at any level regardless of wealth. 

 

[Bar BS3]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Klopps initial success was at Mainz. He implemented very similar principles to those used at Dortmund and Liverpool. Mainz are not an affluent club. 

An argument for Klopps coaching is that he is very successful v superior spending power. Arguments for both Klopp and Guardiola is that their model of play and methodology of tactical periodisation fits at any level regardless of wealth. 

 

Perhaps. Yes, he didn’t spend much at Mainz. 

I still don’t think any top manager would guarantee success if they dropped down to the championship, having to work with lesser players, on tighter budgets. 

It’s all hypothetical, of course, but I certainly don’t think they’d find it easy. 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

Perhaps. Yes, he didn’t spend much at Mainz. 

I still don’t think any top manager would guarantee success if they dropped down to the championship, having to work with lesser players, on tighter budgets. 

It’s all hypothetical, of course, but I certainly don’t think they’d find it easy. 

These are the worlds best coaches. They go far beyond Managing. They develop, and install purpose and direction into players and football clubs. Fundamentally that is not about money .. Players lower down the leagues are seen using similar approaches in play to Barcelona. Pressing systems, splitting CB's, wide receivers the ideas at times have been present in Bristol City teams.  

 

 

 

[EnderMB]

Neither?

If by some stroke of luck, we ended up with £50m, we can still only spend as much as we make, so it's largely irrelevant thanks to FFP.

Even if we could spend, both Guardiola and Klopp require a certain level of player to play their optimum tactics. Pep couldn't replicate his success outside of a top team, while Klopp could, but it'd take him a while - longer than FFP would allow for.

With that being said, if we're talking about parallel universes, I often wonder what Bristol City would look like if we had won the Championship playoffs back in '08. Would Lansdown have splurged to keep us up, would we have done a Hull City and achieved relegation and promotion multiple times? Would we have made it to League 1?

[downendcity]

On 05/06/2019 at 13:41, Southport Red said:

OK, a bit of fun to take our minds off who is/is not signing. 

Imagine there are two alternative universes, identical to this in every way except...

in PU 1 Bristol City are managed by Jurgen Klopp with a transfer kitty of £50M

in PU 2 the transfer kitty is still £50M but the manager is Pep Guardiola. 

How would those twi teams look?  What would their styles of play be?

Both start the next season in The Championship. Would either/both get promoted?

A parallel universe -  you're Brian Cox, aren't you?

[richwwtk]

On 05/06/2019 at 15:33, Robbored said:

LJ has the potential to become as impressive as both of them. 

I know this was posted to annoy people more than anything, but I just took a look at Klopp's early career and there are similarities.....

He took over Mainz mid season and avoided relegation with an improved run of form, he then narrowly missed promotion for two consecutive seasons, then took them up to the top division.

Were LJ to get us promoted this season then that start isn't a million miles away.......

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

I know this was posted to annoy people more than anything, but I just took a look at Klopp's early career and there are similarities.....

He took over Mainz mid season and avoided relegation with an improved run of form, he then narrowly missed promotion for two consecutive seasons, then took them up to the top division.

Were LJ to get us promoted this season then that start isn't a million miles away.......

I definitely didn’t post that comment to annoy anyone - I really believe that LJ has the potential to be a top manager. 

I wasn’t aware of the similarities between his career thus far and Klopps early career but I am aware that LJ is a disciple of Pep and deeply admires  his game management style. I think we saw glimpses of the press at stages last season but it was fairly ineffective with the players he had available back then. Imv it was a premature attempt by LJ to mirror what Man City do so well.

I was impressed that he even tried it.

One huge advantage that LJ has had is time and a supportive owner.......very few managers  would have survived during the run of defeats but LJ has. He’s had the time to create his own squad and develop them in the way he wants - something that ‘ordinary ‘ managers rarely get the opportunity to do.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 05/06/2019 at 17:07, Bar BS3 said:

Perhaps. Yes, he didn’t spend much at Mainz. 

I still don’t think any top manager would guarantee success if they dropped down to the championship, having to work with lesser players, on tighter budgets. 

It’s all hypothetical, of course, but I certainly don’t think they’d find it easy. 

True- Bielsa didn't take Leeds up, he spent some but nothing massive.

He improved them greatly however, but he didn't quite take them up.

[Cowshed]

31 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I definitely didn’t post that comment to annoy anyone - I really believe that LJ has the potential to be a top manager. 

I wasn’t aware of the similarities between his career thus far and Klopps early career but I am aware that LJ is a disciple of Pep and deeply admires  his game management style. I think we saw glimpses of the press at stages last season but it was fairly ineffective with the players he had available back then. Imv it was a premature attempt by LJ to mirror what Man City do so well.

I was impressed that he even tried it.

One huge advantage that LJ has had is time and a supportive owner.......very few managers  would have survived during the run of defeats but LJ has. He’s had the time to create his own squad and develop them in the way he wants - something that ‘ordinary ‘ managers rarely get the opportunity to do.

 

I have done this (some) before … I am not picking on your posts specifically.

Bristol City's pressing last season was to move away from high pressing. It was a Medium block. The methodology behind high pressing goes beyond player characteristics. Guardiola bases pressing upon the commitment to strategizing the game into 4/5 main elements.

If Lee Johnson was a disciple of Pep we would be able to highlight Lee Johnsons model of play and its principles/sub principles. Klopp and Guardiola look to implement their model from the start of their roles. Everything follows that model, that future game they are striving towards comes from the foundation and objectives they set out at the outset.

Lee Johnson with respect does things quite differently.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, richwwtk said:

I know this was posted to annoy people more than anything, but I just took a look at Klopp's early career and there are similarities.....

He took over Mainz mid season and avoided relegation with an improved run of form, he then narrowly missed promotion for two consecutive seasons, then took them up to the top division.

Were LJ to get us promoted this season then that start isn't a million miles away.......

He's got the beard, so just needs to see Rylan's dentist, get a cap and to speak German!

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

If Lee Johnson was a disciple of Pep we would be able to highlight Lee Johnsons model of play and its principles/sub principles. Klopp and Guardiola look to implement their model from the start of their roles. Everything follows that model, that future game they are striving towards comes from the foundation and objectives they set out at the outset.

Lee Johnson with respect does things quite differently.

Has it occurred to you that both Pep and Klopp have both have had the time to develop their own effective styles? 

My point about LJ is that he’s is relatively young and inexperienced in managerial terms and is looking to develop a City identity by  adopting an eclectic approach. Thus far he’s had the time to build his own squad with his type of players. It’s still a work in progress of course. Why not try to use some of Peps or Klopps tactics/style and learning from the best?

 

[OneCity]

According to the theory, and it's pretty solid, anything that can happen, will happen, and does happen in a parallel universe. For example there is one where City didn't get relegated in 1980, 1982 never happened, and we're still in the top flight. Theoretically, there should even be a (crazy, extreme) version of Earth where the gas are there too!

 

[Cowshed]

4 hours ago, Robbored said:

Has it occurred to you that both Pep and Klopp have both have had the time to develop their own effective styles? 

My point about LJ is that he’s is relatively young and inexperienced in managerial terms and is looking to develop a City identity by  adopting an eclectic approach. Thus far he’s had the time to build his own squad with his type of players. It’s still a work in progress of course. Why not try to use some of Peps or Klopps tactics/style and learning from the best?

 

With respect if Mr Johnson was the disciple you suggested he is core playing principles would be in place from his first season. Klopp and Guardiola don't have styles as such. They have a style, a model of play that differs little. Guardiola uses tactical periodisation, breaking the game down into elements and working in micro and macro cycles … Tactical periodisation is reliant on the Coach having clear playing principles (the model) in place to follow.

2 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I think anyone trying to find similarities between Klopp and Pep , even early career vs LJ are wide of the mark. If you read the various books that both have produced (or written about them) there is a very dramatic difference in sense of purpose and objective. LJ has changed approach (possibly due to age and lack of experience) multiple times and this has led to confused recruitment, playing approach and strategy. 

 

This is not a model of play.

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

This is not a model of play.

Could you describe the model of play that LJ adopts? 

[Abraham Romanovich]

On 05/06/2019 at 15:28, cidered abroad said:

Don't need them. We've got Lee Johnson! Who could ask for anyone better?

As long as I live, posts like this will always make me chuckle.

Anyone else detect a hint of sarcasm ?.

 

[sephjnr]

On 05/06/2019 at 14:20, Rudolf Hucker said:

Pep out.

.

[nitpick] " 'tler!" [/nitpick]

 

[Cowshed]

On 06/06/2019 at 23:07, Robbored said:

Could you describe the model of play that LJ adopts? 

Bristol City do not have one.

There are themes within the football but these are not consistent enough and observed long enough to describe them as defining. Over a season City use/combine multiple styles. 

We could look at Bristol City being possession based and short passing but the team only marginally has more possession than its opponents and in reality is not particularly passing short = Domination possession via short passing patterns are not principles.  

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City do not have one.

There are themes within the football but these are not consistent enough and observed long enough to describe them as defining. Over a season City use/combine multiple styles. 

We could look at Bristol City being possession based and short passing but the team only marginally has more possession than its opponents and in reality is not particularly passing short = Domination possession via short passing patterns are not principles.  

LJ's key weakness in my view is the absence of a preferred model that drives recruitment and coaching.

I get the sense that he has a butterfly mind and thinks chopping and changing is the clever thing to do.

I'm all for flexibility but it has to start from the solid base of an approach that suits the players, which they understand and can execute because they have practised intensively.

[Robbored]

5 hours ago, chinapig said:

LJ's key weakness in my view is the absence of a preferred model that drives recruitment and coaching.

I get the sense that he has a butterfly mind and thinks chopping and changing is the clever thing to do.

I'm all for flexibility but it has to start from the solid base of an approach that suits the players, which they understand and can execute because they have practised intensively.

LJ says he wants a Bristol City ‘identity’......but it’s not clear to anyone but him what that actually means.

We know he’s a huge admirer of Pep and must have taken some ideas from the way Man City play but apart from the press we don’t see any other similarities.

That said he signs players only if he feels that they can play in the style he wants so it’s not about signing players and then training them into a particular style - although they do train in the LJ style and are fully aware of what he wants from them.

It has occurred to me that LJ is taking an eclectic way of developing an ‘identity’ and  that explains why he sometimes changes things but who knows maybe he’ll come up with method that becomes unique to Bristol City............