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Ultimate nail in the coffin?


Port Said Red

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I understand why people are frustrated with VAR but ultimately it made the right call last night. If it had been the other way around and no VAR existed we'd be furious for going out to an offside goal.

We were also lucky no penalty was giving again Chillwell? in the second half for the foul on the edge/inside the box. Was surprised VAR didnt give it tbh

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They need to make the rules crystal clear for VAR to work quickly and effectively.  For hand ball if they take it back to what it was I.e. if it hits your hand it’s handball then it’s easy, it might not be fair on the player if not deliberate but it worked fine like that before, and then offside either ditch the rule altogether or any part of the body offside then it’s offside.  

I fear we will end up like rugby where the refs don’t have the balls to make a decision anymore and every single try is referred to VAR.  

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7 minutes ago, jj77 said:

Has the clear and obvious error now been removed from VAR?

How is it obvious that Lingards toenail was slightly in front of the last defender?

VAR for offside isnt about clear and obvious error? THe direction for linesman is to not flag if anything is "borderline" and let play continue, then VAR will review if it was offside. It's to stop a linesman incorrectly flagging a close call and play stopping only to find out it was actually onside... which would be a farce

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20 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

They need to make the rules crystal clear for VAR to work quickly and effectively.  For hand ball if they take it back to what it was I.e. if it hits your hand it’s handball then it’s easy, it might not be fair on the player if not deliberate but it worked fine like that before, and then offside either ditch the rule altogether or any part of the body offside then it’s offside.  

I fear we will end up like rugby where the refs don’t have the balls to make a decision anymore and every single try is referred to VAR.  

Would that not lead to attacking players aiming at defenders hands /arms at close range to engineer handball penalties and free kicks? 

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20 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

They need to make the rules crystal clear for VAR to work quickly and effectively.  For hand ball if they take it back to what it was I.e. if it hits your hand it’s handball then it’s easy, it might not be fair on the player if not deliberate but it worked fine like that before, and then offside either ditch the rule altogether or any part of the body offside then it’s offside.  

I fear we will end up like rugby where the refs don’t have the balls to make a decision anymore and every single try is referred to VAR.  

I think VAR can be used for handball much better than it has been. IMO the CL final handball should have been overruled after watching a replay for 2 reasons - firstly it didnt strike his arm directly, it hit Sissoko's chest/armpit then onto his arm, which based upon the directive that proximity should be considered he had no time to react to move his arm away from the ball. Secondly, he wasn't using his arm to make his body bigger, he was instructing a team mate to cover a man/space/run. VAR should be looking at what led to the hand ball rather than just did it hit his arm and this "un-natural" position rubbish - and then also consider this all happened in a second or 2 and that he couldnt react to then move his arm

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6 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

VAR for offside isnt about clear and obvious error? THe direction for linesman is to not flag if anything is "borderline" and let play continue, then VAR will review if it was offside. It's to stop a linesman incorrectly flagging a close call and play stopping only to find out it was actually onside... which would be a farce

I just don’t think you can call that offside. 

Was camera in line with play, who decides when ball was played. Was so much easier if you were in front that’s it, can’t remember what match I was watching but VAR disallowed a goal for a players hand was in front of the defender. Which in my mind is absolutely ridiculous for how are you suppose to run not using your arms.

As someone said on here earlier offside needs to be tweaked to make it obvious. Also need to stop this letting play go on and decide after someone is going to get fouled injured due to the law.

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1 minute ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

I just don’t think you can call that offside. 

Was camera in line with play, who decides when ball was played. Was so much easier if you were in front that’s it, can’t remember what match I was watching but VAR disallowed a goal for a players hand was in front of the defender. Which in my mind is absolutely ridiculous for how are you suppose to run not using your arms.

As someone said on here earlier offside needs to be tweaked to make it obvious. Also need to stop this letting play go on and decide after someone is going to get fouled injured due to the law.

What game was it given for their hand? That's simply not correct because you can only be offside if a part of the body you can play the ball with is infront, hands/arms dont count.

I agree though camera angle can make all the difference, and that one last night wasn't straight on but I assume the technology drawing the comparison lines between each player is pretty accurate

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Forget the VAR, for me there is no way that was offside.  He was in line with the defender.  The offside laws should be changed to give the benefit to the attacking player.  Football, like all sports, is better when it is exciting, not restrictive and negative.

With less goals, less celebration, the joy and fantasy of football is diminished.  We, the fans, will suffer for this.

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2 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

Initially I thought this was a great idea.  Unfortunately as VAR comes into play only when the ball goes out of play, the receiving team will already have a free kick, so the attacking team will appeal at will, knowing that if they win it then great and if they don't it's a case of "as you were".

My suggestion was "limited" i.e. a team can appeal only once (borrowing slightly from NFL here) and in-play, so there would be a halt to the game to check, with the potential of completely surrendering momentum/set piece to opponents if done erroneously.

It means a team has to be sure it wants to do so, most teams would probably elect their captain or manager to make such a split second decision, in knowledge it's available once only and will surrender some sort of possession or set piece if they are wrong.

It solves 2 big issues - you don't have faceless people in a box intervening of their own volition to overturn marginal things no one asked for (did the Dutch appeal?) and you don't have the Swiss farce where they all appeal and we play on to another penalty.

I'm particularly struck by the second issue because it seems to me if you can allow play to continue to a penalty at the other end and bring it back, you could have void passages of play that may contain season-ending injuries or world class goals scored.

That is ridiculous and dangerous. If we are to have technology to avoid mistakes let's act immediately and only in cases where a team is convinced in the moment they've been wronged. Bonus side effect it will stop teams appealing to the ref for everything.

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56 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Forget the VAR, for me there is no way that was offside.  He was in line with the defender.  The offside laws should be changed to give the benefit to the attacking player.  Football, like all sports, is better when it is exciting, not restrictive and negative.

With less goals, less celebration, the joy and fantasy of football is diminished.  We, the fans, will suffer for this.

Quite agree. If VAR is to be used it should only be to overturn bad decisions, not incredibly marginal ones. It seemed like the ref was allowing the goal last night until VAR  stepped in. Had Holland scored it and the ref allowed it and afterwards we discovered that their goalscorer's big toenail had been in an offside position when the ball was played I would've been frankly embarrassed to ever list that amongst the bad refereeing decisions that have cost us such as The Hand of God, Lampard's 2010 goal and the 1998 corner goal that was disallowed. I would actually think it was good for the game that such marginal decisions favoured the ATTACKING team.

Furthermore, with marginal decisions a decision is rendered there and then, so celebrations can continue or be curtailed immediately. Thus, if VAR was only used for CLEARLY wrong decisions, fans would have great doubts anyway if a player looked clearly offside and the ref allowed the goal. One would stall celebrations expecting it to be disallowed. But this getting a decision right to within 0.002 mm ruins the spontaneity for supporters.

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12 hours ago, TBW said:

If it's offside, it's offside. Get over it.

Bet it doesn't.

It wasn’t even half a yard! Just let play happen. Decisions like that make the game entertaining. Frustrating against you, fantastic for you. It happens, Get on with it!

7 mins of extra time of which over half accounted for VAR stoppages. Great fun!

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I'd rather decisions be correct than the game run two minutes quicker and a wrong decision be made.

Ultimately, football is a game where it takes a ******* long time for anything to happen anyway, we see the ball bouncing around the midfield for ages before we get a shot at goal sometimes so when that shot at goal does happen, I'm good with waiting a couple of minutes to be sure that the goal is actually a goal.

How would you feel if that decision went against us in a play-off final? You'd be more than happy to wait two minutes for it to be disallowed I imagine.

Yes it holds the game up a little but if it makes the outcome correct and not based on an error, so be it.

People saying you now question if a goal is ever going to count because of VAR being introduced, no. You're wrong. We do that anyway when a decision is marginal. We always think "hold up, was that offside" or "was that over the line" because we know the rules of football and can tell if it's close anyway. Now, we've just got a system to confirm it for us and make sure we don't get ****** over. If a goal is from 30 yards out you're not going to question it, still. You won't be questionning more, you'll just get correct answers instead of calling out the referee for making the wrong decision now.

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17 minutes ago, TBW said:

How would you feel if that decision went against us in a play-off final? You'd be more than happy to wait two minutes for it to be disallowed I imagine.

I’d be fuming for a few weeks, then get over it, accept it happens and look forward to the next season.

Probably also look back at the points in the season where decisions have gone in our favour to allow us to get to that position to begin with.

This is the other issue. What makes football in the premier league, where they have all the money, more important than teams in league 2 where this technology will never be used yet bad decisions will happen week in week out?

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I mourn the "obstruction rule"

To those too young to remember this prevented players from ignoring the ball and simply blocking off the opposing player.

How often do we see a defender take the easy way out and simply block the attacking player as the ball approaches the goal line.

We all say we want more goals and entertainment so how did abolishing this rule help.

Whilst I am on it, does it annoy you when every player throws the ball away whenever it goes out of play. Clearly we don't expect any player to retrieve the ball for an opponent but the constant habit is becoming tiring and reduces the amount of minutes the ball is in play.

Feel better having got that off my chest on a wet June day. Roll on August

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We gave the laws of association football to the world and now the world is ballsing it up! Technology in football, especially VAR is an abomination. Let’s get back to the days when the flag went up instantly a player was offside and there was no talk of ‘interfering with play’ or ‘first or second phases’, when indirect free kicks were given for obstruction, and goal kicks were taken the same side that the ball crossed the goal line. Before long this great game will be like some boring American sport. An old fashioned Luddite I may be but I preferred football when it was simpler. 

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I think people are more worried that the emotion is being taken out of the game rather than getting the right decision. Last night should never have gone to VAR and of those type of decisions are going to be looked at them the game has gone for the fans.

The second VAR is introduced into the championship is the unfortunately the day i will never buy a ST again. That’s not me making a protest or anything like that, it will just mean it’s not the game for me anymore and i will find something else to do on a Saturday afternoon and will pick and choose the odd game (probably away as enjoy the crack) to attend.

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2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I don’t think people are more worried that the emotion is being taken out of the game rather than getting the right decision. Last night should never have gone to VAR and of those type of decisions are going to be looked at them the game has gone for the fans.

The second VAR is introduced into the championship is the unfortunately the day i will never buy a ST again. That’s not me making a protest or anything like that, it will just mean it’s not the game for me anymore and i will find something else to do on a Saturday afternoon and will pick and choose the odd game (probably away as enjoy the crack) to attend.

I’m not sure fans do want the correct decisions over anything else, especially against them, if City scores in the last minute to beat Rovers and VAR disallowed it correctly for offside, I can’t see many City fans being happy with that because it was the correct decision, they want their team to win, the injustice of wrong decisions makes the game interesting for me!

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11 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I’m not sure fans do want the correct decisions over anything else, especially against them, if City scores in the last minute to beat Rovers and VAR disallowed it correctly for offside, I can’t see many City fans being happy with that because it was the correct decision, they want their team to win, the injustice of wrong decisions makes the game interesting for me!

Totally agree - i had to edit my post as there was a glaring error in there!!

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28 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I think people are more worried that the emotion is being taken out of the game rather than getting the right decision. Last night should never have gone to VAR and of those type of decisions are going to be looked at them the game has gone for the fans.

The second VAR is introduced into the championship is the unfortunately the day i will never buy a ST again. That’s not me making a protest or anything like that, it will just mean it’s not the game for me anymore and i will find something else to do on a Saturday afternoon and will pick and choose the odd game (probably away as enjoy the crack) to attend.

I feel the same way, I will not go to watch a game with VAR, if goals like last night are being disallowed.  Football is already becoming too boring with safe play, pedestrian passes, overly defensive set ups, and now seemingly good goals being chalked off.  The future sounds very dull indeed.

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What happened to the clear and obvious error? That wasn't clear and it wasn't obvious. The amount of time to reach the decision proves that. The camera angle didn't help either. I think the angle may have given an illusion that it was offside.

 

Why don't they develop a hawk eye system for offsides? It would barely take seconds to know if it was offside or not.

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15 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

There was an instance very late in the game tonight where a Dutch player was played through and was very clearly offside, but the flag stayed down and they played on just in case a goal was scored and VAR could rule it out  BUT the ball rolled into the box and Pickford came tearing out to tackle the striker. What if one of them had been seriously injured chasing a ball that would never result in a goal. A sensible, early flag would have brought play to a stop. Marginal decisions, maybe let it go but instances where the player is yards offside is just dangerous.

The rule changes around not flagging when VAR is being used will cause havoc . Can see confusion for officials when reffing cup games with with no VAR after reffing Prem games week in week out with it ! Plus after last nights offside I’m going to patent grass coloured football boots to confuse the @@@@ our of VAR !!! :) 

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2 hours ago, Up The City! said:

What happened to the clear and obvious error? That wasn't clear and it wasn't obvious. The amount of time to reach the decision proves that. The camera angle didn't help either. I think the angle may have given an illusion that it was offside.

 

Why don't they develop a hawk eye system for offsides? It would barely take seconds to know if it was offside or not.

My issue is that they are bringing a level of precision that no one will ever convince me is justified. It’s like they think they are filming the end of a 100m race where it can be done to mm’s.

However, there is a second factor here...”when the ball is played”. When is that? As the passer first makes contact with the ball to pass? When the ball first leaves the passers foot? Is the frame they have exactly when the passers foot first makes contact? Is the angle of the line exactly at 90 degrees? I just do not believe all those things can give you accuracy to the mm, although we pretend they do. 

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52 minutes ago, cityexile said:

My issue is that they are bringing a level of precision that no one will ever convince me is justified.

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would wonder if the real reason for this technology is not for unnecessary levels of precision, but to create a previously unavailable intervention for off-pitch decision making that ushers in the possibility of the league having at least one opportunity to "direct" a match remotely. "Match director" is not a new concept in sport but it's been a foreign concept in football where everything is decided on the pitch as a result of the players own efforts and the officials interpretation.

Some American sports tinker with rules and create opportunities for adjudication and adjustment in such a way as to leave open the possibility to orchestrate certain elements, blurring the line between sport and theatre. Commercially all sports are effectively products and if UEFA or FIFA want the best product they have to ensure the best theatre - sometimes that requires intervention to steer a result, leave open an outcome, or create possibility of future showdowns, and any off-field "lever" helps that aim.

I've got my tin foil hat on. ?

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On 07/06/2019 at 10:32, reddogkev said:

Forget the VAR, for me there is no way that was offside.  He was in line with the defender.  The offside laws should be changed to give the benefit to the attacking player.  Football, like all sports, is better when it is exciting, not restrictive and negative.

With less goals, less celebration, the joy and fantasy of football is diminished.  We, the fans, will suffer for this.

No we won’t, how many goals are actually controversial? A very tiny percentage. If the right outcome is achieved what’s the issue?

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On 07/06/2019 at 14:09, Tinmans Love Child said:

I’m not sure fans do want the correct decisions over anything else, especially against them, if City scores in the last minute to beat Rovers and VAR disallowed it correctly for offside, I can’t see many City fans being happy with that because it was the correct decision, they want their team to win, the injustice of wrong decisions makes the game interesting for me!

But it’s effectively the same as not scoring at all?

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On 07/06/2019 at 14:40, Up The City! said:

What happened to the clear and obvious error? That wasn't clear and it wasn't obvious. The amount of time to reach the decision proves that. The camera angle didn't help either. I think the angle may have given an illusion that it was offside.

 

Why don't they develop a hawk eye system for offsides? It would barely take seconds to know if it was offside or not.

Ffs offside isn’t about “clear and obvious”

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On 07/06/2019 at 17:17, cityexile said:

My issue is that they are bringing a level of precision that no one will ever convince me is justified. It’s like they think they are filming the end of a 100m race where it can be done to mm’s.

However, there is a second factor here...”when the ball is played”. When is that? As the passer first makes contact with the ball to pass? When the ball first leaves the passers foot? Is the frame they have exactly when the passers foot first makes contact? Is the angle of the line exactly at 90 degrees? I just do not believe all those things can give you accuracy to the mm, although we pretend they do. 

This is the best argument that I’ve heard to be fair

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