Adam Webster - Update - Sold to Brighton

[redsince1994]

12 hours ago, chinapig said:

I have had 2 talented colleagues leave for better jobs recently and they were both as dedicated as ever up to the last minute. Neither would have dreamed of letting their colleagues or clients down.

Why indeed should footballers be any different?

Yep, in a month I am off to a much more lucrative job. In my final 30 days I plan to work just as hard, and put my all into training my replacement so the business isn't harmed by my departure.

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Brighton are a much bigger club than us.

Accept this hammer blow to your ego and you’ll see things much clearer  

Been reading this debate 

I wouldn’t say Brighton are a much bigger club 

They are a Premier League Club , that’s the difference.,and therefore immediately more attractive 

 

Theoretically , we get promoted this season , they get relegated

Whos the biggest club then 

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Yeah 15,000 season ticket holders who've been raving all year about this brilliant defender we've got, will now have to make do with watching bloody Bailey Wright or Nathan Baker again. Great. Meanwhile smaller clubs like Brighton end up in the Premier League. 

I agree with your points to an extent, historically speaking- we were ahead of Brighton in the pecking order as recently as 2010-11 but things have changed very quickly.

Some research into various stages of development over recent times and you will see why they were in a position to reach the PL before us.

Accounts, infrastructure, development- all that. They also miraculously saw their fanbase rise from an average of 7,351 in their last season at the Withdean in League One promotion to 20,003 in their first Championship season at the Amex- this is a major boost and sees a club shoot up- to say nothing of differences in off the field infrastructure until 3-4 years ago.  26,212 next season- imagine us averaging 26,000 at this level!! When did we last average this in a season? Smaller club arguably, but with a large latent, dormant fanbase it would appear.

This stuff makes a big difference- this stuff matters, especially in an era of FFP. (Also a rich owner to throw into the mix- like us, like many).

[AshtonGreat]

18 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Typical @AshtonGreat- tch!

Haha what does that mean? 

[Coppello]

9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Been reading this debate 

I wouldn’t say Brighton are a much bigger club 

They are a Premier League Club , that’s the difference.,and therefore immediately more attractive 

 

Theoretically , we get promoted this season , they get relegated

Whos the biggest club then 

I do agree with your point to some extent. They're currently a far bigger club/more attractive proposition. They've had higher average gates than us for the past 10 years, got to an FA Cup semi-final last season, have been in the top flight for the past three years and have finished above us most years in the past decade. Their infrastructure off the pitch is also exceptional too. 

I appreciate that their history hasn't always been rosy but given that we've not been in the top flight for almost 40 years, we don't exactly have loads to shout about.  

Edit: This one is for you too @AshtonGreat

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Been reading this debate 

I wouldn’t say Brighton are a much bigger club 

They are a Premier League Club , that’s the difference.,and therefore immediately more attractive 

 

Theoretically , we get promoted this season , they get relegated

Whos the biggest club then 

I can’t see any sensible argument that has us as a bigger club than Brighton right now, which is ultimately all that matters to a player in deciding on a transfer. 

I doubt Webster cares if we had bigger crowds in the 70s or whatever people use to measure success as a club. The only thing that really matters is the here and now. 

Of course the ‘mega’ teams don’t lose that status overnight, ie Man Utd can have a few dire seasons and still be an enormous club and a huge draw, but for the likes of us and Brighton, not so much. A few years of failure for either club and they’d be back to being a bit of a nothing club in the eyes of the wider world  

I see Brighton and us as very similar clubs in terms of their strategy/philosophy - ie sustainable development and trusting in the process, they’re just a few years ahead in terms of execution. 

[AshtonGreat]

30 minutes ago, downendcity said:

For comparison look at Derby ( previously known as Frank Lampard's Derby) a club most would regard as a major competitor, ex premier league able to compete much better than us financially  especially after their dodgy stadium deal in the spring.

Their challenge last season was heavily built on 3 loanees ( 2 of which were arguably their best players - among the best in the division)but  their loanees have returned to their parent club's.

Derby's manager's first press conference was completely deflating from a Derby fans' point of view, as he effectively admitted that the cupboard was bare - despite the owner "selling" Pride Park for £81m !)and that they would have to make do with academy players an loanees and their owner is now preaching sustainability is the way forward. I guess they would love to be losing a player for £20m so they can reinvest in the team.

Our challenge last season was also built on loanees - Kalas and Dasilva - but we have just spent £10m to sign them permanently so they can contribute to this season's challenge.I know Webster is under contract and the club could of course reject any offer. I also know that players should act professionally and do their job come what may, but how is a player not going to be affected by knowing that he had the chance of playing of the premier league increasing his personal income by a staggering amount but his club wouldn't allow him what possibly could be his one and only chance? 

The harsh reality of football's financial life , and especially with ffp biting ( 3 clubs had to carry out stadium sales to avoid punishment) is that even without Webster, keeping the rest of the team together will result in losses that will take us close to the ffp limits of £13m per season, so we still need player sales to cover losses and to fund other player acquisition - where is the money going to come from for the goalscoring striker everyone say we need?

Much as though many won't like it, in the next season or so, I think we will see that SL has been ahead of the game and that clubs used to competing at the top of the table by throwing money at it, in the good old way, will be coming down to earth with an ffp bump. We will still have club's with parachute payments to contend with of course, although Villa look as though they are well on the way to spending all their parachute payment even before they've been relegated, but our relative position will be getting stronger - you only have to look at other championship clubs transfer activity ( tor lack of) this summer to see that is already happening.

 

 

It's just man management isn't it. Put your arm around the player and say "Give us another brilliant season, lad, and we'll let you fulfil your dream next season." After all, it's a two-way thing: him leaving screws up OUR aspirations somewhat. 

[BRISTOL86]

Just now, AshtonGreat said:

It's just man management isn't it. Put your arm around the player and say "Give us another brilliant season, lad, and we'll let you fulfil your dream next season." After all, it's a two-way thing: him leaving screws up OUR aspirations somewhat. 

I’m sure it never even occurred to LJ to ‘put his arm around’ Webster. Ah well, too late now I guess.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

37 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

This transfer , if it goes through, reinforces the need to take your chances when they come. Last season we were in a great position with a great defence but chose not to go for it and get the striker we needed in January. Now we look like losing our best defender and face the prospect of rebuilding at the back even if we get the striker we need. And the rate at which we are losing are best players you never know when the chance might come again.

You’re wrong.  We didn’t ‘choose not to go for it’.  We tried to sign a striker in the notoriously difficult January transfer window, but failed.  Significant difference.

[AshtonGreat]

4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I can’t see any sensible argument that has us as a bigger club than Brighton right now, which is ultimately all that matters to a player in deciding on a transfer. 

I doubt Webster cares if we had bigger crowds in the 70s or whatever people use to measure success as a club. The only thing that really matters is the here and now. 

Of course the ‘mega’ teams don’t lose that status overnight, ie Man Utd can have a few dire seasons and still be an enormous club and a huge draw, but for the likes of us and Brighton, not so much. A few years of failure for either club and they’d be back to being a bit of a nothing club in the eyes of the wider world  

I see Brighton and us as very similar clubs in terms of their strategy/philosophy - ie sustainable development and trusting in the process, they’re just a few years ahead in terms of execution. 

Brighton are a club who have a high chance of relegation though - looks like Webster could follow in the footsteps of those forgotten men Bryan and Reid. 

[AshtonGreat]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I’m sure it never even occurred to LJ to ‘put his arm around’ Webster. Ah well, too late now I guess.

Well he is the boss

[BRISTOL86]

1 minute ago, AshtonGreat said:

Brighton are a club who have a high chance of relegation though - looks like Webster could follow in the footsteps of those forgotten men Bryan and Reid. 

Both of which have massively inflated their salary - multiple times over - and played premier league football. It’s like you’re purposely missing the point. 

LJ said Webster’s salary will increase SIX FOLD. 

Are you seriously telling me that if your boss ‘put his arm around you’, you’d stay when an offer like that is on the table? 

[stortfordred]

And the step ladder isn’t big enough

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Both of which have massively inflated their salary - multiple times over - and played premier league football. It’s like you’re purposely missing the point. 

LJ said Webster’s salary will increase SIX FOLD. 

Did he?  That means Brighton are offering him about £72k pw!!

[BigTone]

50 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I love a mixed metaphor.

I prefer a nice Chicken Jalfezzi

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

I prefer a nice Chicken Jalfezzi

Chicken Tarka for me - a little otter.

[BRISTOL86]

6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Did he?  That means Brighton are offering him about £72k pw!!

Wouldn’t surprise me at all to be honest given the gulf between the finances of PL clubs vs Championship clubs. I’m guessing Dunk is a big earner for them too so they’re counting on his wages being freed. 

[BigTone]

15 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

It's just man management isn't it. Put your arm around the player and say "Give us another brilliant season, lad, and we'll let you fulfil your dream next season." After all, it's a two-way thing: him leaving screws up OUR aspirations somewhat. 

And he suffers a career ending injury. Why would he not take up the offer now.

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Did he?  That means Brighton are offering him about £72k pw!!

I keep laughing at this 

Tbf I think you will find it was LJ talked about six fold salaries 

Us to Brighton ?

Six fold

No chance

 

 

[citywest30]

10 hours ago, ncnsbcfc said:

The annoying thing about this whole Webster saga. Is that it appears that we've known about him probably going all summer. But now it looks to be happening, we want to bring in 4 players.

I understand the reasoning behind replacing him at cb. But are we now saying that signing the other 3 players was dependant on the money from a potential Webster transfer. If so, that goes against the "we're in a great shape financially" mantra that's been quoted through the summer.

In reality the vast majority of transfer fees paid, have been so far funded by the departures. If we are in such a great shape, why has the possible signings.been delayed?

We.know the problems up front with getting people in. But rb,Cm? It's all very strange.

Maybe we don't have the money to spend that people think we have after all?

I think it's very likely that we knew about him possibly going so we've  had two types of targets - expensive and more budget. We've then been able to play a wait and see game. Now it looks as if he is going, we can home in on the more expensive targets.

[Coppello]

16 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Both of which have massively inflated their salary - multiple times over - and played premier league football. It’s like you’re purposely missing the point. 

LJ said Webster’s salary will increase SIX FOLD. 

Are you seriously telling me that if your boss ‘put his arm around you’, you’d stay when an offer like that is on the table? 

To further your point, he probably doesn't even want to put an arm around him if it meets our valuation. It's ultimately up to both the club and the player to agree terms. We have got what we what for him, why would we convince him to stay. £25m is a serious amount of money for a player that hadn't played more than 28 games in a season until last year. It's the kind of money we can't turn and I personally would be disappointed if we kept him with that on the table. To put it into perspective, we could buy 3 players and break our transfer record each time and still have change left over. 

[BRISTOL86]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I keep laughing at this 

Tbf I think you will find it was LJ talked about six fold salaries 

Us to Brighton ?

Six fold

No chance

 

 

To be fair if KITR figures are correct and we’re paying our best player £12k, it’s no wonder we don’t keep them.

He’s very underpaid here if he’s on £12k

[General Zod]

I get that any deal above 20m is too good for the player and club to turn down.  But we need to be careful we don’t fall back to being a lower mid table team, all be it a wealthy one.  whilst we seem to have nailed the selling high side of the business model I think we are starting to struggle with the recruitment side especially now our own standards are so high.  We’ve been unable to replace Reid (out priced?). We have been unable to replace Duric for 2 windows.  We are struggling to find better than what we already have in CM.  I know the window isn’t shut yet but losing quality each year will surely catch you out in the end or at the very least increases the likelihood of LJ getting frustrated and taking an opportunity elsewhere.

 

[BRISTOL86]

Not sure how accurate but article online suggests Dunk on £45k/w before bonuses at BHA so a contract of £50-£60k (4/5 times his salary here) for their record transfer doesn’t seem out of the realms of possibility.

The likes of Villa have paid similar wages for Championship players. 

[chinapig]

34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree with your points to an extent, historically speaking- we were ahead of Brighton in the pecking order as recently as 2010-11 but things have changed very quickly.

Some research into various stages of development over recent times and you will see why they were in a position to reach the PL before us.

Accounts, infrastructure, development- all that. They also miraculously saw their fanbase rise from an average of 7,351 in their last season at the Withdean in League One promotion to 20,003 in their first Championship season at the Amex- this is a major boost and sees a club shoot up- to say nothing of differences in off the field infrastructure until 3-4 years ago.  26,212 next season- imagine us averaging 26,000 at this level!! When did we last average this in a season? Smaller club arguably, but with a large latent, dormant fanbase it would appear.

This stuff makes a big difference- this stuff matters, especially in an era of FFP. (Also a rich owner to throw into the mix- like us, like many).

Didn't they get promoted with a debt of over £100m though? Pre FFP days I think.

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

To be fair if KITR figures are correct and we’re paying our best player £12k, it’s no wonder we don’t keep them.

He’s very underpaid here if he’s on £12k

Sounds about right to me for when he wa actually signed from Ipswich having been in and out of their team and with an injury record that wasn't good.

I would think he would be offered a better contract after last season but when a Premier league club comes in, thats it - gone.

[Tipps69]

4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

To be fair if KITR figures are correct and we’re paying our best player £12k, it’s no wonder we don’t keep them.

He’s very underpaid here if he’s on £12k

But as a player that arrived for around £3.5m & signed a 4 year contract, would you suggest we gave him £30,000 p/w from the start?

[Ska Junkie]

11 minutes ago, citywest30 said:

I think it's very likely that we knew about him possibly going so we've  had two types of targets - expensive and more budget. We've then been able to play a wait and see game. Now it looks as if he is going, we can home in on the more expensive targets.

If Clarke is heading our way for a year, we wouldn't have the pressure to sign someone immediately I suppose although I agree that LJ would have had his targets already identified.

My concern is that, if Clarke comes on loan, will we be in a position to sign a quality left sided CH next year or will we have spent the money elsewhere? I wouldn't have thought we would be so naive as to do that, at least I hope we wouldn't.

Can some one explain FFP to me please as it was mentioned in this thread that the Eisa and Webster fees would be in the 2020 figures. Does that mean we couldn't spend the Webster money until next year or would any fee paid be offset by the fee received for AW hence complying with FFP?

[sh1t_ref_again]

Its a shame the window closes just after the season starts, as I would like to have seen what Taylor Moore could do as Webs replacement, I think they are very similar players, and think he will be good given time to get use to the championship. The problem is it would be such a gamble to go into the season without having tried him first over a number of games, although I suppose we still have sicknote (I stubbed my toe so I can have Christmas off) and Wright for cover. This could work but not sure fans would find very acceptable and will quickly turn if the gamble went wrong.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Didn't they get promoted with a debt of over £100m though? Pre FFP days I think.

Do you mean from this level or League One?

A lot of it may have been the stadia and infrastructure- I was convinced for a while that they could have breached FFP but did some digging and think they likely complied in the 3 years until May 2017.

@AshtonGreat

Brighton a smaller club historically potentially yes.

However, a few figures to ponder- am using BCFC Holdings Accounts for avoidance of doubt- the h:

From 2010/12 to 2012/13.

Bristol City- (Championship) 2010/11 v Brighton- (League One) 2010/11

• Turnover- £11,994, 649  v £5,925,822 
• Average Attendance 14,605 v 7,352
• Commercial Income- Struggling to find it for us, certainly not listed as its own category but between £3-3.5m maybe v £743,593.

Bristol City- (Championship) 2011/12 v Brighton- (Championship) 2011/12 

• Turnover- £11,876,923  v £22,192,554 
• Average Attendance 13,846 v 20,029
• Commercial Income- Struggling to find it for us, certainly not listed as its own category but between £3.3-4m maybe v £3,941,071.

Bristol City- (Championship) 2012/13 v Brighton- (Championship) 2012/13 

• Turnover- £9,903,422  v £23,389,185 
• Average Attendance 13,348 v 26,326
• Commercial Income- Struggling to find it for us, certainly not listed as its own category but between £1.9-2.6m maybe v £4,204,166. Dunno if you'd class catering income as commercial or not, certainly if so then it's close to £6m.

I won't yet even get into the differences between us in League One and during ground redevelopment lower attendances and higher than it was but not optimum income streams!

This is how they were in a position and a much stronger one to push for the PL before us, despite being the "smaller club".

As well as our steady decline and slippages, analyse their stratospheric growth in all 3 years from Withdean to Amex in a short space of time!