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southvillekiddy

Where there's a scarcity things cost more

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1 hour ago, southvillekiddy said:

Work it out. if a company is unsuccessful, has a poor record historically and image would you want to work for them?

The four Clubs you mention, including one with a long history in football, have impressed players, coaches and a management team to want to go and work there. The Clubs have convinced them they are going somewhere. 

What do you make of what Mark Ashton told the media during the Christmas transfer window the season before last when we were in a strong position?

 

No. I asked your politely to explain it. You have failed to do so.  

What was the image of Bournemouth, Burnley, Huddersfield, Wigan that helped them achieve promotion? How did they impress? 

Bournemouth gained promotion via financial irregularity x Eddie Howes coaching acumen. 

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On 22/06/2019 at 10:27, southvillekiddy said:

Agree with you mate. What is the Club doing to change our current profile

Spot on pal. The club are slowly heading in the right direction with the stadium, training ground and branding etc. but it's the actual football related stuff that speaks volumes: signings, wages, ambition, style, consistency etc. 

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On 22/06/2019 at 12:24, southvillekiddy said:

You make 2 very salient points Major.

Has our Club worked out why we are unfashionable? We've had the World Wide Web since 1991and online shopping for over a decade. If football is now a business what has our Club done to change the image of our Club and hence attract the very best employees?

If you are a footballer playing for a Lancashire based Club you can spend your whole career moving between dozens of Clubs in that county without uprooting your family and networks.

Bristol is the sixth biggest city in England but you would not think so from the the status of its two football Clubs.

Thank you SK , I think we are perceived differently these days as has been pointed out , with a ‘ new’ ground , top quality infrastructure , young dynamic coaching team , certain success in the Cups and Championship finishes . 

I believe the club know what’s needed but for us to become ‘ fashionable ‘ we have to back all this up with success on the field.

Finishing eighth in our division is commendable but it doesn’t scream of demanding Prem football. 

Who remembers the League cup losers , let alone those teams knocked out in the semifinals ? 

Clubs like Leeds, Derby, Boro ... are consistently either in the Prem or fighting for promotion to it therefore have a higher profile than us and would seem a more interesting prospect for ambitious footballers who don’t know the many good things going on at Ashton Gate .

 We will get there I’m sure .

 I remember when Boro were like us , never having won a major domestic trophy .

 

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20 hours ago, Cowshed said:

No. I asked your politely to explain it. You have failed to do so.  

What was the image of Bournemouth, Burnley, Huddersfield, Wigan that helped them achieve promotion? How did they impress? 

Bournemouth gained promotion via financial irregularity x Eddie Howes coaching acumen. 

I agree that it's hard to explain what Bournemouth have done with gates of 12,000 but as you say Eddie Howe impresses potential signings. So he is large part of their successful image. Burnley have a long proud history especially in the old First Division. They've topped the English Leauge twice and won the FA Cup. So their name is a strong brand, you don't need much time to recognise it and they have an outstanding english manager in Sean Dyche (wonder why as an ex-player he hasn't been after managing Bristol City?) who again can attract high quality signings. Wigan had a dynamic millionaire Chairman who was determined to achieve Premiership football for a small Lancashire town. He was impressive enough to get Roberto Martinez, who in turn attracted top players.

So to summarise: Changing the image of Bristol City : Every section of the game as well as our catchment area of a million+ supporters has to know who we are and take us seriously as a progressive Club with Premiership ambitions that appoints the highest quality staff and players.We have to shake off the strong negative image of our Club, especially in our home city, of never having done anything and never likely to.

Our ground and training facilities have improved but we are not sufficiently well-known Nationally and we have no real status in our own city.. So a significant publicity campaign has to made. Bristolian kids should be wearing our shirt and not Chelsea'a etcc..The Club has to reach out more energetically and impress the less-well informed that Bristol is a major city. We have to employ top people to represent us to all sections of the game and avoid the type of major gaff committed by Mark Ashton the Christmas before last that torpedoed our promotion push and convinced Reid, Bryan and Flint that Bristol City was not the place for them. We have a decent young manager but he is unable to attract quality signings because nobody knows who he is and he hasn't achieved anything yet. We have to have a truly ambitious Owner who leaves the football side to an internationally known manager that he finally has the guts to engage.This type of manager, such as Nuno Espirito Santo, with an excellent coaching team and the ability to attract top quality signings will take us to the Premiership and keep us there.  

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I sound like a broken record when I say this, but it still stands, and I might quote it from now on since I say it every ******* time this is brought up.

Quote

If your fans are concerned about how FFP impacts the clubs bottom-line, you do not have the spending power to either mount a challenge for Premier League football, or sustain yourselves in the Premier League.

While I don't fully agree with the idea that we need to overspend to achieve promotion to the Premier League, I don't buy into the idea that we're ready to mount a serious challenge, or that we'll gain a position every year until we're in the playoffs or automatically promoted. The Championship is a moving target every year, and saying "maybe next year" will mean **** all when the Premier League spits out three strong contenders to jump straight back up again.

On top of this, if by some stroke of luck we were to achieve promotion this year with a similar squad to what we have now, what does that next season look like? We've seen a mixture of spunking hundreds of millions on a brand-new established side, and sticking with a Championship level side and expecting success against some of the best teams in world football, and neither works.

I don't want to be promoted if it means we'll get canned every week and thrown back into the second-tier with a downbeat side. I want us to be promoted with a squad that resembles a top-table Championship side, and whether you like it or not, the best way to do that is to pay top-level Championship fees/salaries. If FFP is a problem, then I'll say what I'll say to people that want me to build something they cannot afford - **** you, pay me.

We can win promotion the way we're building right now, but we need to embrace the fact that it's going to take a while. One bad season can wipe out several seasons of work, and thankfully we've not hit that bad season yet - but the risk is there if the clubs long-term plan hits a speed bump and decides to take a few more years.

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On 22/06/2019 at 11:25, southvillekiddy said:

So please tell me why we aren't in the Premiership as all those teams you list have been or are?

 

You got remember that we’ve been very poorly run so much so a keyboard from bros was chairman for a bit.

We let promising players go for **** all or peanuts or with proper sell on clauses.

Terry Cooper(proper legend should be a statue of him too) used to wash our kit,  drive the bus and countless other things no manager of a professional club should do! 

The Danny Wilson era whilst was entertaining quite a few of the players at the time were on the piss! 

But hopefully now we’ve turned the corner so to speak and we are starting to build towards it again!

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4 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

I agree that it's hard to explain what Bournemouth have done with gates of 12,000

It isn't!

They spent an obscene amount on wages and flouted all the FFP rules.

However, under the old regulations their promotion meant the EFL could do **** all about it.

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8 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

I agree that it's hard to explain what Bournemouth have done with gates of 12,000 but as you say Eddie Howe impresses potential signings. So he is large part of their successful image. Burnley have a long proud history especially in the old First Division. They've topped the English Leauge twice and won the FA Cup. So their name is a strong brand, you don't need much time to recognise it and they have an outstanding english manager in Sean Dyche (wonder why as an ex-player he hasn't been after managing Bristol City?) who again can attract high quality signings. Wigan had a dynamic millionaire Chairman who was determined to achieve Premiership football for a small Lancashire town. He was impressive enough to get Roberto Martinez, who in turn attracted top players.

So to summarise: Changing the image of Bristol City : Every section of the game as well as our catchment area of a million+ supporters has to know who we are and take us seriously as a progressive Club with Premiership ambitions that appoints the highest quality staff and players.We have to shake off the strong negative image of our Club, especially in our home city, of never having done anything and never likely to.

Our ground and training facilities have improved but we are not sufficiently well-known Nationally and we have no real status in our own city.. So a significant publicity campaign has to made. Bristolian kids should be wearing our shirt and not Chelsea'a etcc..The Club has to reach out more energetically and impress the less-well informed that Bristol is a major city. We have to employ top people to represent us to all sections of the game and avoid the type of major gaff committed by Mark Ashton the Christmas before last that torpedoed our promotion push and convinced Reid, Bryan and Flint that Bristol City was not the place for them. We have a decent young manager but he is unable to attract quality signings because nobody knows who he is and he hasn't achieved anything yet. We have to have a truly ambitious Owner who leaves the football side to an internationally known manager that he finally has the guts to engage.This type of manager, such as Nuno Espirito Santo, with an excellent coaching team and the ability to attract top quality signings will take us to the Premiership and keep us there.  

I thank you for the reply but you have hardly articulated how the image of Bournemouth, Burnley, Huddersfield, Wigan that helped them achieve promotion.

I seriously doubt that as a Championship club Burnley being a top level team in the seventies was a draw to players who were not even born then.

Wigan had a Chairman who spent massively hundreds of % past income. Now no longer allowed under FFP. Martinez was paid a salary far beyond what he received at Swansea.

Post 57 highlights Bournemouth's spending.

It does not back your your point about image beyond the financial. 

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12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I thank you for the reply but you have hardly articulated how the image of Bournemouth, Burnley, Huddersfield, Wigan that helped them achieve promotion.

I seriously doubt that as a Championship club Burnley being a top level team in the seventies was a draw to players who were not even born then.

Wigan had a Chairman who spent massively hundreds of % past income. Now no longer allowed under FFP. Martinez was paid a salary far beyond what he received at Swansea.

Post 57 highlights Bournemouth's spending.

It does not back your your point about image beyond the financial. 

Fair play mate. We'll have to agree to differ. Do you think the image of our Club nationally is satisfactory? How long do you think it will be before the current regime at Bristol City achieves Premiership football? How long are you prepared to wait before you would want a change?

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16 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

It isn't!

They spent an obscene amount on wages and flouted all the FFP rules.

However, under the old regulations their promotion meant the EFL could do **** all about it.

Okay mate. You could say things have worked out nicely for our owner on the FFP front. How about if he just had the will to spend what must be a fairly modest amount compared to huge signings and obscene players wages on one thing - hiring a Manager with an international reputation?

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5 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Okay mate. You could say things have worked out nicely for our owner on the FFP front. How about if he just had the will to spend what must be a fairly modest amount compared to huge signings and obscene players wages on one thing - hiring a Manager with an international reputation?

Because it would be a big expense with absolutely no guarantee of success?

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2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Because it would be a big expense with absolutely no guarantee of success?

No guarantee of success or more guarantee of success? SL wants to stick with a Coach who is presently relatively unknown in England and totally unknown internationally. Whether we like it or not success in the Premiership currently goes with having a foreign manager who attracts quality foreign players. By the way, I'm as disappointed as anyone that our FA cannot train British managers to be world beaters.

When are Bristol City FC going to stop being safe and parochial? Setting aside the big money signings such as Fammy and Jonathan, we have wasted millions in signing scores and scores of 3rd rate players seemingly with the hope that they magically become quality players. Surely appointing one top-flight manager would cost less?

Edited by southvillekiddy

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6 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

No guarantee of success or more guarantee of success? SL wants to stick with a Coach who is presently relatively unknown in England and totally unknown internationally. Whether we like it or not success in the Premiership currently goes with having a foreign manager who attracts quality foreign players. By the way, I'm as disappointed as anyone that our FA cannot train British managers to be world beaters.

When are Bristol City FC going to stop being safe and parochial? Setting aside the big money signings such as Fammy and Jonathan, we have wasted millions in signing scores and scores of 2nd rate players seemingly with the hope that they magically become quality players. Surely appointing one top-flight manager would cost less?

Go one, list those "scores and scores" of second rate players...

Unless you manage 20 you haven't got one score.

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12 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Go one, list those "scores and scores" of second rate players...

Unless you manage 20 you haven't got one score.

Don't like your tone mate. Look back over the years you've been following City (in my case 55 ) and see how many players have been truly memorable and how many you have forgotten even played for us.

Edited by southvillekiddy

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6 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Don't like your tone mate. Look back over the years you've been following City (in my case 55 ) and see how many players have been truly memorable and how many you have forgotten even played for us. By the way changed it to 3rd rate.

 

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6 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Don't like your tone mate. Look back over the years you've been following City (in my case 55 ) and see how many players have been truly memorable and how many you have forgotten even played for us.

You don't like the fact I'm challenging you.

We've gone down the route of big money on names- David James, Jody Morris, Stern John...

The result was the start of our path to relegation.

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1 minute ago, JamesBCFC said:

You don't like the fact I'm challenging you.

We've gone down the route of big money on names- David James, Jody Morris, Stern John...

The result was the start of our path to relegation.

Love a challenge. Well you've chosen has-beens. Morris never played for us????  You are actually supporting my case - wasting millions spending in the wrong place.

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24 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Love a challenge. Well you've chosen has-beens. Morris never played for us????  You are actually supporting my case - wasting millions spending in the wrong place.

Yes he did.

You lamented wasted millions on second rate players, hoping they became good. Those I listed were all players that were proven quality at some point before we signed them, not 'punts' that we hoped would develop.

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48 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

No guarantee of success or more guarantee of success? SL wants to stick with a Coach who is presently relatively unknown in England and totally unknown internationally. Whether we like it or not success in the Premiership currently goes with having a foreign manager who attracts quality foreign players. By the way, I'm as disappointed as anyone that our FA cannot train British managers to be world beaters.

When are Bristol City FC going to stop being safe and parochial? Setting aside the big money signings such as Fammy and Jonathan, we have wasted millions in signing scores and scores of 3rd rate players seemingly with the hope that they magically become quality players. Surely appointing one top-flight manager would cost less?

If you think LJ is not well known and well thought of in the English game I think you are being a touch parochial.

I'm intrigued though as to what you mean by managers with an international reputation. I assume you don't believe we could persuade the likes of Allegri or Benitez, who are currently available, so can you suggest some names?

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4 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Fair play mate. We'll have to agree to differ. Do you think the image of our Club nationally is satisfactory? 

It would depend on how you view what is satisfactory. If we consider that to be reputation I do not see Bristol City as being a  bad club in an industry that does not run on profit maximisation. This is of very little concern to many pros, its a mercenary business, they will go where the money is including the bad clubs. 

4 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

 How long do you think it will be before the current regime at Bristol City achieves Premiership football? How long are you prepared to wait before you would want a change?

The current regime is Mr Lansdown. How long? It is a daft hypothetical question. I feel the current regime is in a relatively healthy position to achieve promotion in the future. Huge amounts of resource have been put in, huge changes have taken place and in general fans are very happy with the status quo. Clubs with fans wanting regime change do not see the increases in attendances Bristol City have. 

The change you want to see in your first post is Mr Lansdown spending ever more money, even though he already bankrolls Bristol City. That's the image you appear to want to see. No great footballing philosophy there, no lofty aspiring to be different, its you spend more Mr Lansdown. 

1 hour ago, southvillekiddy said:

No guarantee of success or more guarantee of success? SL wants to stick with a Coach who is presently relatively unknown in England and totally unknown internationally. Whether we like it or not success in the Premiership currently goes with having a foreign manager who attracts quality foreign players. By the way, I'm as disappointed as anyone that our FA cannot train British managers to be world beaters.

The FA provide tuition and course for coaches to attain the same qualification as their European peers.  Pro licence badges are a framework you must pass to Manage. You if you have the drive and backing of a club at semi pro level in theory can get a pro licence.That is it.

Success in the Premier league goes with cash. Its cyclic in nature. The Premiership can afford the very very best coaches and in turn that starves British coaches here of opportunity. The same thing happens with opportunity for home grown players.

Edited by Cowshed

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

hest league in the world It would depend on how you view what is satisfactory. If we consider that to be reputation I do not see Bristol City as being a  bad club in an industry that does not run on profit maximisation. This is of very little concern to many pros, its a mercenary business, they will go where the money is including the bad clubs. 

The current regime is Mr Lansdown. How long? It is a daft hypothetical question. I feel the current regime is in a relatively healthy position to achieve promotion in the future. Huge amounts of resource have been put in, huge changes have taken place and in general fans are very happy with the status quo. Clubs with fans wanting regime change do not see the increases in attendances Bristol City have. 

The change you want to see in your first post is Mr Lansdown spending ever more money, even though he already bankrolls Bristol City. That's the image YOU want to see. No great footballing philosophy there, no aspiring to be different, its you spend more Mr Lansdown. 

The FA provide tuition and course for coaches to attain the same qualification as their European peers.  Pro licence badges are a framework you must pass to Manage. You if you have the drive and backing of a club at semi pro level in theory can get a pro licence.That is it.

Success in the Premier league goes with cash. Its cyclic in nature. The Premiership can afford the very very best coaches and in turn that starves British coaches here of opportunity. The same thing happens with opportunity for home grown players.

I would argue that players are not completely mercenary. It would be interesting to ask Gayle and Gray if it was money alone that decided them on not coming to us. A player who we attempt to sign should be thinking I will get better if I sign for Bristol City. We don't know what they thought of us do we? The agents might tell us in confidence. We could use this as a starting point for changing our profile. I have noticed the increase in attendance. Gary Johnson dreamt of getting 20,000. I'd like to see the whole of the Lansdown filled. Seems silly to spend all that money and then not find a way to fill it. The image I want is of a top level Premiership team playing top 6 level football, that should not be fantasy-land for the 6th largest city in england. Not a bad philosophy. Many on here are saying it's only relatively recently that our Club has been well run. Why is that? It's best business practice to follow best practice elsewhere. I'm not convinced that even now we are aiming for Premiership standards throughout our operation. Similiarly our FA should be hiring the very finest coaches to train our future managers. Dave Brailsford made British cycling the best in the world. He had lottery funding but there was more to it than that. Mr Lansdown has spent a lot of money but in return he owns practically everything. How hard has he tried to follow the example of those Clubs who want to be the best or near the best in English football. He has said he wants Premiership football repeatedly. Where are the indicators??

Edited by southvillekiddy

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1 hour ago, chinapig said:

If you think LJ is not well known and well thought of in the English game I think you are being a touch parochial.

I'm intrigued though as to what you mean by managers with an international reputation. I assume you don't believe we could persuade the likes of Allegri or Benitez, who are currently available, so can you suggest some names?

I'm being the opposite I''m being critical of the standard of management we have appointed in the past and seem content to appoint now (We've had AD and Terry Cooper, working on a shoe-string, that qualify as great managers IMO). Do you mean that Lee is well known nationally for all his successes and I haven't noticed? He's a young up and coming manager so far and no more.

Benitez is exactly the manager we should be going after, he has all the talent, temperament and contacts to bring us success. If we don't believe that, we are again in "That's not for the likes of us" scenario. Small thinking and genuinely stuck in the mud parochialism.

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1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

Yes he did.

You lamented wasted millions on second rate players, hoping they became good. Those I listed were all players that were proven quality at some point before we signed them, not 'punts' that we hoped would develop.

Morris was with us for a year and played 4 times, hardly a regular. With the David James fiasco we have Bristol City at it's worst. SL interferes and thinks it is a good idea to sign James, Coppell doesn't but it's a fait accompli, so Coppell leaves and with him a genuine chance of promotion with a manager who has achieved it. James spends his time bollocking our defence for mistakes that he has made.

It's true they were quality in their day but well, well past it. Like buying a knackered out roller.

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32 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

I'm being the opposite I''m being critical of the standard of management we have appointed in the past and seem content to appoint now (We've had AD and Terry Cooper, working on a shoe-string, that qualify as great managers IMO). Do you mean that Lee is well known nationally for all his successes and I haven't noticed? He's a young up and coming manager so far and no more.

Benitez is exactly the manager we should be going after, he has all the talent, temperament and contacts to bring us success. If we don't believe that, we are again in "That's not for the likes of us" scenario. Small thinking and genuinely stuck in the mud parochialism.

Over any given period the great majority of coaches don't win anything. That's just arithmetic. Their reputation among their peers is based on their assessment of their knowledge and skills. Unlike many fans, they do not base their opinion on celebrity, as evidenced by the fact that they voted Chris Wilder manager of the year, not Guardiola, not Klopp, not anyone with an international reputation.

Alan Dicks did not work on a shoestring by the way as the financial inequalities of the modern game didn't exist. In the First Division we had the third highest wage bill - hence the financial crash that almost destroyed the club and led to Terry Cooper working on a shoestring in Division 4.

Coming up to date, Graham Potter was much admired before he had even coached in England and is now at a Premier League club. I assume you would not have appointed him as Swansea did on the grounds that he was not famous. Would you dismiss Danny Cowley's reputation among his fellow pros on the same basis?

As to Benitez, even if there were no financial restraints and we offered the £12m a year he has reportedly been offered to manage in China, any suggestion that he would take up the offer betrays a lack of understanding of his modus operandi and is moving into the realms of fantasy, as I'm sure you must know.

If you can suggest any coaches of international repute to which the above does not apply then do so. Note that Max Allegri is going to take a year off though, so he is out of the picture for now.

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5 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

No guarantee of success or more guarantee of success? SL wants to stick with a Coach who is presently relatively unknown in England and totally unknown internationally. Whether we like it or not success in the Premiership currently goes with having a foreign manager who attracts quality foreign players. By the way, I'm as disappointed as anyone that our FA cannot train British managers to be world beaters.

When are Bristol City FC going to stop being safe and parochial? Setting aside the big money signings such as Fammy and Jonathan, we have wasted millions in signing scores and scores of 3rd rate players seemingly with the hope that they magically become quality players. Surely appointing one top-flight manager would cost less?

Steve McLaren international reputation manager  even had what one would say is the biggest job in football was QPR manager until fairly recently! 

Burnley got promoted with Sean dyche who wasn’t internationally known! 

A “Top class” manager is not guaranteed to get promotion 

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5 minutes ago, hail gus cesaer said:

Steve McLaren international reputation manager  even had what one would say is the biggest job in football was QPR manager until fairly recently! 

Burnley got promoted with Sean dyche who wasn’t internationally known! 

A “Top class” manager is not guaranteed to get promotion 

Does help though

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2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Over any given period the great majority of coaches don't win anything. That's just arithmetic. Their reputation among their peers is based on their assessment of their knowledge and skills. Unlike many fans, they do not base their opinion on celebrity, as evidenced by the fact that they voted Chris Wilder manager of the year, not Guardiola, not Klopp, not anyone with an international reputation.

Alan Dicks did not work on a shoestring by the way as the financial inequalities of the modern game didn't exist. In the First Division we had the third highest wage bill - hence the financial crash that almost destroyed the club and led to Terry Cooper working on a shoestring in Division 4.

Coming up to date, Graham Potter was much admired before he had even coached in England and is now at a Premier League club. I assume you would not have appointed him as Swansea did on the grounds that he was not famous. Would you dismiss Danny Cowley's reputation among his fellow pros on the same basis?

As to Benitez, even if there were no financial restraints and we offered the £12m a year he has reportedly been offered to manage in China, any suggestion that he would take up the offer betrays a lack of understanding of his modus operandi and is moving into the realms of fantasy, as I'm sure you must know.

If you can suggest any coaches of international repute to which the above does not apply then do so. Note that Max Allegri is going to take a year off though, so he is out of the picture for now.

Is that what we should aim fo,r a manager with skills and knowledge of the highest levels

I was referring to Cooper working on a shoe string.

Please tell me what is Benitez' modus operandi?  What is he getting at Newcastle? Can't see a man of his character going to China just for the money. How do you know he wouldn't relish the challenge and potential of Bristol City. How much did we pay for Jonathan and Fammy.. A few £10 millions-worth a year from Rafa would give us success.

It would be a matter of whether Lansdown could sell Benitez the future of the Club and managership at Bristol City. If he was given what he wanted he would give it serious consideration. Why ever not? He knows the Championship and brought Newcastle back up. "Oh ye of little imagination"  It's really up to SL. What certain is that something BOLD has to come from SL.

Are you happy for us to potter along developing players and then selling them to Premiership Clubs?

Edited by southvillekiddy

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3 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

I would argue that players are not completely mercenary. It would be interesting to ask Gayle and Gray if it was money alone that decided them on not coming to us. A player who we attempt to sign should be thinking I will get better if I sign for Bristol City. We don't know what they thought of us do we? The agents might tell us in confidence. We could use this as a starting point for changing our profile. I have noticed the increase in attendance. Gary Johnson dreamt of getting 20,000. I'd like to see the whole of the Lansdown filled. Seems silly to spend all that money and then not find a way to fill it. The image I want is of a top level Premiership team playing top 6 level football, that should not be fantasy-land for the 6th largest city in england. Not a bad philosophy. Many on here are saying it's only relatively recently that our Club has been well run. Why is that? It's best business practice to follow best practice elsewhere. I'm not convinced that even now we are aiming for Premiership standards throughout our operation. Similiarly our FA should be hiring the very finest coaches to train our future managers. Dave Brailsford made British cycling the best in the world. He had lottery funding but there was more to it than that. Mr Lansdown has spent a lot of money but in return he owns practically everything. How hard has he tried to follow the example of those Clubs who want to be the best or near the best in English football. He has said he wants Premiership football repeatedly. Where are the indicators??

You have gone off at various tangents but I will honestly attempt to reply.

Cycling is a difficult comparison to football. Football does use marginal gains. The FA do apply a scientific approach and Brailsfords role as performance director is mirrored within the FA by various technical director. The FA do employ people at the top of their professions in these roles. Brailsford did not train coaches, he instructed them and monitored what they did. With respect its difficult to understand what point you are making. The FA's role is to prepare Coaches/Managers via support the coaches form their own philosophies and ideas, and continue this development in the game. The vey best learn on the job. The EPL by its nature cuts down on that opportunity for British coaches to gain the same experience coaches get in other leagues.

The image I want is of a top level Premiership team playing top 6 level football, that should not be fantasy-land for the 6th largest city in england. Not a bad philosophy. ... Again with all respect that is not a philosophy. Where are the values? Where are the principles? In regards to foreign models club philosophies are very frequently twinned with a football playing philosophy highlighting playing, training, development, coaching and recruitment principles. 

He has said he wants Premiership football repeatedly. Where are the indicators?? Even the most mean spirited have to concede huge steps have been taken and Bristol City are nearer not further away from Premiership than they were, Bristol City have consolidated their position in the league. Premiership top six? I believe in no limits thinking but that thinking is tempered by pragmatic thinking. BCFC are making steps forward. The rational next linear step of promotion is no longer a ridiculous notion … Mr Landowns BCFC now does not languish in the division below, the club has been modernised, it obviously is not what you want it to be, and in parts not what I would like to see but progressing it is, and the overwhelming majority of fans are clearly approving of the direction Mr Lansdown is pursuing.

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26 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You have gone off at various tangents but I will honestly attempt to reply.

Cycling is a difficult comparison to football. Football does use marginal gains. The FA do apply a scientific approach and Brailsfords role as performance director is mirrored within the FA by various technical director. The FA do employ people at the top of their professions in these roles. Brailsford did not train coaches, he instructed them and monitored what they did. With respect its difficult to understand what point you are making. The FA's role is to prepare Coaches/Managers via support the coaches form their own philosophies and ideas, and continue this development in the game. The vey best learn on the job. The EPL by its nature cuts down on that opportunity for British coaches to gain the same experience coaches get in other leagues.

The image I want is of a top level Premiership team playing top 6 level football, that should not be fantasy-land for the 6th largest city in england. Not a bad philosophy. ... Again with all respect that is not a philosophy. Where are the values? Where are the principles? In regards to foreign models club philosophies are very frequently twinned with a football playing philosophy highlighting playing, training, development, coaching and recruitment principles. 

He has said he wants Premiership football repeatedly. Where are the indicators?? Even the most mean spirited have to concede huge steps have been taken and Bristol City are nearer not further away from Premiership than they were, Bristol City have consolidated their position in the league. Premiership top six? I believe in no limits thinking but that thinking is tempered by pragmatic thinking. BCFC are making steps forward. The rational next linear step of promotion is no longer a ridiculous notion … Mr Landowns BCFC now does not languish in the division below, the club has been modernised, it obviously is not what you want it to be, and in parts not what I would like to see but progressing it is, and the overwhelming majority of fans are clearly approving of the direction Mr Lansdown is pursuing.

Fair play to you mate. I use the cycling comparison to express the point that british coaches can make british sportsmen and women the best in the world. It's all down to vision, usually one person's vision, their determination to notice all the multitude of minute improvements that add up to being the best. This what Brailsford oversaw as you say.The same applies to Clive Woodward with England rugby. If Bristol City were to appoint people of this calibre then the success should follow. Why is there such fear and doubt about us doing this. When I expressed concerns to SL at a Q and A sometime ago about the quality of our coaching, he said it was impossible to improve a player beyond the age of 25!  I believe things have improved eg.under GJ we were unable to teach an intelligent man like Ivan Sproule how to cross a ball. I felt we de-skilled players who came to us. It's different now. Our skill levels are so much higher. I'm pleased that we now have nippy, quick-footed and quick-witted players. However I believe we have to step everything up substantially with higher quality of coaches improving higher ability players over the next two seasons, persuading those players to fully buy in to staying at a Club on the brink of the Premiership. A better more experienced coach would attract these higher ability players. Otherwise the pattern we have now of losing improved players to Premiership Clubs will continue. Bristol City will have stopped being a yo-yo League One/Championship Club but no more.

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8 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Is that what we should aim fo,r a manager with skills and knowledge of the highest levels

I was referring to Cooper working on a shoe string.

Apologies, evidently I misread you. Though Dicks of course was the young assistant manager at Coventry when we recruited him so presumably wouldn't pass the international reputation test now.

Please tell me what is Benitez' modus operandi? 

Not being in the top set of managers any more he chooses clubs of a similar profile he thinks he can take to the next level - think Inter, Napoli, Newcastle, though he was not a success at the first two.

What is he getting at Newcastle?

Reported as £6m a year; he is said to have been offered more to sign a new contract but I haven't seen a figure quoted anywhere. However, he found a city and fan base that reminded him culturally of Liverpool and as at Liverpool had a genuine connection with the people. That's why he stuck with them when they were relegated. He was active in community and charitable projects because of that sincere feeling, a great quality of his. At other clubs, even Madrid, which was his club, he was regarded as remote and prickly. Unfortunately, he believed he could change Ashley's ways.

Can't see a man of his character going to China just for the money.

Nor me, I'd be disappointed if he did.

How do you know he wouldn't relish the challenge and potential of Bristol City.

How do you know he would, given his history? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

How much did we pay for Jonathan and Fammy.. A few £10 millions-worth a year from Rafa would give us success.

Leaving aside the usual point about no guarantees (Bielsa didn't get Leeds promoted for instance) the combined fees would at best pay a year's salary. In any event you need to distinguish between capital spending and running costs, it makes a big difference.

It would be a matter of whether Lansdown could sell Benitez the future of the Club and managership at Bristol City. If he was given what he wanted he would give it serious consideration.

Reportedly, Ashley offered a transfer budget of £50m, plus money raised from sales. Benitez wanted £100m. Probably safe to assume he would want the Championship equivalent, but you have chosen to assume FFP doesn't exist and that there is an unrestricted amount of money available so this may be a moot point.

Why ever not? He knows the Championship and brought Newcastle back up. "Oh ye of little imagination"  It's really up to SL. What certain is that something BOLD has to come from SL.

Are you happy for us to potter along developing players and then selling them to Premiership Clubs?

Others have responded to your skewed characterisation of the club's (long overdue) strategy and the substantial progress made. Suffice it to say I have seen enough examples of reckless owners 'living the dream' as you want to do to prefer SL's approach.

Anyway, this has become a circular debate so I should stop there I think.

 

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13 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Fair play to you mate. I use the cycling comparison to express the point that british coaches can make british sportsmen and women the best in the world. It's all down to vision, usually one person's vision, their determination to notice all the multitude of minute improvements that add up to being the best. This what Brailsford oversaw as you say.The same applies to Clive Woodward with England rugby. If Bristol City were to appoint people of this calibre then the success should follow. Why is there such fear and doubt about us doing this. When I expressed concerns to SL at a Q and A sometime ago about the quality of our coaching, he said it was impossible to improve a player beyond the age of 25!  I believe things have improved eg.under GJ we were unable to teach an intelligent man like Ivan Sproule how to cross a ball. I felt we de-skilled players who came to us. It's different now. Our skill levels are so much higher. I'm pleased that we now have nippy, quick-footed and quick-witted players. However I believe we have to step everything up substantially with higher quality of coaches improving higher ability players over the next two seasons, persuading those players to fully buy in to staying at a Club on the brink of the Premiership. A better more experienced coach would attract these higher ability players. Otherwise the pattern we have now of losing improved players to Premiership Clubs will continue. Bristol City will have stopped being a yo-yo League One/Championship Club but no more.

 Again without wanting to sound arrogant or rude there is a unevenness in your post.

You mentioned philosophy but the philosophy of Dave Brailsford was to win. To be the very best. If the same was applied to BCFC the competitors are Liverpool and Man City. The rugby comparison again is also uneven.

When I expressed concerns to SL at a Q and A sometime ago about the quality of our coaching, he said it was impossible to improve a player beyond the age of 25 .. It is not impossible but humans reach their physical peak around that age and the ability to learn decreases (not ends) in football players. There is sense in, If BCFC want to improve players its buy, educate and train them younger. City are attempting to do this. 

Within your posts you make a point about vision. Within football that vision is frequently one Managers then he leaves and another short term vision joins, spends more and the cycle continues with the next vision. That is why I asked what your philosophy and values were. In European football models those values have to be held by more than one individual and are intrinsic to the FC, overseen by the Director of football, the Head coach, coaching teams, players, scouts … It is through the layers of the FC. 

Your use of the word philosophy omits use of principles and values beyond gets some more in, costing lots and have them coached by somebody foreign costing lots as well. You don't paint a picture of how the FC will adhere to FFP, how it will utilise the academy, recruitment, playing identity, structure - Director of football etc.

Another poster makes the point about reckless spending and owners. I would agree, without the above defining picture you advocate being reckless.  

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10 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 Again without wanting to sound arrogant or rude there is a unevenness in your post.

You mentioned philosophy but the philosophy of Dave Brailsford was to win. To be the very best. If the same was applied to BCFC the competitors are Liverpool and Man City. The rugby comparison again is also uneven.

When I expressed concerns to SL at a Q and A sometime ago about the quality of our coaching, he said it was impossible to improve a player beyond the age of 25 .. It is not impossible but humans reach their physical peak around that age and the ability to learn decreases (not ends) in football players. There is sense in, If BCFC want to improve players its buy, educate and train them younger. City are attempting to do this. 

Within your posts you make a point about vision. Within football that vision is frequently one Managers then he leaves and another short term vision joins, spends more and the cycle continues with the next vision. That is why I asked what your philosophy and values were. In European football models those values have to be held by more than one individual and are intrinsic to the FC, overseen by the Director of football, the Head coach, coaching teams, players, scouts … It is through the layers of the FC. 

Your use of the word philosophy omits use of principles and values beyond gets some more in, costing lots and have them coached by somebody foreign costing lots as well. You don't paint a picture of how the FC will adhere to FFP, how it will utilise the academy, recruitment, playing identity, structure - Director of football etc.

Another poster makes the point about reckless spending and owners. I would agree, without the above defining picture you advocate being reckless.  

I don't know how you imagine I think a Benitez would come to us without his full coaching entourage and the Club adopting tried and tested practices for turning BCFC inside out to make it work at the highest levels in all areas.We all saw the amazing array of Man City staff celebrating after the Cup Final. And don't say that is fantasy for us. Half of what they had on show would be my aim but I'm not the owner of Bristol City.  In my opinion SL is too frightened to lose control in going for such  radical change. Despite everything he may say he is our biggest obstacle to achieving Premiership football

Also I've said many times in this topic SL and Bristol City have wasted millions on 2nd or 3rd rate players instead of using it where it matters and I've explained where I think it should have been spent instead. What the Club have done in this respect is reckless, seemingly spending with the vain hope of things turning out successfully as if by magic.

Where has the impetus for the success of the best two teams in England? If you believe Bristol City could never get near this then you are conspiring to keep us as the most under-achieving Club in English football. Look up lads. Raise your horizons.

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12 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

I don't know how you imagine I think a Benitez would come to us without his full coaching entourage and the Club adopting tried and tested practices for turning BCFC inside out to make it work at the highest levels in all areas.We all saw the amazing array of Man City staff celebrating after the Cup Final. And don't say that is fantasy for us. Half of what they had on show would be my aim but I'm not the owner of Bristol City.  In my opinion SL is too frightened to lose control in going for such  radical change. Despite everything he may say he is our biggest obstacle to achieving Premiership football

Also I've said many times in this topic SL and Bristol City have wasted millions on 2nd or 3rd rate players instead of using it where it matters and I've explained where I think it should have been spent instead. What the Club have done in this respect is reckless, seemingly spending with the vain hope of things turning out successfully as if by magic.

.

I will answer with my own quote.

23 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 Within your posts you make a point about vision. Within football that vision is frequently one Managers then he leaves and another short term vision joins, spends more and the cycle continues with the next vision. That is why I asked what your philosophy and values were. In European football models those values have to be held by more than one individual and are intrinsic to the FC, overseen by the Director of football, the Head coach, coaching teams, players, scouts … It is through the layers of the FC. 

Your use of the word philosophy omits use of principles and values beyond gets some more in, costing lots and have them coached by somebody foreign costing lots as well. You don't paint a picture of how the FC will adhere to FFP, how it will utilise the academy, recruitment, playing identity, structure - Director of football etc.

 

You still have not articulated what it is you feel Bristol City are in your vision. Foreign Manager tick, foreign coaches and further  backroom staff, foreign XI? Local players? Who knows? Academy? You place no value on it, like local players not worth it? Cost? Who knows? FFP? Who knows. And on I can go. 

12 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

 If you believe Bristol City could never get near this then you are conspiring to keep us as the most under-achieving Club in English football. Look up lads. Raise your horizons.

I will end it here with … I know words have power but fans on a forum disagreeing with you don't go that far. Silly!

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On 21/06/2019 at 12:51, Olé said:

Petrol in Greenland costs the equivalent of about 9p a litre. It is the country with perhaps the biggest remaining oil reserves. Oil exploration across the Arctic circle is increasing all the time. 

With all that said, I don't think we should really have to pay over the odds for our annual signing from either Barnsley or Preston.

 

On 22/06/2019 at 18:44, southvillekiddy said:

Good debating with you mate. I'm just concerned over how long this will take. We had an opportunity at Christmas the season before last to really go for it and instead we retreated. As a result three of our best players decided their future wasn't at Bristol City. I fear this pattern of developing good players and then losing them will continue and we will remain a Championship team unless a miracle occurs. We had a miracle with Alan Dicks but it took a hundred years for him to turn up. 

Going back to comparing Bristol City and Man City there are several similiarities. Both formed in 1894 and both pre-eminent in the early 1900s. Both suffered a decline and dropped into the third level of League football. It was surely by emulating the models of the best Club set-ups in Europe that Man City achieved what they now. And they did it by hiring the very best people, not just players but business people, executives, coaches and of course the best Club manager in football? Bristol City have wasted millions on countless substandard players (even if we set aside the millions spent on the marquee striker signings), neglecting to appoint the most important element, the very best managers (with the exception of Dicks).

A miracle imo is being in division 2. This is what is required to get to the premiership. We are an established as a competitive championship club which history cannot dictate future but it is based stability of management., development of academy and generally better success in signings. All clubs are selling clubs just where you are in the pecking order. Loyalty does not generally exist in football like any other professional business and that works both ways. 

Like all pre seasons we await signings. Marquee names (excuse the gasism) but I do believe the structure management youth development gives us a great platform for the continual success we desire. 

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