Jump to content
IGNORED

Safe standing and persistent Standing (Merged)


22A

Recommended Posts

On 19/07/2019 at 13:59, poland_exile said:

sod safe standing, nothing wrong with proper terracing! Was at Union Berlin the other week - now a Bundesliga club - and was brilliant to see three sides of ground completely terraced. Guess what, no-one died, no-one rioted, no-one came away in tears - felt like a beer festival with some football on in the background: brilliant. 

It's so civil of the Germans to let adults have a fag and a beer whilst standing up to watch some football. 

 

1.JPG

Agree. Terracing was never unsafe. As people crowd in fans move to the side or forward for room. What made terracing unsafe was pens and fencing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, South Somerset Red said:

Agree. Terracing was never unsafe. As people crowd in fans move to the side or forward for room. What made terracing unsafe was pens and fencing.

It depends IMO.

At a certain venue in Bristol it'd surely be safe- when rammed in as 60s and 70s grounds often we're I'm not so sure. I mean it's not a problem said Bristol club must deal with! :whistle2:

With modern technology and systems, planning however yeah I think traditional terracing could well be safe- the above pictures and closer to home Brentfotd show this to be the case.

Capacity would have to be capped though- fences and pens clearly played a big part in the issues but so too I believe did a liberal approach to capacity- how well was it controlled and capped?

All that said, I do think the most realistic and feasible option by far is the safe standing. Best chance of success basically.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now there has been a lot of talk about safe standing and persistent standing and installation of barriers. As we know, Wolves are the trailblazers or amongst the trailblazers in the top 2 Divisions.

People may say it has to be done to cover themselves and it's possible there's a bit of that at play, but at the same time...

https://www.wolves.co.uk/news/club/20190723-supporters-reminded-about-persistent-standing/?isNative=true

Picture from Molineux with said same new rail seats, possibly a Europa League qualifier.

EAl1M5TXkAAETFO.jpg

What do we notice about them despite rail seating?

Get the distinct impression "Persistent Standing" will be a dispute waiting to happen this season again- in football generally.

People who think a blind eye can therefore be turned in the event of installation maybe unfortunately surprised therefore- it states in that article that: 

Quote

"The SGSA and Local Authority will be monitoring us closely and particularly our new seating arrangements to ensure our continued compliance with the licensing conditions, therefore we urge all supporters to respect these rules, by occupying their allocated seats and avoiding persistent standing in all areas of the stadium".

Essentially get the impression that clampdowns or attempted clampdowns are on the cards- Local Authorities can vary albeit with national law but SGSA is national. I reckon the Singing Section/s82 should be fine, don't see why not but beyond that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now there has been a lot of talk about safe standing and persistent standing and installation of barriers. As we know, Wolves are the trailblazers or amongst the trailblazers in the top 2 Divisions.

People may say it has to be done to cover themselves but at the same time...

https://www.wolves.co.uk/news/club/20190723-supporters-reminded-about-persistent-standing/?isNative=true

Picture from Molineux with said same new rail seats, possibly a Europa League qualifier.

EAl1M5TXkAAETFO.jpg

What do we notice about them despite rail seating?

Get the distinct impression "Persistent Standing" will be another dispute waiting to happen this season- in football generally.

Looks like Alton Towers !

Do We really need to penn people in to that degree, like cattle to ensure their safety stood watching a football match ?

Crazy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Looks like Alton Towers !

Do We really need to penn people in to that degree, like cattle to ensure their safety stood watching a football match ?

Crazy

Agreed- seems somewhat overdone!

Another example here, albeit not a ground with safe standing areas AFAIK.

https://www.claretandhugh.info/london-stadium-persistent-standing-to-be-reviewed/

Seems rather odd that they should be doing this in tandem with allowing safe standing areas to be installed (but not yet used for football)? Assume the safe standing areas are future proofing etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Admin
1 hour ago, Ciudad Bristol said:

   Wiki suggests our capacity is 27,989 ?

I expect that there are this many seats in the ground, but due to segregation, TV cameras etc etc this number will never actually be on sale

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/07/2019 at 20:48, South Somerset Red said:

Agree. Terracing was never unsafe. As people crowd in fans move to the side or forward for room. What made terracing unsafe was pens and fencing.

I’m not sure when you started watching football, but my recollection of standing in a big crowds is totally different. People who came early didn’t move to the side or forward to make room for others. They usually just stood where they were any late comers had to fit in. The biggest problem was the crowd surging when a goal was scored or something exciting happened. It didn’t matter with low attendances, but with people packed together like sardines, in a big crowd you could easily be moved several feet to the side or forward. The real cause of the problem was clubs allowing far too many people into a space. City’s record attendance is approx 43,000 with the ground footprint no bigger than it is today! That’s frightening 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

UPDATE- though it seems to have so far, slipped out with little publicity or fanfare.

No change basically, except for a new investigation into analysis of solutions to persistent standing. Insufficent evidence currently.

Don't subscribe to The Athletic so it'll be behind a paywall.

EDIT- Believe the below to be the relevant report, but not even looked at it yet.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/836546/Standing_at_Football_final_report.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing I truly hate about 'safe standing' is the insinuation that all other forms of standing are somehow 'unsafe'. Further, it's just another form of bloody seating. 

Nothing wrong with proper standing and proper terraces! And those suspicious of it, maybe check out a match in Germany before making a judgement. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honest question as never been to a match in Germany- though I intend to.

Was largely under the impression that it was safe standing there- is there a mix of terraced grounds vs safe standing ones? Nothing wrong with original terracing though, modern technology could prove that- why's it safe to stand at Brentford in that style but not AG for example?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Honest question as never been to a match in Germany- though I intend to.

Was glassy under the impression that it was safe standing there- is there a mix of terraced grounds vs safe standing ones? Nothing wrong with original terracing though, modern technology could prove that- why's it safe to stand at Brentford in that style but not AG for example?

Yes, a mix - if you're toying with Germany, would really recommend Union Berlin: three sides of old school terracing! Absolutely wonderful atmosphere with people of all ages and genders mixing in an almost beer festival-style atmosphere (yes, you can bring your pint on the terrace as well!). Can't praise the experience highly enough. And despite the widespread booze and sprawling terraces, no-one died, no was injured, there was no rioting, and everyone went home happy. 

We can learn a lot from the Germans!

66251790_10157378027648698_845918187181572096_o.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • SC&T Board Members
53 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

Yes, a mix - if you're toying with Germany, would really recommend Union Berlin: three sides of old school terracing! Absolutely wonderful atmosphere with people of all ages and genders mixing in an almost beer festival-style atmosphere (yes, you can bring your pint on the terrace as well!). Can't praise the experience highly enough. And despite the widespread booze and sprawling terraces, no-one died, no was injured, there was no rioting, and everyone went home happy. 

We can learn a lot from the Germans!

66251790_10157378027648698_845918187181572096_o.jpg

Ah, home from home! 3.6k seats, 18.4k standing. Wunderbar!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Further note on this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49932203

Couple of key segments from the article:

Quote

But evidence will be gathered in stadia outside the top two tiers this season.

The report by CFE research, commissioned for the Department of Culture for Media and Sport, said new evidence could be gathered but it would require "tolerance within existing policy to trial different standing areas".

It suggested that "randomised control trials could demonstrate impact of alternative accommodation".

The Sports Ground Safety Authority will look into how safe standing is implemented at British and European clubs, and how persistent standing is managed elsewhere.

But it understood that would not include carefully managed trials in stadiums where a form of rail seating exists, such as Tottenham and Wolves, as such experiments would be against the law.

The latest development means safe standing will not come into force until at least 2021, but once evidence has been gathered there is likely to be a public consultation, meaning it could be 2022 before safe standing might be introduced.

Instead of the "randomised control trials" suggested in the report, evidence will be gathered at the likes of Celtic, Shrewsbury Town, Wycombe Wanderers and Oxford United, who all offer safe standing alternatives outside the Premier League and Championship in England.

Plus

Quote

The report by CFE research said there was no "robust body of evidence to suggest standing in its current form, either on traditional terracing or modern dual purpose options, is any more or less safe than sitting".

It added: "The risks associated with standing in seated areas are greatest at moments of excitement, which is not mitigated by the all-seater policy.

"However, any change to current policy must be based on robust evidence that such a change would ensure equivalent or improved spectator safety.

"There is significant scope for further research to build this evidence base, requiring tolerance within existing policy to trial different standing areas - alongside monitoring clubs taking different approaches to the management of standing - to provide evidence of impact."

Finally

Quote

"The independent review on standing at football found that more evidence is clearly needed before any change to the current all-seater policy can be properly considered.

"The Sports Grounds Safety Authority will be gathering this evidence over the course of the football season. Their report will be published next year."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, poland_exile said:

The thing I truly hate about 'safe standing' is the insinuation that all other forms of standing are somehow 'unsafe'. Further, it's just another form of bloody seating. 

Nothing wrong with proper standing and proper terraces! And those suspicious of it, maybe check out a match in Germany before making a judgement. 

Can’t imagine anyone’s suspicious of it, we’ve pretty much all stood on normal terraces I’d imagine!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Can’t imagine anyone’s suspicious of it, we’ve pretty much all stood on normal terraces I’d imagine!

not referring to normal fans, rather the decision makers who've got it into their heads that adults can't be trusted to stand up to watch some other blokes playing sport! they'll be getting us to wear seatbelts inside stadiums next :o 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

not referring to normal fans, rather the decision makers who've got it into their heads that adults can't be trusted to stand up to watch some other blokes playing sport! they'll be getting us to wear seatbelts inside stadiums next :o 

Good shout on seatbelts. Safety first!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting story/line from a SAG- depressingly it has as much sense and understanding of football crowds as we've come to expect.

EGRvnyZXYAEjq8T.jpg

The thread in full below.

Not City Related but certainly if one SAG is doing it, makes you wonder how many others are like-minded, and what sort of measures they are 'suggesting' with us, amongst other clubs.

Feels like will be a rolling battle...the standing on the back row thing if we're talking specifics to City.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting story/line from a SAG- depressingly it has as much sense and understanding of football crowds as we've come to expect.

EGRvnyZXYAEjq8T.jpg

 

The thread in full below.

Not City Related but certainly if one SAG is doing it, makes you wonder how many others are like-minded, and what sort of measures they are 'suggesting' with us, amongst other clubs.

I would agree that it’s not City related, but only because the majority of our fans don’t stand up at away games ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Pieman said:

I would agree that it’s not City related, but only because the majority of our fans don’t stand up at away games ? 

Read different things on here!

I get away every so often and tbh in terms of the % I assumed would stand throughout, it really isn't as high as I thought it might be! Fairly small sample size though, I'll admit. One that did surprise me though was Millwall away April 2018- 8th vs 7th, a game that attracts a certain type of atmosphere, it felt pretty decisive in terms of the playoff push- was fairly high in the block, assumed all around me would be stood- wasn't the case!

The wider point though, is that's what good for them maybe good for us- and though it's away fan related, can see OUR SAG taking (or trying to take) stupid measures against those who stand at the back of the Dolman and South Stand eg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎04‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 13:42, RumRed said:

Can’t imagine anyone’s suspicious of it, we’ve pretty much all stood on normal terraces I’d imagine!

Standing terraces are perfectly safe if the number of people that the stand was designed to accommodate had been adhered to at Hillsboro, we wouldn't now be having this discussion, with the way tickets are sold and distributed now I'd wager there would probably never again be an incident like that. a simple remedy would be to just have barriers that are a maximum of 6 rows of people between them.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

I went to spurs yesterday to watch the NFL and in the large kop style stand behind one goal all the rows had rails, we stood all game. Assume the spurs fans could stand for football as well?? 

They could but that would obviously be too dangerous to allow, fine for the NFL though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

I went to spurs yesterday to watch the NFL and in the large kop style stand behind one goal all the rows had rails, we stood all game. Assume the spurs fans could stand for football as well?? 

 

36 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

They could but that would obviously be too dangerous to allow, fine for the NFL though. 

2021 at the earliest and not before.

It maybe in place at eg Tottenham, but that's basically future proofing.

The trials and evidence gathering will be at Celtic, Shrewsbury- places like that. Sure there's a few others but can't remember.

@pillred

Don't you think you are painting history a bit overly positively?

Standing is not unsafe I agree. Safe standing or even some form of terracing what with modern technology.

Still, there were problems for sure- grounds were in a bad state in the main, they had not been properly updated for decades- Bradford 1985 for example showed that safety measures were often inadequate.

You need a balance IMO. Way football was in mid and indeed 1980s, maybe all seater and some strict laws were necessary AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

That time has now passed, as football has changed significantly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...