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Safe standing and persistent Standing (Merged)


22A

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Announced this evening on BBC North West. It's been proposed by Everton that their planned new ground to have rail seats at each end.

Apart from improving the atmosphere, 10,000 extra spectators could then be accommodated.

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2 hours ago, 22A said:

Announced this evening on BBC North West. It's been proposed by Everton that their planned new ground to have rail seats at each end.

Apart from improving the atmosphere, 10,000 extra spectators could then be accommodated.

It’ll take something to improve the atmosphere of Goodison. With Everton supporters stood up now at both ends it truly is one of the loudest grounds I’ve ever been to. 

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1 hour ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

It’ll take something to improve the atmosphere of Goodison. With Everton supporters stood up now at both ends it truly is one of the loudest grounds I’ve ever been to. 

I've only ever been there once, admittedly I was on the side with the (West ham) away fans but wasn't that impressed with their support, but granted they lost that day. 

Just remembered thinking what a dump it was 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They have to remain in a locked seated position until the law changes?

Guess they could be used as standing for rugby, for concerts- but not football as of now.

Rail seats cannot be locked down. Why, indeed, would anyone ever want to lock a seat down and thus cause a possible obstruction in the event of an emergency?!

Some forms of rail seats can locked UP. That's the sort in use at Celtic and the sort that we had on show in Atyeo Block A several years ago (shown below).

Finished-seating cropped.jpg

That sort are still not allowed at grounds in England and Wales covered by the all-seater policy. The very presence of the lock (whether or not it is used) is deemed to make them non-compliant with the requirement for such grounds to provide "seated accommodation only".

However, rail seats that do NOT have locks ARE allowed at such grounds as a means of enhancing safety in areas where fans habitually stand.

It is seats of this latter design that Spurs have fitted and Wolves are currently fitting. In both cases, they feature self-tipping plastic seats ... and NO lock.

This sort of rail seat could now be installed at Ashton Gate, e.g. like this one below;

ARC RAILSEAT 3 FOR NIKKI 6.png

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12 hours ago, Gary Nanes said:

get it done ffs Wolves are having it next season

You are saying that, but what real need is there for the club to do it? There are no benefits to them, bar “safety” if you think standing is a safety issue. I haven’t sat at a city game for at least 15 years and haven’t felt unsafe once. 

The club allow standing in section82, they can’t expand the area as sight lines would be blocked and you can’t shift blocks of season ticket holders from the top rows of stands just to put rail seats in.

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38 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

You are saying that, but what real need is there for the club to do it? There are no benefits to them, bar “safety” if you think standing is a safety issue. I haven’t sat at a city game for at least 15 years and haven’t felt unsafe once. 

The club allow standing in section82, they can’t expand the area as sight lines would be blocked and you can’t shift blocks of season ticket holders from the top rows of stands just to put rail seats in.

The standing section sells out within hours of season tickets going on sale, if you want to POTD and stand you can’t do that at Ashton Gate. There’s potential for so many more to stand and it’d increase the atmosphere.

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28 minutes ago, Gary Nanes said:

 The standing section sells out within hours of season tickets going on sale, if you want to POTD and stand you can’t do that at Ashton Gate. There’s potential for so many more to stand and it’d increase the atmosphere.

UNTIL THE LEGISLATION CHANGES, IT CANNOT BE USED AT FOOTBALL!

In all honesty I do agree with you about the idea, a whole safe stood South Stand- perhaps part of the Atyeo too if we have some home fans in there would also be excellent- it would have great potential to boost the atmosphere.

However until said legislation changes, it is moot, is it not??

Could you point me please to an article with the relevant legislation change?

Now maybe I've misunderstood your point and you are simply suggesting get it in for when the legislation changes- and I hope it is a when, not an if, but no sign yet of it being in place for 2019/20 season. Plus the club would have to do groundwork, surveys, consultation on % who want to stand, want to sit.

Then we have the question- as constituted- would the SAG allow a bigger singing/standing section than what we currently have in the corner?

That said putting it in early would on paper be a good plan yes, because then there could be a nice smooth transition for change in law- but of course the standing/seating aspect of ST Holders has to be factored in as well.

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29 minutes ago, Gary Nanes said:

The standing section sells out within hours of season tickets going on sale, if you want to POTD and stand you can’t do that at Ashton Gate. There’s potential for so many more to stand and it’d increase the atmosphere.

Agree couldn't get a ticket for s82 at the games I went to this season, as a 'habitual' stand-er it is a bit crap.. but suppose that's punishment for not getting a st

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2 minutes ago, Robin-hugh-blind said:

Agree couldn't get a ticket for s82 at the games I went to this season, as a 'habitual' stand-er it is a bit crap.. but suppose that's punishment for not getting a st

If you don’t get one next season just walk into S82 anyway mate they’ve given up checking tickets in there.

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11 hours ago, Gary Nanes said:

The standing section sells out within hours of season tickets going on sale, if you want to POTD and stand you can’t do that at Ashton Gate. There’s potential for so many more to stand and it’d increase the atmosphere.

I understand that, but where are you going to put it? The south stand is fully sold out for season ticket holders so you cant shift them out to put people who want safe standing in.

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53 minutes ago, Red 90 said:

Safe Standing gone up at the Molineux.. Looks really good IMO!

427720669_WolvesSS.thumb.jpg.8c42b3a63f64c2d86f1666c14e56043d.jpg

This will work for Wolves as they have fitted the seats in an entire stand  (The Sir Jack Hayward Stand). I can imagine there would be a bit of a mixed reaction if City tried to do this in (eg) the South Stand. Some leaping for joy and others violently opposed 

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1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

This will work for Wolves as they have fitted the seats in an entire stand  (The Sir Jack Hayward Stand). I can imagine there would be a bit of a mixed reaction if City tried to do this in (eg) the South Stand. Some leaping for joy and others violently opposed 

You're right. Safe standing across the entire South Stand is not viable at present as (a) you would need to displace too many people (b) I'm not convinced there's enough demand to fill the entire stand. 

The only viable areas at present are an extended s82 in the South Stand or the entire Atyeo (debate as to whether you displace the away support or allow them some limited safe standing). 

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5 minutes ago, Pieman said:

Surely wolves would of had to ‘displace’ fans to fit this to the whole stand. If they can do it why can’t we?

As Mr P mentioned, at Wolves they are still officially seats so have displaced nobody. Were they used as standing then they would have an issue but, presently, it's 'as you were' but with rails.

As everyone probably stands anyway, it's much safer IMHO but, without a change in legislation, they can't be used as official 'standing' areas is how I understand it.

It does look good mind.

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sod safe standing, nothing wrong with proper terracing! Was at Union Berlin the other week - now a Bundesliga club - and was brilliant to see three sides of ground completely terraced. Guess what, no-one died, no-one rioted, no-one came away in tears - felt like a beer festival with some football on in the background: brilliant. 

It's so civil of the Germans to let adults have a fag and a beer whilst standing up to watch some football. 

 

1.JPG

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2 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

sod safe standing, nothing wrong with proper terracing! Was at Union Berlin the other week - now a Bundesliga club - and was brilliant to see three sides of ground completely terraced. Guess what, no-one died, no-one rioted, no-one came away in tears - felt like a beer festival with some football on in the background: brilliant. 

It's so civil of the Germans to let adults have a fag and a beer whilst standing up to watch some football. 

 

1.JPG

See now this looks safe but  that is because the the rake/size of the stand doesnt look that bad but to do this with a bigger stand wouldnt be so safe IMO. 

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14 minutes ago, miketh2nd said:

See now this looks safe but  that is because the the rake/size of the stand doesnt look that bad but to do this with a bigger stand wouldnt be so safe IMO. 

thing is, the stadium as a whole holds 23,000, of which 19,000 is terraced. I'm guessing the terrace I have in the photos would hold 5,000. Blinding atmosphere given it was a pre-season as well. The terrace i was on (pictured here below) was equally brill, with loads of German pissheads, normal lads , families, kids, women having a a blast and mingling together. There is just no reason at all why the German model can't be adopted in England other than the greed of the clubs, the general myopia of the FA and the government's intolerance.

The bottom line is that standing is safe, but i think too many parties are happy that football is now a TV show and don't want to change that. Returning football to the fans is a risk that those at the top don't want to take. 

 

 

66671102_10157378028268698_5880872833197801472_o.jpg

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You are all missing the point, they have put rails in front of seats like spurs have done.

This is perfectly within the rules. What you guys would think is safe standing seats arnt within the rules. 

Standing will be allowed, like it is in s82. All clubs need to do is provide seated accommodation (which they have), it is then basically down to local councils / SAGS on how they enforce standing, not many care anymore and are happy to allow it. 

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Until the legislation is changed, the seats will be kept in the position necessary I would suspect. Installing it is fine- whereas using them for football is not. Using them for concerts or rugby though would I believe be deemed aok!

I would also suspect that clubs will come under pressure from SAGs to adhere to this until the legislation changes- Tottenham after all ejected a number for persistent standing just after their new ground opened. Aside from the "Singing Section" and I guess the top rows of stands where a blind eye may well be turned, don't expect anymore substantive change at this time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47915073

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As I put above in this thread, the legal position at present is actually quite clear, if not entirely logical.

As long as a rail seat has no lock, it can be installed now in any all-seater ground. The safety advice is that clubs should consider doing this to enhance safety in any areas of their ground where fans habitually stand. That area cannot, however, be operated as an official standing area. But if the existing standing habits persists, the fans there will be safer.

At Wolves all fans in the South Bank persistently stand, so the rail seats (which are self-tipping and have no lock) are going in to make them safer. The South Bank will remain an area of seated accommodation. But those standing fans in it will now be safer.

To be compliant with the new safety guidelines (published in November 2018), Ashton Gate Limited should be considering installing rail seats (without a lock) in the Section 82 quadrant and in the Atyeo, as fans in both areas habitually stand and are not as safe doing so behind the existing seats as they would be behind a rail seat.

AGL/BCFC could, for instance, install seats like the ones illustrated below:

ARC RAILSEAT 3 FOR NIKKI 6.png

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19 hours ago, poland_exile said:

thing is, the stadium as a whole holds 23,000, of which 19,000 is terraced. I'm guessing the terrace I have in the photos would hold 5,000. Blinding atmosphere given it was a pre-season as well. The terrace i was on (pictured here below) was equally brill, with loads of German pissheads, normal lads , families, kids, women having a a blast and mingling together. There is just no reason at all why the German model can't be adopted in England other than the greed of the clubs, the general myopia of the FA and the government's intolerance.

The bottom line is that standing is safe, but i think too many parties are happy that football is now a TV show and don't want to change that. Returning football to the fans is a risk that those at the top don't want to take. 

 

 

66671102_10157378028268698_5880872833197801472_o.jpg

Thanks for this great insight  ,  I will definitely be planning a trip to Germany for a game .  I agree with some of your points regarding standing although football is alot more family friendly . Social media and the press have a lot bigger presence if things did go wrong but it does seem gradually we will see safe standing . 

It would be interesting to see if the Atyeo was made safe standing (  move the away fans) then given to the s82 and how many tickets  would be sold.  

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