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ChippenhamRed

You’re the ref

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Hi all, taking a summer break from the forum but popping back in to share this.

My son (age 8 ) plays in goal for a local team and today they played a tournament. They used proper FA qualified referees.

Midway through the game, the keeper (my son) hurts his leg in a collision in the penalty area, as the ball goes out for a corner. He goes down injured. The ref either fails to notice the injury or chooses to ignore it, and allows the opposition to take the corner with the goal unattended. I scream from the sidelines that he is injured and he needs to stop the game - to which he shouts back: “I ONLY STOP THE GAME FOR HEAD INJURIES, THAT’S THE RULES OF THE GAME!”

So, my questions

- Is he right, technically?

- Was I justified in wanting to lamp him?!

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If it was a broken leg, would the player then be penalised for just lying on the ground?

If a defender suffers a serious leg injury near his own goal line and just lay there, would he be ignored, or is he now making all opposition forwards on side?

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I thought it was that refs only have to stop the game for head injuries.

However if a player is down hurt and there is a break in play (like a corner being awarded) then that is the ideal time to get treatment as play has already naturally stopped.

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2 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I thought it was that refs only have to stop the game for head injuries.

However if a player is down hurt and there is a break in play (like a corner being awarded) then that is the ideal time to get treatment as play has already naturally stopped.

Yes or a horrendous obvious injury.  He is right to stop the game and we have been frustrated so many times by this over last few seasons especially playing PNE.

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Whether to stop play is at the ref's discretion. There is no hard and fast rule that he can only do so for head injuries.

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4 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I thought it was that refs only have to stop the game for head injuries.

However if a player is down hurt and there is a break in play (like a corner being awarded) then that is the ideal time to get treatment as play has already naturally stopped.

But what if the player down is the goalkeeper? Can he still allow play to continue?

Slightly different point - is he actually allowed to allow a set piece to begin with a keeper still down?

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8 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Hi all, taking a summer break from the forum but popping back in to share this.

My son (age 8 ) plays in goal for a local team and today they played a tournament. They used proper FA qualified referees.

Midway through the game, the keeper (my son) hurts his leg in a collision in the penalty area, as the ball goes out for a corner. He goes down injured. The ref either fails to notice the injury or chooses to ignore it, and allows the opposition to take the corner with the goal unattended. I scream from the sidelines that he is injured and he needs to stop the game - to which he shouts back: “I ONLY STOP THE GAME FOR HEAD INJURIES, THAT’S THE RULES OF THE GAME!”

So, my questions

- Is he right, technically?

- Was I justified in wanting to lamp him?!

I would suggest technically he is probably right but being as it’s an U9’s game, common sense should surely prevail that the keeper be allowed treatment.

But as with most referees & people in a position of authority (for the larger part), common sense is rarely used!!

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1 minute ago, chinapig said:

Whether to stop play is at the ref's discretion. There is no hard and fast rule that he can only do so for head injuries.

But what about restarting play from a set piece such as a corner?

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1 minute ago, Tipps69 said:

I would suggest technically he is probably right but being as it’s an U9’s game, common sense should surely prevail that the keeper be allowed treatment.

But as with most referees & people in a position of authority (for the larger part), common sense is rarely used!!

Ain’t that the truth. At U8 level kids go down all the time and play always stops, head injury or not. They’re just kids at the end of the day!

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1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

But what if the player down is the goalkeeper? Can he still allow play to continue?

Slightly different point - is he actually allowed to allow a set piece to begin with a keeper still down?

I don't know if there's any specifics to do with goalkeepers.

But if your son was down injured and it had been made clear, them (IMO) the ref was wrong to let the corner be taken. Whether the official rules/laws back this up is another matter.

Were I the ref and I had seen it I'd have let there be treatment before the corner.

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Whether to stop play is at the ref's discretion. There is no hard and fast rule that he can only do so for head injuries.

That is correct, but head injuries are the only ones where he has to, or so I believe.

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1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

But what about restarting play from a set piece such as a corner?

Any sensible ref would have allowed the player to have treatment first. Refusing to do so doesn't breach any rules as such but claiming that he was not allowed to stop play was nonsense.

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1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Ain’t that the truth. At U8 level kids go down all the time and play always stops, head injury or not. They’re just kids at the end of the day!

The trouble is, refs tend to play to the book & if it isn’t in the book, then they are stuffed because they don’t know what to do next! Like I said, a severe lack of common sense.

That’s why it’s so refreshing to see one that uses his common sense & a lot of people praise them because it’s unusual to see.

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3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I don't know if there's any specifics to do with goalkeepers.

But if your son was down injured and it had been made clear, them (IMO) the ref was wrong to let the corner be taken. Whether the official rules/laws back this up is another matter.

Were I the ref and I had seen it I'd have let there be treatment before the corner.

That is correct, but head injuries are the only ones where he has to, or so I believe.

I look at it this way - imagine Maenpaa gets clattered making a save. He goes down on the edge of the penalty area. The referee allows the opposition to take the corner with Maenpaa still down and they head the ball into an empty net to score.

We’d be raging surely?!?!

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3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I don't know if there's any specifics to do with goalkeepers.

But if your son was down injured and it had been made clear, them (IMO) the ref was wrong to let the corner be taken. Whether the official rules/laws back this up is another matter.

Were I the ref and I had seen it I'd have let there be treatment before the corner.

That is correct, but head injuries are the only ones where he has to, or so I believe.

Yes, but this ref was claiming the rules didn't allow him to stop play, which is nonsense.

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2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Yes, but this ref was claiming the rules didn't allow him to stop play, which is nonsense.

I’m not sure he was. I think he was saying he only had to stop the game for a head injury, which is a slightly different statement.

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1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I’m not sure he was. I think he was saying he only had to stop the game for a head injury, which is a slightly different statement.

In which case it was a ridiculous use of his discretion and not one a professional referee would make. Not even Mike Dean!

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Referee is wrong because the ball went dead.

If the ball was still in play, sure thing he's right but the ball left the active field of play and so play should be stopped until the player has left the field or regained his position.

...

And if he does only stop the game for head injuries, don't hit him in the face, break his ankle and tell him play has to continue because it's not a head injury.

Edited by TBW
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30 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Hi all, taking a summer break from the forum but popping back in to share this.

My son (age 8 ) plays in goal for a local team and today they played a tournament. They used proper FA qualified referees.

Midway through the game, the keeper (my son) hurts his leg in a collision in the penalty area, as the ball goes out for a corner. He goes down injured. The ref either fails to notice the injury or chooses to ignore it, and allows the opposition to take the corner with the goal unattended. I scream from the sidelines that he is injured and he needs to stop the game - to which he shouts back: “I ONLY STOP THE GAME FOR HEAD INJURIES, THAT’S THE RULES OF THE GAME!”

So, my questions

- Is he right, technically?

- Was I justified in wanting to lamp him?!

Was it an U8s ‘festival’ ie non competitive?

 

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My son plays under 8’s and the technical decision is correct to carry on if the ref didn’t see any foul, you’d of thought he would of stopped the game for a minute just to check he was ok and then carry on. He’s 8 and common sense and a bit of logic would of been the right way to go. 

 

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18 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I look at it this way - imagine Maenpaa gets clattered making a save. He goes down on the edge of the penalty area. The referee allows the opposition to take the corner with Maenpaa still down and they head the ball into an empty net to score.

We’d be raging surely?!?!

Absolutely.

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The ref has made a clanger here.

I took my ref exam about 15 years ago and although they made sure we knew the obvious rules and the niche nit picky ones inside out, it was always about common sense too.

The ref’s job is to facilitate the game in the best way possible. He doesn’t have to stop because of a non-head injury, as others have said.

But especially with the ball already out of play and no advantage gained by your son’s team, the referee has given the other team an advantage by allowing the restart with a clearly injured player on the pitch - which is much worse when it’s your goalkeeper!

A bit of common sense would have avoided any bad feeling, got your son back on his feet and allowed the game to continue.

The referee is meant to be the one person who doesn’t get talked about. Causing that situation to develop like it did didn’t help him do that at all.

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I always thought the rules were if the ball was in play then the ref only has to stop it if it’s a head injury. 

but as you stated in your case, the ball went out of play, so the ref should of attended to the injury before allowing play to restart?

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34 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Was it an U8s ‘festival’ ie non competitive?

 

Yeah it’s a tournament weekend including all age groups from U7 up to U17 (or thereabouts).

At U8 level and below its only ever non-competitive - no semi finals or final, just a group of games and medals for all. It’s great, actually, everyone has a good time.

All the more reason why the referee should apply a bit of common sense and decency!

Edited by ChippenhamRed

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1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Hi all, taking a summer break from the forum but popping back in to share this.

My son (age 8 ) plays in goal for a local team and today they played a tournament. They used proper FA qualified referees.

Midway through the game, the keeper (my son) hurts his leg in a collision in the penalty area, as the ball goes out for a corner. He goes down injured. The ref either fails to notice the injury or chooses to ignore it, and allows the opposition to take the corner with the goal unattended. I scream from the sidelines that he is injured and he needs to stop the game - to which he shouts back: “I ONLY STOP THE GAME FOR HEAD INJURIES, THAT’S THE RULES OF THE GAME!”

So, my questions

- Is he right, technically?

- Was I justified in wanting to lamp him?!

My son is 8 and I ref a lot of games. First of all that ref seems like a utter tosser. The kids are 8 !  

Secondly, the ball has gone out so play stops. He doesn’t decide to stop it for a corner as far as I’m concerned, it has stopped as a fact as the ball has gone out. 

The results don’t even get recorded at 8 so ref needs a talking too

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I for one think it's very good of the ref who did our game against Villa to give up his time in the off season to officiate at a kids tournament...

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My thoughts always were that you can't keep stopping the game every time Johnny gets kicked, but you have to make a quick decision as to how bad the knock is. Experience tells you what is bad and what isn't if you are a referee with time served. 

However a goalkeeper down and not stopping is a bit unusual! Did they score?

Edited by REDOXO

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8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

My son is 8 and I ref a lot of games. First of all that ref seems like a utter tosser. The kids are 8 !  

Secondly, the ball has gone out so play stops. He doesn’t decide to stop it for a corner as far as I’m concerned, it has stopped as a fact as the ball has gone out. 

The results don’t even get recorded at 8 so ref needs a talking too

Agreed Dave. My feeling was it was a nonsense decision at any level, even more so u8s! He was a “proper” ref parachuted in for the day, seems he was completely out of touch with youth football and how it should be played.

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1 minute ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Agreed Dave. My feeling was it was a nonsense decision at any level, even more so u8s! He was a “proper” ref parachuted in for the day, seems he was completely out of touch with youth football and how it should be played.

That must be the reason. I know a few “proper” refs through friends and work. All of them have big egos and love control.

I reffed a few weeks ago and one of the 8 year olds started singing “the referee is rubbish” when I gave a penalty against his team. I didn’t want to but had to ask him to leave the pitch and be subbed.  Felt really bad when he started crying! 

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19 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Yeah it’s a tournament weekend including all age groups from U7 up to U17 (or thereabouts).

At U8 level and below its only ever non-competitive - no semi finals or final, just a group of games and medals for all. It’s great, actually, everyone has a good time.

All the more reason why the referee should apply a bit of common sense and decency!

That’s why I asked. I coach U8s and would fully expect welfare and safety to come before everything. Don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of ‘non competitive’ but once you’ve coached minis or junior sports up to say u11, you completely understand how no overall competition benefits everyone and allows you to focus on what’s important.

Edited by 054123
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9 minutes ago, 054123 said:

That’s why I asked. I coach U8s and would fully expect welfare and safety to come before everything. Don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of ‘non competitive’ but once you’ve coached minis or junior sports up to say u11, you completely understand how no overall competition benefits everyone and allows you to focus on what’s important.

My kid plays in the same ‘league’ as a team managed by Tom Jordan, Joe’s son. 

Obviously results don’t really matter as not recorded but he has them incredibly well drilled and the first thing he talks to them about when they win (they win every game) is what they could have done better. They’ve just won 6-0 and he starts with that.  

He vets kids who apply to join and only let’s in the best.  He has a clipboard and goes through individual stuff with players 

And I have no idea what I think about it!  The kids should be allowed to have fun but he is turning them into amazing players. No weak links in his teams! 

Quite sad how much he loves himself though. His team booed my sons team and he said nothing as well which wound me up 

Edited by RedDave

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18 minutes ago, RedDave said:

My kid plays in the same ‘league’ as a team managed by Tom Jordan, Joe’s son. 

Obviously results don’t really matter as not recorded but he has them incredibly well drilled and the first thing he talks to them about when they win (they win every game) is what they could have done better. They’ve just won 6-0 and he starts with that.  

He vets kids who apply to join and only let’s in the best.  He has a clipboard and goes through individual stuff with players 

And I have no idea what I think about it!  The kids should be allowed to have fun but he is turning them into amazing players. No weak links in his teams! 

Quite sad how much he loves himself though. His team booed my sons team and he said nothing as well which wound me up 

Also not sure how I feel about that.

I help out with an U8s team. As you’d imagine, most of the team want to spend the time up front - and there are definitely players who are better than others.

Despite that, my thinking is that at this age it’s about getting kids involved - we don’t know the best 8 year old will be the best 21 year old and filtering at that age removes the late developers chance.

What we do is rotate the side - if we’re winning, the good attackers go in defence. Everyone plays everywhere, and the best players spend time on the bench.

We played a side with a nature of that described recently - two “coaches” running each side of the pitch and live bollocking players. They might win at u8 with that approach but long term - not sure it’s the best thing

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When i was refereeing I would use my discretion on any injury and would stop the game if i thought it was right, if the ball went for a corner in your case here then really its easy for the ref as the ball is dead.

As for what he said that's rubbish, perhaps he was a bit stressed on something and he just came out with that 

Some players obviously pull a fast one on injuries but not an 8 year old ...I would hope.

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1 hour ago, Robin1988 said:

The ref has made a clanger here.

I took my ref exam about 15 years ago and although they made sure we knew the obvious rules and the niche nit picky ones inside out, it was always about common sense too.

The ref’s job is to facilitate the game in the best way possible. He doesn’t have to stop because of a non-head injury, as others have said.

But especially with the ball already out of play and no advantage gained by your son’s team, the referee has given the other team an advantage by allowing the restart with a clearly injured player on the pitch - which is much worse when it’s your goalkeeper!

A bit of common sense would have avoided any bad feeling, got your son back on his feet and allowed the game to continue.

The referee is meant to be the one person who doesn’t get talked about. Causing that situation to develop like it did didn’t help him do that at all.

Maybe you can answer this one then. In the USA ladies game last night the ball was headed towards goal and the attacker claimed a corner which was denied. When the slo mo was played, the ball very clearly missed the defenders head by about a foot, but the ball went through her swishing ponytail as she jumped. Not likely to be an issue in the mens game, but is it a corner if it touches hair ?

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49 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

My thoughts always were that you can't keep stopping the game every time Johnny gets kicked, but you have to make a quick decision as to how bad the knock is. Experience tells you what is bad and what isn't if you are a referee with time served. 

However a goalkeeper down and not stopping is a bit unusual! Did they score?

No they didn’t score fortunately!

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Dead ball, no reason at all for the ref not to stop the game. Even more so as it's the keeper with a corner about to be taken. That would apply at any level for me.

Zero common sense applied.

 

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7 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Maybe you can answer this one then. In the USA ladies game last night the ball was headed towards goal and the attacker claimed a corner which was denied. When the slo mo was played, the ball very clearly missed the defenders head by about a foot, but the ball went through her swishing ponytail as she jumped. Not likely to be an issue in the mens game, but is it a corner if it touches hair ?

I would say still a corner personally, the player touched the ball. It`s the same as if Nathan Baker touched the ball with his beard IMO.

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36 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Also not sure how I feel about that.

I help out with an U8s team. As you’d imagine, most of the team want to spend the time up front - and there are definitely players who are better than others.

Despite that, my thinking is that at this age it’s about getting kids involved - we don’t know the best 8 year old will be the best 21 year old and filtering at that age removes the late developers chance.

What we do is rotate the side - if we’re winning, the good attackers go in defence. Everyone plays everywhere, and the best players spend time on the bench.

We played a side with a nature of that described recently - two “coaches” running each side of the pitch and live bollocking players. They might win at u8 with that approach but long term - not sure it’s the best thing

At eight years old thinking should be alongside age phased priorities.Priorities like enjoying playing the game and attempting to master the football.

If the two "coaches" had done FA psychology courses or youth modules … They will learn an eight year old can't be given much instruction, virtually no tactical information because eight year olds do not have the intelligence at that age to understand what is being said to them. 

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2 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Maybe you can answer this one then. In the USA ladies game last night the ball was headed towards goal and the attacker claimed a corner which was denied. When the slo mo was played, the ball very clearly missed the defenders head by about a foot, but the ball went through her swishing ponytail as she jumped. Not likely to be an issue in the mens game, but is it a corner if it touches hair ?

Yes. The hair is a part of the body from which the ball can be played.

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4 hours ago, RedDave said:

My kid plays in the same ‘league’ as a team managed by Tom Jordan, Joe’s son. 

Obviously results don’t really matter as not recorded but he has them incredibly well drilled and the first thing he talks to them about when they win (they win every game) is what they could have done better. They’ve just won 6-0 and he starts with that.  

He vets kids who apply to join and only let’s in the best.  He has a clipboard and goes through individual stuff with players 

And I have no idea what I think about it!  The kids should be allowed to have fun but he is turning them into amazing players. No weak links in his teams! 

Quite sad how much he loves himself though. His team booed my sons team and he said nothing as well which wound me up 

Kids know whether they’ve won or lost, all that really matters when they’re 8 is how much you can help them develop and fulfil whatever their potential maybe. Ultimately everyone will find there level and as long as they enjoy it and are happy, then that’s a good base at community level.

Academies and JPL are something entirely different.

In the end any decent parent should be able to tell you that childhood is such a fleeting moment of innocence, that realistically all you can hope for is that they are happy and fulfilled.

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I was a ref.

Kids games were a ******* nightmare and to be avoided at all costs. The kids were ok. It was the bloody parents....

And as for “doing the Rovers” at Hambrook on a Saturday morning... Jesus Christ....

Everyone’s a ref. Until they have to do it....

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Refs always stop the game for keepers injuries. Common sense. Can't cover the position as an outfield player.... 

Don't know the rules but I know the protocol. 

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7 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

The trouble is, refs tend to play to the book & if it isn’t in the book, then they are stuffed because they don’t know what to do next! Like I said, a severe lack of common sense.

That’s why it’s so refreshing to see one that uses his common sense & a lot of people praise them because it’s unusual to see.

The problem is, the higher you go up the ladder, the less a referee is allowed to use common sense. Assessment’s dictate how a referee progresses, not sticking rigidly to the laws of the game loses the referee marks.

In regards to this under 9’s game, the referee was being totally over officious, of course he should have stopped the game, also the opposing coach should have told his player not to take the corner until the keeper was sorted.

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He’s correct in saying by the laws of the game only for head injuries, but if the ball left the field of play then I’d have stopped the corner being taken for the injured, even more so if it’s the defending goalkeeper. 

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I know the general aim of the thread is to discuss the actual law but what a complete *****. He didn’t stop the game for an injured 8 year old? That’s bordering on criminal. How on earth did you not punch him?

Thats just wound me up on a Sunday morning and it’s absolutely nothing to do with me!

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Ok Maybe the ref didn’t see the keeper was injured till the corner had been taken and couldn’t stop play. As you said they were playing to FA rules so he stuck to the rules/laws. Guess ref can’t win tournament playing to FA rules/laws but people want them dropped when something has happened.

Was the keeper on the floor injured or had got back up, so ref was right to play on.

Edited by wayne allisons tongues

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9 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

The problem is, the higher you go up the ladder, the less a referee is allowed to use common sense. Assessment’s dictate how a referee progresses, not sticking rigidly to the laws of the game loses the referee marks.

In regards to this under 9’s game, the referee was being totally over officious, of course he should have stopped the game, also the opposing coach should have told his player not to take the corner until the keeper was sorted.

Oh yeah, I totally agree & that is why so many supporters praise a referee that does show any sign of using common sense.

Too many referees are like robots now & VAR is only going to make things worse! A ball striking a defenders arm in the penalty area is now a penalty! It’s ludicrous! I’m sure the rule used to be it had to be hand to ball to be an offence but now an attacking team player can purposely strike the ball at defenders arm to gain a penalty! Players will be scoring a hat trick of penalties now in games.

VAR will take away any chance of common sense prevailing & in theory take away any need for an actual referee, all you will really need now is someone to confirm VAR’s decisions.

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5 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I know the general aim of the thread is to discuss the actual law but what a complete *****. He didn’t stop the game for an injured 8 year old? That’s bordering on criminal. How on earth did you not punch him?

Thats just wound me up on a Sunday morning and it’s absolutely nothing to do with me!

It wound me up beyond all reason Fordy, don’t worry about that! Not only the fact that he didn’t stop the game, but the fact that he initially ignored my (and other parents) shouts before eventually patronising me with his “rules of the game” bollocks!

I hate the over-competitive parent thing and my son plays for the club he does because the environment is 100% encouragement and nothing else. But this was ridiculous.

But, on a more positive note, this is my first season as a sidelines parent, my son having joined his team and immediately become the number one GK. He’s done brilliantly and I’ve loved watching him. And generally the youth football scene is a very positive environment which is great to see.

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18 hours ago, RedDave said:

My kid plays in the same ‘league’ as a team managed by Tom Jordan, Joe’s son. 

Obviously results don’t really matter as not recorded but he has them incredibly well drilled and the first thing he talks to them about when they win (they win every game) is what they could have done better. They’ve just won 6-0 and he starts with that.  

He vets kids who apply to join and only let’s in the best.  He has a clipboard and goes through individual stuff with players 

And I have no idea what I think about it!  The kids should be allowed to have fun but he is turning them into amazing players. No weak links in his teams! 

Quite sad how much he loves himself though. His team booed my sons team and he said nothing as well which wound me up 

I took a little time to answer this one but there are elements there which should not be judged too harshly. Setting challenges to players and asking players what they could do better is pretty standard coaching practice. I do not like the word vetting but sympathetically vetting kids again can be good practice, if there is a standard bringing in players below the expectation can harm the development of both existing and new players. 

I would take a dim view of opposing players booing an opposing team. Your son is a U8/U9. Managers and coaches as well as the referee can report poor behaviour to the relevant FA/league, it is not something to condone or encourage. 

Edited by Cowshed

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4 hours ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

Ok Maybe the ref didn’t see the keeper was injured till the corner had been taken and couldn’t stop play. As you said they were playing to FA rules so he stuck to the rules/laws. Guess ref can’t win tournament playing to FA rules/laws but people want them dropped when something has happened.

Was the keeper on the floor injured or had got back up, so ref was right to play on.

The keeper (my son) was injured making a save and finished up off the pitch to the side of the goal standing, but holding his leg and very obviously not ready to resume play. The goal was therefore unattended. Before the corner was taken I was shouting at him to stop the game but he ignored me and allowed play to continue. His comment to me was after the corner had been taken.

All it needed was someone with half an ounce of common sense to make sure he was OK, allow him to retake his position and then resume play. Ref was a nob!

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19 hours ago, RedDave said:

My son is 8 and I ref a lot of games. First of all that ref seems like a utter tosser. The kids are 8 !  

Secondly, the ball has gone out so play stops. He doesn’t decide to stop it for a corner as far as I’m concerned, it has stopped as a fact as the ball has gone out. 

The results don’t even get recorded at 8 so ref needs a talking too

Same situation as me , coach and ref of a kids team .

Terrible terrible decision- ref should be ashamed of himself . Also coach of other team should have said something . 

 

 

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