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Coming out as homosexual in the Championship


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I don't really understand why Gay sportsman feel the need to come out, any more than any other  Gay Lesbian Bi, or whatever. 

What good will it serve in the harmony in the club dressing rooms? 

Of course the clubs will make all the right noises, in support, but they have a real problem on their hands, the real problem is the team, and how the team react to this, we all know that the team is a hyper  macho environment and this will not sit well within the group, no amount of sooth saying and embracing it will convince me there will not be a problem. Then we have the fans, and despite all the positives on here expressing how tolerant we are, fact is we are not, not in the game of football . I give you Brighton, I give you an ex City player  who was berated at Ashton Gate for being a 'paedo', I give you the ex Rover manager and his 'like' for dogs...I could go on with Robbie Fowler, but perhaps I have made my point.

So who is kidding who if we as a  football supporting  group think we can handle this, we can't .

Personally I can, I am a straight guy, but way back in the 70's I was exposed to the Gay community in Bournemouth, and tbh they were good company and their clubs were a lot better than the 'straight' clubs that were  full of pissed up youth who just wanted to fight. Just like any Saturday in any football ground, I shudder to think what they will chant.

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5 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

That’s a more eloquently put version of what I was trying to say at the start of this thread. 

I don’t see the benefit of the way he’s going about it. Just come out and say it, if indeed he really feels the need too. 

 

Whilst I don't know I am reminded of the story of Paul Merson who "came out" as an alcoholic.  The newspaper had all the story on him and more so he agreed to a full interview in return for sympathetic treatment and leaving out certain bits that I'd heard about through working with someone whose father was mates with the landlord of the pub they frequented. I'm not hinting at anything major but it went beyond alcoholism into areas that other footballers are often found doing these days; that was all left out from the story.

This approach makes me think that a newspaper has sufficient evidence to out this player as being gay and so he has spiked their guns by starting a public process of revealing his sexuality to a now sympathetic audience.  If the paper publishes now they will be slaughtered for it; they know that so won't.

Before anyone leaps in with both feet, as seems standard on this thread, I am talking about how the papers operate and not making any kind of judgement about either being an alcoholic or being gay and am not saying that they are equivalent.

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46 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I think the whole point is , nobody actually cares

As a straight man, I don't particularly care.

I disagree that nobody cares, though, because there is a growing group of people that do care - and that's LGBTQ+ people.

What I care about is ensuring that anyone involved in football, or even in life, feels safe in their ability to live their life as they choose. While no one is going to throw their sexuality or gender around, the announcement of a gay person playing professional football at a high level will do wonders for those that personally struggle with their involvement in football and their self-identity.

THIS is what it's all about. In a perfect world, no one would give a shit, and people could come out, declare themselves trans/non-binary and it'd be nothing more than a paragraph on their Wikipedia page. That perfect world doesn't exist - and being able to reach this point, someone is going to need to take the brave step and demonstrate that it is possible to be out and involved in football without abuse.

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28 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

So the famous "poofs' club" story is made up?

I've no doubt Clough used such terms though from what I was told the issue wasn't that Justin frequented such establishments, rather they were few and far between around Nottingham which on more than one occasion saw him travel distance to his old friends and haunts. Turning up for training 'not suitably attired' from a late night on the tiles was what incurred Clough's wrath.

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Given the struggles that forum posters have  with deciding the best formation, team selection, whether we need a striker, whether we should sell Famara for £10m etc. etc. it is very brave of OTIB to take on the issues around a player coming out and the wider issues of homosexuality.

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37 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

I don't really understand why Gay sportsman feel the need to come out, any more than any other  Gay Lesbian Bi, or whatever. 

What good will it serve in the harmony in the club dressing rooms? 

Of course the clubs will make all the right noises, in support, but they have a real problem on their hands, the real problem is the team, and how the team react to this, we all know that the team is a hyper  macho environment and this will not sit well within the group, no amount of sooth saying and embracing it will convince me there will not be a problem. Then we have the fans, and despite all the positives on here expressing how tolerant we are, fact is we are not, not in the game of football . I give you Brighton, I give you an ex City player  who was berated at Ashton Gate for being a 'paedo', I give you the ex Rover manager and his 'like' for dogs...I could go on with Robbie Fowler, but perhaps I have made my point.

So who is kidding who if we as a  football supporting  group think we can handle this, we can't .

All of that was said about Black players back in the 70s/80s.

The opening line of your post is answered by the rest of your post.  Gay sportsmen/women need to come out so that it becomes normal.  Once people stop feeling like they have to hide it, it becomes normal and soon enough will be completely unremarkable.

I remember when Stephen Gately of Boyzone came out and it was headline news.  Nowadays it is completely unremarkable if a pop star is gay - it'd probably be reported but it wouldn't be big news.

The same will happen with football.  The first few will gain headlines and news reports and soon after people will not even notice.

Of course there will always be those that shout abuse from the stands, those people are not going to go away any time soon - we still see and hear racial abuse sometimes.  But the problem there isn't that the player decided to come out, the problem is with the Neanderthal in the stands.  Banning those fools is the way to deal with it.

And harmony in the dressing room is a non-issue.  If any players have a problem with their teammates sexuality then those players should **** off and find another job.

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31 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

As a straight man, I don't particularly care.

I disagree that nobody cares, though, because there is a growing group of people that do care - and that's LGBTQ+ people.

What I care about is ensuring that anyone involved in football, or even in life, feels safe in their ability to live their life as they choose. While no one is going to throw their sexuality or gender around, the announcement of a gay person playing professional football at a high level will do wonders for those that personally struggle with their involvement in football and their self-identity.

THIS is what it's all about. In a perfect world, no one would give a shit, and people could come out, declare themselves trans/non-binary and it'd be nothing more than a paragraph on their Wikipedia page. That perfect world doesn't exist - and being able to reach this point, someone is going to need to take the brave step and demonstrate that it is possible to be out and involved in football without abuse.

Exactly - Leo Sayer's page points out that he suffers from irritable bowel syndrome. No one gives a shit

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5 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I think pretty much everyone starts homophobic. 

If you encounter through your life decent people who just happen to be gay then you become increasingly less so as time goes on.

I remember this subject coming up in school. One particular annoyingly curious and interested in the subject kid (always wanted to know the ins and outs of everything type) decided to pursue the question during the summer holidays. He went off to church for a series of discussions about human nature with his priest.

Next term the annoying little p r * ck was even worse, he became a real pain in the arse.  

 

 

(sorry, just joking. inappropriate, I know!) 

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4 hours ago, Riaz said:

Not sure of your point

I was simply using a question implying that some parents have the same prejudices as some players do. It would be odd if prejudice was solely just held within football teams.. 

2 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Obviously I don’t know who’s gay and who’s straight. That doesn’t mean that none of them are gay..!

I did not say there are no gay coaches. I made a point about hiding their sexuality and being open..

3 hours ago, Badger08 said:

In which case, if that is the case @Cowshed I apologise. 

 

It is ok. I have taken over Eddie Hitlers naughty chair but a mere question proves a point. People instantly jump to a negative because we know that people do have preconceived ideas and at times repugnant ones.

3 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

"the parents", by that you mean "some parents" and those parents should be ignored as the bigoted fools that they are.

 

You did not disagree with the scenario and the reality of what some people can be like. 

4 hours ago, RedDave said:

Coaches don’t introduce themselves by announcing their name and their sexual preference.  The fact that you seem to be the only person who knows what on Earth you are talking about says a lot. 

Within football at all levels we know a lot about each other. People constantly talk about each other. Parents certainly tell me what other Managers/Coaches are like and how they behave. I frequently find myself having to bite my lip as people make all sorts of criticisms of others. Some of these criticisms can be deeply unpleasant. Coaches and I have been one can be the subject of ire and complaint for doing nothing beyond what the FA recommend we do. Its human and we have to equip ourselves for it … It really is part of what can be expected.   

I made a post earlier in the thread about why an individual may hide their sexuality in a squad setting. There is a Red Dave liking that post. The reasons why an individual may want to conceal his sexuality amount to the same as a coach. Peoples failure to accept difference. Red Dave appears here not to like what amounts to the same 

There are hardly any gay people right through football as players, coaches, managers who are open about their sexuality at all.  I would argue that is a form of self preservation. 

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8 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

I didn’t say that though, did I..? 

No, nobody should shout abuse at anyone. There are different levels of offence and impact meant by different comments- I’m sure you’ll agree..?

 

 

It depends. In your honest opinion, is shouting homophobic abuse at a gay person less offensive than shouting racial abuse at a black/Chinese person etc...

If so what is this based on?

Different levels of abuse to me is calling someone an idiot as opposed a ***** for example. Whereas in my opinion homophobic abuse is no less offensive than racial and I would expected both to be punished equally.

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1 hour ago, formerly known as ivan said:

It depends. In your honest opinion, is shouting homophobic abuse at a gay person less offensive than shouting racial abuse at a black/Chinese person etc...

If so what is this based on?

Different levels of abuse to me is calling someone an idiot as opposed a ***** for example. Whereas in my opinion homophobic abuse is no less offensive than racial and I would expected both to be punished equally.

I agree to an extent. But there is also a big difference, in the harm intended, in using a generic homophobic/racist/sexist term (not that it’s then ok) than there is is directly, specifically and aggressively abusing an individual based on any of those criteria - or many others for that matter. 

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8 hours ago, Cowshed said:

What do you think parents would make of a gay man coaching kids?

It doesn't happen. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Cowshed said:

What do you think parents would make of a gay man coaching kids?

It doesn't happen. 

 

 

I’m not sure what parents would make of it. I have not asked any. I can tell however, what YOU think of a gay man coaching kids and to be frank I am appalled at the not so veiled insinuation of sexuality and sexual attraction between coach and children. 

As a gay man I take most banter in good faith but I take massive offence at your comment and I request a written apology and or a banning order on your profile. Mods, can you take some action against this individual?

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1 minute ago, gl1 said:

 

I’m not sure what parents would make of it. I have not asked any. I can tell however, what YOU think of a gay man coaching kids and to be frank I am appalled at the not so veiled insinuation of sexuality and sexual attraction between coach and children. 

As a gay man I take most banter in good faith but I take massive offence at your comment and I request a written apology and or a banning order on your profile. Mods, can you take some action against this individual?

I will not be apologising. 

I have not made any such insinuation. If you read my posts you will see I made reference to FA safeguarding guidelines. Those guidelines are there to protect coaches of differing sexualities as well as the children. We have guidelines for good reason. We have welfare officers for good reason. 

You have jumped to a conclusion. You think I hold that opinion because there ARE people out there who do. I could take massive offence at YOUR accusation. However I will not. All I have highlighted is that these views are prevalent in society - This thread confirms that. 

Why do you think so few people identify themselves as gay within football as a whole? 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I will not be apologising. 

I have not made any such insinuation. If you read my posts you will see I made reference to FA safeguarding guidelines. Those guidelines are there to protect coaches of differing sexualities as well as the children. We have guidelines for good reason. We have welfare officers for good reason. 

You have jumped to a conclusion. You think I hold that opinion because there ARE people out there who do. I could take massive offence at YOUR accusation. However I will not. All I have highlighted is that these views are prevalent in society - This thread confirms that. 

Why do you think so few people identify themselves as gay within football as a whole? 

 

 

No, you made reference to what parents would think, not FA guidelines. If you had meant that, you would of said so, and not parents. Often it is the implication of what is said or in this case, not said of what parents would think about a gay coach. If you thought the parents wouldn’t give 2 hoots there would be no need to have made that statement. The mere fact of making that statement infers they would have a problem, and if what you are saying about the FA is true they would never be in a position to find out what it feels like therefore making your whole post redundant. 

I took offence of the simmering undercurrent of your first line, and it is that that I took, and still take offence over

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8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I will not be apologising. 

I have not made any such insinuation. If you read my posts you will see I made reference to FA safeguarding guidelines. Those guidelines are there to protect coaches of differing sexualities as well as the children. We have guidelines for good reason. We have welfare officers for good reason. 

You have jumped to a conclusion. You think I hold that opinion because there ARE people out there who do. I could take massive offence at YOUR accusation. However I will not. All I have highlighted is that these views are prevalent in society - This thread confirms that. 

Why do you think so few people identify themselves as gay within football as a whole? 

 

 

Ok, I am an official FA Welfare Officer.  Please explain to me what you are saying in the context of my role as a welfare officer.

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12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I will not be apologising. 

I have not made any such insinuation. If you read my posts you will see I made reference to FA safeguarding guidelines. Those guidelines are there to protect coaches of differing sexualities as well as the children. We have guidelines for good reason. We have welfare officers for good reason. 

You have jumped to a conclusion. You think I hold that opinion because there ARE people out there who do. I could take massive offence at YOUR accusation. However I will not. All I have highlighted is that these views are prevalent in society - This thread confirms that. 

Why do you think so few people identify themselves as gay within football as a whole? 

 

 

 

Well done on trying to bring a bit of critical thinking to the debate btw.

I find the combination of mushy thinking with the usual strident table-thumping self-righteousness very wearing.

Sometimes you can feel like Jordan Peterson facing a whole panel of Cathy Newmans.

 

1jcADP4VATtBi6VIVOVVyXA-709x359.png

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1 minute ago, gl1 said:

No, you made reference to what parents would think, not FA guidelines. If you had meant that, you would of said so, and not parents. Often it is the implication of what is said or in this case, not said of what parents would think about a gay coach. If you thought the parents wouldn’t give 2 hoots there would be no need to have made that statement. The mere fact of making that statement infers they would have a problem, and if what you are saying about the FA is true they would never be in a position to find out what it feels like therefore making your whole post redundant. 

I took offence of the simmering undercurrent of your first line, and it is that that I took, and still take offence over

Unfortunately there are parents that do give two hoots . They do not conduct themselves well, applaud the opposition, accept their child being given feedback or  rested (being dropped). There are people who are homophobic, and these people do have kids who play football. It is my view that keeping sexuality quiet is a defence mechanism against that type of person. A gay coach could have more to fear than I do because there are people who do hold these jaundiced views.

There was no simmering undercurrent to my post because It mirrored another post that stated players too are prejudiced. Bias and prejudice is not only within pro football. I see it in the odd parent in differing forms.

15 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Ok, I am an official FA Welfare Officer.  Please explain to me what you are saying in the context of my role as a welfare officer.

That you are necessary and so are guidelines. You and the guidelines are there to protect player, coach and club. The world is not as we would want it to be. 

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55 minutes ago, gl1 said:

 

I’m not sure what parents would make of it. I have not asked any. I can tell however, what YOU think of a gay man coaching kids and to be frank I am appalled at the not so veiled insinuation of sexuality and sexual attraction between coach and children. 

As a gay man I take most banter in good faith but I take massive offence at your comment and I request a written apology and or a banning order on your profile. Mods, can you take some action against this individual?

I was inclined to agree with you but looking back through the thread I think what @cowshed is actually trying to say is that trying to say that there are not openly gay coaches because the environment (possible parental reaction) is not right yet. I don't think cowshed is actually saying there shouldn't be gay coaches or that they would be a risk to players/youngsters. Although the wording chosen is not really clear enough.

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1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

Unfortunately there are parents that do give two hoots . They do not conduct themselves well, applaud the opposition, accept their child being given feedback or  rested (being dropped). There are people who are homophobic, and these people do have kids who play football. It is my view that keeping sexuality quiet is a defence mechanism against that type of person. A gay coach could have more to fear than I do because there are people who do hold these jaundiced views.

There was no simmering undercurrent to my post because It mirrored another post that stated players too are prejudiced. Bias and prejudice is not only within pro football. I see it in the odd parent in differing forms.

That you are necessary and so are guidelines. You and the guidelines are there to protect player, coach and club. The world is not as we would want it to be. 

So you think my role is to encourage young players who are gay to hide their sexual orientation in order to avoid being persecuted by bigots?  I don’t remember that from the training...

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20 hours ago, WhistleHappy said:

It'll be a good day when nobody need worry about any consequences of revealing their sexuality in public life, when no one bats an eyelid and everyone can be free to be who or what they are or choose to be without fear of ridicule. I think the sooner the better that day comes it must be horrible living in fear of being 'exposed' and I'm sure infact when it happens and others 'come out' as well the 'news' will be so short lived quickly becoming 'yesterdays' chip paper... as the realisation hits that nobody really gives a shit, the huge relief of a weight lifted from their shoulders will amaze them, what was all those years spent hiding, lying and in denial all about? FFS nobody cares afterall.. freedom at last.

The impact after the short lived initial few gasps, comments end reactions will quickly subside to nothing … football will quickly 'get over, and, get on with it' 

Who remembers the great late WBA player who shocked the nation on his England International debut when he came out  revealed himself, openly telling everyone he was a black man (ffs! everyone gasped, if it wasnt pointed out no one would have noticed.. blimey! )  it didn't quite happen like that of course, but it wasn't long before Cyril Regis and black players became common place and who the f *** even notices nowadays … it'll quite rightly be the same in no time for gay players too, who gives a monkeys?

Just do it, get on with it, and it'll barely cause a ripple...  (but please, dont go on about it forever and a day, bringing up the subject at every opportunity, unfortunately that's what a significant number of black people seem to want to do at the drop of a hat, literally pointing out and drawing attention to 'differences' while society is rightly trying to agree that we're all human beings living and breathing the same air and occupying the same space as everyone else) 

It'd be a sad world if everyone was exactly the same, diversity in all walks of life makes life interesting and worth living.. 

Football and society will be all the better for it...   and good on you for living YOUR life! 

Racist. Reported.

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3 hours ago, gl1 said:

 

I’m not sure what parents would make of it. I have not asked any. I can tell however, what YOU think of a gay man coaching kids and to be frank I am appalled at the not so veiled insinuation of sexuality and sexual attraction between coach and children. 

As a gay man I take most banter in good faith but I take massive offence at your comment and I request a written apology and or a banning order on your profile. Mods, can you take some action against this individual?

Dude, christ, the guy ISN'T insinuating anything. He's saying there are parents out there that sadly would put 2 + 2 together and come up with 5. Some people are just scumbags. Sadly, it's the world we live in. Slowly but surely, we're making views better, whether it's race, sexual preference, climate change, sexual harassment (#metoo movement) etc but calling for someone to be banned straight away, because you've taken it the wrong way is a bit extreme. Cowshed is giving an opinion or scenario, which has mustered up some debate/points etc. He's certainly not, from what I can tell, being homophobic or obscene. Let's not turn this into a witch hunt, purely because someone has tried talking about a scenario, which I don't believe is a veiled undercurrent or whatever the term was. 

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2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

So you think my role is to encourage young players who are gay to hide their sexual orientation in order to avoid being persecuted by bigots?  

The welfare role is there to help the club uphold its responsibilities e.g. safeguarding. 

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Well done on trying to bring a bit of critical thinking to the debate btw.

I find the combination of mushy thinking with the usual strident table-thumping self-righteousness very wearing.

Sometimes you can feel like Jordan Peterson facing a whole panel of Cathy Newmans.

 

1jcADP4VATtBi6VIVOVVyXA-709x359.png

I find Jordan Peterson to be one of the most fascinating people on the planet.

I could have replied to your point about survival traits v difference, it is neurological and hard wired into us as a form of self defence … That one would be wearing.  I find the combination of mushy thinking with the usual strident table-thumping self-righteousness … There is also an anger cycle to it, people are instantly triggered.  

Critical thinking can cause offense. A football forum is perhaps not the best platform to apply it. 

 

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1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

The welfare role is there to help the club uphold its responsibilities e.g. safeguarding. 

I find Jordan Peterson to be one of the most fascinating people on the planet.

I could have replied to your point about survival traits v difference, it is neurological and hard wired into us as a form of self defence … That one would be wearing.  I find the combination of mushy thinking with the usual strident table-thumping self-righteousness … There is also an anger cycle to it, people are instantly triggered.  

Critical thinking can cause offense. A football forum is perhaps not the best platform to apply it. 

 

One must try.

People were not this thick twenty years ago; the prevalence of electronic devices has destroyed both people's attention spans and their thought processes.  They bark received opinion and regard it as their own thoughts that they are expressing.  Search engines are not only now replacing memory but also the cognitive centres of the brain.  Their phones are providing their opinions.

It's terrifying.  Human achievement is speeding downhill at a similar rate to the cheese chasers on Cooper's Hill.

Idicoracy is not an amusing film; it is a prophecy.

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4 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

One must try.

People were not this thick twenty years ago; the prevalence of electronic devices has destroyed both people's attention spans and their thought processes.  They bark received opinion and regard it as their own thoughts that they are expressing.  Search engines are not only now replacing memory but also the cognitive centres of the brain.  Their phones are providing their opinions.

It's terrifying.  Human achievement is speeding downhill at a similar rate to the cheese chasers on Cooper's Hill.

Idicoracy is not an amusing film; it is a prophecy.

 

12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The welfare role is there to help the club uphold its responsibilities e.g. safeguarding. 

I find Jordan Peterson to be one of the most fascinating people on the planet.

I could have replied to your point about survival traits v difference, it is neurological and hard wired into us as a form of self defence … That one would be wearing.  I find the combination of mushy thinking with the usual strident table-thumping self-righteousness … There is also an anger cycle to it, people are instantly triggered.  

Critical thinking can cause offense. A football forum is perhaps not the best platform to apply it. 

 

Well done condescenders. You are both so clever...or is it patronising? 

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