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Coming out as homosexual in the Championship


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5 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Surely that then can apply to absolutely anything.

"I'm not going to mix with people with green eyes because I have blue eyes"

"I'm not going to mix with left handed people"

"I'm not going to mix with people who's height is different to mine".

 

I didn't have to learn not to be mistrustful of people with green eyes, and that's a trait you can actually see when looking at someone's face, whereas their sexuality would need to be told to you or some other indication 

Those would be natural variations within a small band or tribe so it wouldn't make evolutionary sense to be distrustful of them.

I would say possible exception for height because that can be a tribal charcateristic and was actually a feature of the Rwandan genocide; the Hutu agressors were generally shorter than their Tutsi victims and their height was used as a metaphor - cut them down to size, chop their legs off - which did actually happen amongst many other horrendous things.

 

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44 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

They really don't.  Homophobia is learned, kids don't start out hating/disliking/mistrusting gay people.

100% this, no child is born homophobic, racist or religious. In the same way a baby is not born talking, these are all learnt behaviours.

If a baby saw a person rise off their feet and start flying around the room they would think nothing of it, other than being intrigued or amused.

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35 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Absolute bollocks imo. Homophobia is an irrational prejudice. No one is born prejudiced. 

I don't know mind, picked my little nephew up from school other week (he's in his very first class) and all the kids laughed and went yuck when, at collection time, one of the kids parents turned up and it was 2 blokes holding hands. This is 4/5 years olds too.

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Just now, Undy English said:

I don't know mind, picked my little nephew up from school other week (he's in his very first class) and all the kids laughed and went yuck when, at collection time, one of the kids parents turned up and it was 2 blokes holding hands. This is 4/5 years olds too.

Yep. It's obvious if you actually observe behaviour rather than exhibit your own lazy prejudice of thought.

There is an inborn wariness of difference because it is a survival trait.

That people don't like it does not make it not exist.

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13 minutes ago, Undy English said:

I don't know mind, picked my little nephew up from school other week (he's in his very first class) and all the kids laughed and went yuck when, at collection time, one of the kids parents turned up and it was 2 blokes holding hands. This is 4/5 years olds too.

Children pick up in EVERYTHING from the moment they are born. 4/5 years is a hell of a long time for children to soak up information and behaviour. They weren't born with it. They have learn that behaviour. It my not be parents, it could be from other children, TV anything. But you certainly aren't born with prejudices. Everything in humans is taught. It really is that simple. What you're saying is that homophobia is an instinct!! Do you know how stupid that sounds? 

Babies are born with 13 instincts and 2 natural fears. I'm telling you now, fear of homosexuals isn't one of them. 

Edited by Badger08
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1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

You can be brought up to be homophobic but you certainly don’t start that way.

Homophobia is a learned behaviour - if you’re exposed to it at a young age it’s bound to influence you.

Does anyone think that (certainly towards gay males) there is a pecking order of prejudice based upon how different a person is to the usual male profile ?

By that, I mean males who fit the "regular" male type, save for sexual orientation are more likely to be accepted rather than historically called camp males, who whether by nature or nuture, often act rather differently ?

Gareth Thomas, a great rugby player and Nigel Owens arguably the worlds best rugby referee came out. Both are "proper" in even the most unenlightened company.

I certainly believe that may be a factor in gay sportswomen being accepted by all but a mindless section of society, and the reason so many have come out and got on with their lives and careers.

For that reason, I believe that gay footballers, who are lets face it admirable, hard working athletes who look and act exactly the same as their hetero counterparts should, if they feel so inclined be encouraged to come out and should be supported by the club, its fans, and if needed the authorities from abuse, or otherwise undue attention, whether that be a thick bastard gobbing off from the perceived safety of a stand or internet forum. or a pressure group seeking to enlist the player.

You would have to be a particularly sad bastard to stop admiring a person because you learned they preferred men to women, more so, when there is absolutely no chance it will affect that bastard one iota.

 

Edited by Loon plage
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Full credit to the person considering this, I would imagine their life will never be the same again, for good and bad reasons.

If I was the gay footballer, instead of doing this solo, I would try to contact other gay players and arrange for a group to come out together.

Part of me fears for the individual; despite all the positive notes on this thread, we all know that there are a lot of wicked people out there who will troll and abuse the man for years.

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14 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Full credit to the person considering this, I would imagine their life will never be the same again, for good and bad reasons.

If I was the gay footballer, instead of doing this solo, I would try to contact other gay players and arrange for a group to come out together.

Part of me fears for the individual; despite all the positive notes on this thread, we all know that there are a lot of wicked people out there who will troll and abuse the man for years.

Yes, it is a very selfless act.

I would parallel it to the fight that Jean-Marc Bosman undertook to gain freedom of contract for footballers which made a lot of subsequent footballers a lot of money but for him was just more struggle.

Edit to lift out the final line of the article which I had highlighted.

As of 2015, Bosman was unemployed and relying on handouts from FifPro.[6]

Quote

 

Jean-Marc Bosman (French: [ʒɑ̃ maʁk bɔsmɑ̃]; born 30 October 1964) is a Belgian former professional footballer,[1] whose judicial challenge of the football transfer rules led to the Bosman ruling in 1995. This landmark judgement completely changed the way footballers are employed, allowing professional players in the European Union (except for Malta where the illegal parameter system at the end of contract is still legal) to move freely to another club at the end of their contract with their present team.[2]

Prior to the landmark trial, Bosman played for Belgian first division club Standard de Liège[3] and RFC Liège and won 20 caps for Belgium at youth level. While the trial was ongoing Bosman played briefly in the French lower leagues, and on the Indian Ocean island of Réunion.

Some of his money was lost due to a bad investment in a special T-shirt line. Bosman hoped that the players who benefited from the Bosman ruling would support him by buying one of his "Who's the Boz" T-shirts. He sold only one, to the son of his lawyer. In order to pay his taxes, he was forced to sell his second house and his Porsche Carrera.[4]

In April 2013 Bosman was given a prison sentence suspended for one year following an assault on both his girlfriend and her daughter allegedly over his then girlfriend's refusal to give him an alcoholic drink in 2011.[5]

As of 2015, Bosman was unemployed and relying on handouts from FifPro.[6]

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marc_Bosman

Edited by Eddie Hitler
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5 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Does anyone think that (certainly towards gay males) there is a pecking order of prejudice based upon how different a person is to the usual male profile ?

By that, I mean males who fit the "regular" male type, save for sexual orientation are more likely to be accepted rather than historically called camp males, who whether by nature or nuture, often act rather differently ?

Gareth Thomas, a great rugby player and Nigel Owens arguably the worlds best rugby referee came out. Both are "proper" in even the most unenlightened company.

I certainly believe that may be a factor in gay sportswomen being accepted by all but a mindless section of society, and the reason so many have come out and got on with their lives and careers.

For that reason, I believe that gay footballers, who are lets face it admirable, hard working athletes who look and act exactly the same as their hetero counterparts should, if they feel so inclined be encouraged to come out and should be supported by the club, its fans, and if needed the authorities from abuse, or otherwise undue attention, whether that be a thick bastard gobbing off from the perceived safety of a stand or internet forum. or a pressure group seeking to enlist the player.

You would have to be a particularly sad bastard to stop admiring a person because you learned they preferred men to women, more so, when there is absolutely no chance it will affect that bastard one iota.

 

Yes. If you consider you have two players of equal ability, tactically, technically, physically matched and one is gay your pecking order within the psychological/social element? The gay player being different is very very likely to be at a disadvantage. That social element is a consideration all the time within football and team sport.

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1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

 

I disagree as we are genetically coded to be distrustful of difference; though this only becomes apparent when we attain an age at which we are no longer dependent and our survival is in our own hands.

Not specifically homosexuality but any difference.

Though I don't however see how you can prove it either way.

It's quite easy to prove that it is a learned behaviour.

Take some kids that were brought up in non-homophobic households and show them a video of men/women, women/women and men/men couples.  Nothing overtly sexual of course, just normal couples doing normal things like holding hands or going shopping together.  Then ask those kids what they thought of the video.  I am pretty sure they will not be saying "ewwwww those men held hands, ewwww!"

Then take some kids from homophobic households and repeat.  I am pretty sure they will be bothered by the homosexual couples.

Both reactions (pro and anti) are learned behaviours based on how those kids have been raised. 

There probably is a genetic component to humans that makes us fear different people, but it is a tiny part of us that is easily overridden as long as we are brought up correctly and/or taught to ignore it.

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47 minutes ago, Undy English said:

I don't know mind, picked my little nephew up from school other week (he's in his very first class) and all the kids laughed and went yuck when, at collection time, one of the kids parents turned up and it was 2 blokes holding hands. This is 4/5 years olds too.

So plenty of time to have taken on board negative behavioural stereotypes then. 

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1 minute ago, BS2 Red said:

It's quite easy to prove that it is a learned behaviour.

Take some kids that were brought up in non-homophobic households and show them a video of men/women, women/women and men/men couples.  Nothing overtly sexual of course, just normal couples doing normal things like holding hands or going shopping together.  Then ask those kids what they thought of the video.  I am pretty sure they will not be saying "ewwwww those men held hands, ewwww!"

Then take some kids from homophobic households and repeat.  I am pretty sure they will be bothered by the homosexual couples.

Both reactions (pro and anti) are learned behaviours based on how those kids have been raised. 

There probably is a genetic component to humans that makes us fear different people, but it is a tiny part of us that is easily overridden as long as we are brought up correctly and/or taught to ignore it.

I'm sure that there will be the differences that you say in those tests and absolutely I am talking about a genetic component.

Which I agree can be over-ridden in time though I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a tiny part of us as these are basic survival traits in the same way that pretty much everybody's initial reaction to a snake is going to be "whoa" rather than trying to pick it up and cuddle it.  As the people who picked them up and cuddled them died out.

When I say you can't prove it ether way this is because what represents inherent nature, which I refer to as being genetic, has long been a facisnation of philosophy.

Famously David Hume (my highlight):

Quote

Central to grasping Hume's general philosophical system is the so-called “problem of induction”, and exactly how we are able to make inductive inferences (reasoning from the observed behavior of objects to their behavior when unobserved). He noted that humans tend to believe that things behave in a regular manner, and that patterns in the behavior of objects will persist into the future and throughout the unobserved present (an idea sometimes called the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature). Hume argued forcefully that such a belief cannot be justified, other than by the very sort of reasoning that is under question (induction), which would be circular reasoning. Hume's solution to this problem was to argue that it is natural instinct, rather than reason, that explains our ability to make inductive inferences, and many have seen this as a major contribution to Epistemology and the theory of knowledge.

https://www.philosophybasics.com/philosophers_hume.html 

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14 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Sadly, Justin Fashanu was subject to psychological demons but if you are referring to Clough and Forest his downfall and eventual exile was largely of his own making (I know as I've heard from a few who were there.) He made the mistake of thinking himself 'special', superior, more talented than the hugely successful rabble Clough had transformed into world beaters. Not for him the daily grind of graft, graft and more graft. That's why he was suspended from training and rather than take an internal look at why he was being treated as he was he chose to take the very public route of forcing Forest to allow him to train with them. That he was stupid enough to cajole the press to turn up to capture his 'triumph' over Clough not for one moment realising Clough and Forest were the story, not him, his humiliation when turning up to find the sign on the training ground gates was complete. That wasn't bullying,  had nothing to do with his sexuality and everything to do with who he wrongly perceived himself to be. Tragic end to outstanding talent.

I don't think Clough emerges from the story with much credit. I can't see a manager has any business confronting a player about his sexuality. 

Still that was then and this is now. Let's hope society has moved on.

I realise that there is more to Fashanu's story than his unasked for outing. 

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24 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. If you consider you have two players of equal ability, tactically, technically, physically matched and one is gay your pecking order within the psychological/social element? The gay player being different is very very likely to be at a disadvantage. That social element is a consideration all the time within football and team sport.

OK but doesn't seem to be the case in womens sport whether individual or team so far as I can see so maybe lessons to be learned from them.

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14 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Young males with too much testosterone tend to reject homosexuals... think thats fairly natural.

Not saying its right... but seems to happen

What do you think parents would make of a gay man coaching kids?

It doesn't happen. 

Just now, Loon plage said:

OK but doesn't seem to be the case in womens sport whether individual or team so far as I can see so maybe lessons to be learned from them.

 What was your answer to then earlier question?  . If you answer was the non gay player, we as humans picks familiarity, we gravitate together … This happens in Women's where football historically comes from a different place v the male game. Football was used as a tool where women could display their sexuality - Being gay means you fit in and you are not an outsider. Bristol had lesbian players in teams decades ago because they were formed outside of norms - Easton Cowgirls are a socio political sporting club. 

 

Edited by Cowshed
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9 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Young males with too much testosterone tend to reject homosexuals... think thats fairly natural.

Not saying its right... but seems to happen

Partly, yes - but I think it’s more about what you are used too. 

I’ll admit that I used to be fairly ignorant and possibly show prejudice to gay people, simply because it was different and I hadn’t been “exposed” to it before. 

Since working where I do know, where there are a high percentage of gay people working, it’s an every day normality and I don’t give it a second thought. 

I’m sure it’s the same for lots of people, in lots of ways. Until you are used to seeing something, anything different can appear to be a bit odd. Then you learn to realise that it’s not odd. It’s just different from you and what you are used too. 

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1 hour ago, Undy English said:

I don't know mind, picked my little nephew up from school other week (he's in his very first class) and all the kids laughed and went yuck when, at collection time, one of the kids parents turned up and it was 2 blokes holding hands. This is 4/5 years olds too.

Glad my daughters went to a different school than that then.

Two kids at their old school had gay parents and no one made the slightest fuss about it.

 

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54 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Children pick up in EVERYTHING from the moment they are born. 4/5 years is a hell of a long time for children to soak up information and behaviour. They weren't born with it. They have learn that behaviour. It my not be parents, it could be from other children, TV anything. But you certainly aren't born with prejudices. Everything in humans is taught. It really is that simple. What you're saying is that homophobia is an instinct!! Do you know how stupid that sounds? 

Babies are born with 13 instincts and 2 natural fears. I'm telling you now, fear of homosexuals isn't one of them. 

No need to have a go pal, just making an observation based on what someone posted earlier. I'm no psychologist or behaviorist so have no idea what kids should/shouldn't be saying or doing at 4 yrs old. 

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5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

What do you think parents would make of a gay man coaching kids?

It doesn't happen. 

 

Why the **** would I care if my son was coached by a gay man?

With attitudes like that, it is no wonder that the idea of a gay footballer is still news. 

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8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

What do you think parents would make of a gay man coaching kids?

It doesn't happen. 

 

Of course it happens..! 

You know for a fact that every youth coach is straight..?

The laws of probability suggest you’d be wrong. The chances are you would know & you certainly shouldn’t care..! 

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13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

What do you think parents would make of a gay man coaching kids?

It doesn't happen. 

 

A lot of kids in this country will have been coached by a gay man

Kids in this country will have had a gay teacher
Kids in this country will have had a gay doctor deliver them into the world
Kids in this country will have had a gay carer wash and bathe them
Kids in this country will have had...

It DOES happen - as a gay friend has told me before - 'we're EVERYWHERE and not going ANYWHERE and won't CHANGE'

The problem is with those who can't accept this basic reality 
 

Edited by underhanded
typo
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11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I can't see a manager has any business confronting a player about his sexuality. 

From what I was told I don't believe this applied in Clough's case. What he did take exception to was timing and dress code, including for training, which I'm told Justin had difficulty in adopting. Nothing to do with sexuality and if Lloyd and Burns were obliged to don blazer and tie (which they hated but realised the rewards such team compromise brought,) then why not Justin?

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