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downendcity

What Would You Want?

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The results of an EFL supporter survey shows that nearly two-thirds of fans want VAR & goalie technology.

In view of the issues raised by Derby & Villa's stadium "sales" , Wednesday's questionable financial situation with no accounts submitted and ffp apparently in a chaotic state, which is the more important to City fans:

1. The introduction of VAR & goalie technology, or

2. Ffp rules made airtight, properly administered and applied and any club breaching the rules and limits being properly punished, including substantial points deductions no matter how big the club?

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I like goal line tech, not bothered about VAR (although I think it should continue to be trialed in non competitive environments, or those with less importance until it reaches a point of being an excellent addition) and #2 needs to be done properly anyway.

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5 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I don't want VAR yet. 

Safe standing, subsidised travel and a ticket price cap my important three.

That's why you're supporter of the year. Three fantastic suggestions. It would be so costly to implement in the lower leagues where most grounds don't have a screen or the capacity to hold the required infrastructure. 

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Goal line technology yes, VAR no.

VAR has not ended controversy; in fact in many cases it has created it.  For me the benefits of VAR do not yet outweigh the considerable drawbacks of not truly being able to celebrate a goal for fear of it later being ruled out, and the painfully slow process which ruins what used to be great moments of excitement.

Look at it another way; imagine if VAR had been used to check for offside when Korey scored against United; even if the goal had still stood (which of course it would have done), it would have completely ruined that unbelievable moment.

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I don’t want VAR at all but certainly not in its present form. Other sports have introduced  technology very successfully to aid officials, notably cricket and tennis where it is only used by exception with a strict limit upon the number of times it can be invoked. It’s use now enhances the “theatre” of the sport because the crowd can see and hear the deliberations. It’s quick, efficient and indisputable.

The use of VAR presently differs from this in every way. It’s slow, tedious, overused, inconsistent and contentious. Until these issues are overcome it should not be allowed anywhere near our game. 

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10 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

I don’t want VAR at all but certainly not in its present form. Other sports have introduced  technology very successfully to aid officials, notably cricket and tennis where it is only used by exception with a strict limit upon the number of times it can be invoked. It’s use now enhances the “theatre” of the sport because the crowd can see and hear the deliberations. It’s quick, efficient and indisputable.

The use of VAR presently differs from this in every way. It’s slow, tedious, overused, inconsistent and contentious. Until these issues are overcome it should not be allowed anywhere near our game. 

Do u reckon we should have a litmited number of reviews like cricket where a team only gets to check an incident one each game?

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4 minutes ago, LeeJohnsonsFlatCap said:

Do u reckon we should have a litmited number of reviews like cricket where a team only gets to check an incident one each game?

There certainly should be a limit to the number of times that it can be used. Each team should be able to appeal say once per half. If they use it successfully, they keep it; if they use it unsuccessfully they lose it. 

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14 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

There certainly should be a limit to the number of times that it can be used. Each team should be able to appeal say once per half. If they use it successfully, they keep it, if they use it unsuccessfully they lose it. 

A bit like the review process in both cricket and tennis?

It's a sensible and practical solution, and as such will never come into being!

Having indicated that VAR will address glaring and obvious mistakes, once teams have exhausted their appeals it will leave the system wide open if a glaring and obvious refereeing error is then made. I can't see football's governing bodies letting this happen and moving what is effectively control over the application of VAR, from the current in studio panel to the teams on the pitch.

 

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd want number 2. VAR I am unconvinced about at this time.

Why am I not surprised by your answer?! 

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1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

I don't want VAR yet. 

Safe standing, subsidised travel and a ticket price cap my important three.

My views on VAR are well documented in numerous threads so I'd agree with this. Mind you I want FFP sorted too. 

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Both. Thanks.

VAR makes decisions on the pitch correct.

FFP makes decisions off the pitch correct.

So yeah... both.

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1.  No VAR other than goalline technology

2. Allow players to celebrate goals however they want within reason. Can take shirts off, can jump into the crowd.

3. Any clear dives to be punished retrospectively by a 3 game ban for gross misconduct

4. Away fans ticket prices to be no more expensive than the cheapest adult home ticket

5. Home ticket price deductions to be triggered depending on how many matches you see. I.E

Games 1-6 £35 each

Games 7-12 £30 each

Games 13-18 £23 each

Games 19-23 £15 each

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Goal line technology. Assuming you trust the tech it’s a yes or no answer. Works fine. 

VAR - offside in particular can depend on the split second of a camera frame. Get rid of it. 

If you’re gonna use any tv evidence it cannot be subjective unless the either referee (not a guy in a studio) thinks he had a bad angle or may have made a poor decision and is asked by manager to review (1 per game / half per team) but not offside. Trust and train your officials, get them working with clubs. 

Mic up refs. Embarrass players into stopping!

yellow Card suspensions at 5,10,15 irrespective of gameweek. 

FFP abolished and any clubs requiring PFA to step in to pay wages to be deducted 12 points. Delayed wage payments to players or staff 1 point deduction up to a week. 4pts for a month, etc. 

Clubs failing to pay other clubs same as above. 

If owners want to invest, let them. 

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I think VAR to be scaled back to red cards and only CLEAR and OBVIOUS errors for penalties (ie a player has had their leg taken rather than deemed no contact by the ref, mics would allow communication) rather than anything would be the only scenario I'd consider VAR sticking around.

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Although var might get the right decisions, I think it is largely for the benefit of the TV audience.                        For us attending matches it will be very frustrating especially as we won't see it replayed on the big screen.

 

 

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1 minute ago, hodge said:

I think VAR to be scaled back to red cards and only CLEAR and OBVIOUS errors for penalties (ie a player has had their leg taken rather than deemed no contact by the ref, mics would allow communication) rather than anything would be the only scenario I'd consider VAR sticking around.

This is the key for me, during the WWC we have seen referees taking 2 or 3 minutes to decide if something was an infringement, and this is over and above the time the VAR studio people have taken to decide whether it needs reviewing. How can it be CLEAR and OBVIOUS it takes so long? Likewise, someone's left toe being in advance of a defender for an offside decision, there were two things in the past that would have done away with those sort of decisions, the wording of the offside rule used to be "a player is seeking to gain advantage" by being in an offside position, there is little advantage gained in those circumstances. There was a period where "clear daylight" had to be seen between the two players, it would still be open to interpretation, but at least they would be clearly gaining an advantage.

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13 minutes ago, the red rules said:

Although var might get the right decisions, I think it is largely for the benefit of the TV audience.                        For us attending matches it will be very frustrating especially as we won't see it replayed on the big screen.

 

 

You know the cynic in me (I know it’s hard to imagine) believes that VAR is also championed by, for it will be to the benefit of, betting companies. They will have a whole new series of bets with which to entice punters whilst ensuring that they only pay out when the outcome is unequivocal.

Gambling has become an epidemic in sport and particularly in football. Long gone are the days when the Pools and ‘Spot the Ball’ constituted football related gambling. I can’t see that gambling companies have ever served to benefit the sport (apart from some shirt, cup or ground sponsorship). 

VAR will help them but not us supporters. 

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There’s a good example from today’s England v Australia WC s/f. 

Bairstow given out LBW. Looked plumb but he (stupidly imo) used the team’s one and only review which proved he was out. 

Roy then wrongly given out caught behind. He was never anywhere near it but couldn’t review because Bairstow had used it up. A miscarriage of justice but them’s the rules. 

Introduce VAR into football with similar restrictions and it may just work. 

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VAR can **** off

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I like the idea of VAR, but the implementation is piss-poor, and criticisms aren't being taken on board.

That's not why I'm against the idea of introducing it. My issue with it is that it further distances the rich clubs from the poor ones. Let's say the EFL say that all member clubs need to implement goal line tech and VAR. We could probably afford it, but there's no ******* way that small clubs like the Gas are going to be able to afford that.

The alternative isn't great, either. Plastic fans that only watch the Premier League on TV or online will moan whenever they have to play a Football League team because their shit ground doesn't have VAR.

IMO, goal line tech and VAR should be implemented for all Football League clubs, but the Premier League should have to foot the bill. Cut it from the parachute payments given to relegated teams, and a few million over several years should be more than enough for all Football League clubs to get it set up.

I would focus on goal line tech first, because that is at least reliable.

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VAR is supposedly there to verify correctness of decisions by officials in the BACKGROUND,

officially players are not allowed to call for someone to be carded, so it follows that players demanding the ref reviews decisions should be stopped in the same way!

 

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14 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

I like the idea of VAR, but the implementation is piss-poor, and criticisms aren't being taken on board.

That's not why I'm against the idea of introducing it. My issue with it is that it further distances the rich clubs from the poor ones. Let's say the EFL say that all member clubs need to implement goal line tech and VAR. We could probably afford it, but there's no ******* way that small clubs like the Gas are going to be able to afford that.

The alternative isn't great, either. Plastic fans that only watch the Premier League on TV or online will moan whenever they have to play a Football League team because their shit ground doesn't have VAR.

IMO, goal line tech and VAR should be implemented for all Football League clubs, but the Premier League should have to foot the bill. Cut it from the parachute payments given to relegated teams, and a few million over several years should be more than enough for all Football League clubs to get it set up.

I would focus on goal line tech first, because that is at least reliable.

VAR requires so many cameras at each ground, all of which have to be staffed. The output of every game would need to be reviewed in real time, requiring a veritable army of people to manage both sound, vision and communication technology. Multiply that by as many as 46 times (I appreciate that not all teams play on the same day each weekend) and you’ve likely got a bigger operation than the BBC and Sky combined!

I don’t think it’s feasible to implement VAR across the entire EFL and I don’t think that the professional game should apply too many technologies which create differences to parks football.

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Ultimately decisions made by var will pretty much even themselves over a season. It also destroys that feeling only a goal will give you as a fan. 

FFP literally cost us a play off place last season which ever way you look at it. Be it us sticking to the rules or by others spending what they shouldn't have. This is by far the most important thing that needs to be in place properly in my view

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So far VAR hasn't improved decisions much (at all?) and has interrupted and annoyed.  In current form I want it to go away.

FFP is a nice theory but in practise you can drive a coach and horses through it, and if anything it favours parachute clubs even more.

So neither.  Instead what I'd like to see is:

1) Retrospective ten match bans for diving and simulation to make players stay on their feet and kill off this "contact = foul" horseshit people think is normal.

2) A cap of 23 players aged 18-21 allowed to be registered for a club, and a cap of 16 in each academy age band to stop big clubs warehousing talented youths that never get to play.

3) Mandatory competition at drop balls.

4) A change to the obstruction rule to bring into scope shielding a ball out of play.

I reckon most of those would make the game more watchable all over.

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12 minutes ago, Nibor said:

So far VAR hasn't improved decisions much (at all?) and has interrupted and annoyed.  In current form I want it to go away.

FFP is a nice theory but in practise you can drive a coach and horses through it, and if anything it favours parachute clubs even more.

So neither.  Instead what I'd like to see is:

1) Retrospective ten match bans for diving and simulation to make players stay on their feet and kill off this "contact = foul" horseshit people think is normal.

Agree, if you start with a harsh penalty, I don’t mind if refs get a few wrong, it’ll start self-policing itself, managers won’t want their players banned, and players don’t want to be banned either.

2) A cap of 23 players aged 18-21 allowed to be registered for a club, like the sound of that and a cap of 16 in each academy age band to stop big clubs warehousing talented youths that never get to play. Might need a larger number to allow them to train properly, e.g. 11v11 Training.

3) Mandatory competition at drop balls.

Yep, will stop teams kicking it out....which is only the rule for head injuries.  For head injuries outside the box, allow the trainer on and continue the game, for head injuries in the box, stop play.

4) A change to the obstruction rule to bring into scope shielding a ball out of play.

My dad would vote for this.  From corners, if a attacking players goes short to receive a pass from the taker, a defender should be allowed to follow him into the imaginary 10 yard quadrant.  If no player attends the taker, then defender must stay outside the 10 yard quadrant.  Would hopefully stop the two player obstruction by the corner flag.

I reckon most of those would make the game more watchable all over.

agree

 

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29 minutes ago, Nibor said:

So far VAR hasn't improved decisions much (at all?) and has interrupted and annoyed.  In current form I want it to go away.

FFP is a nice theory but in practise you can drive a coach and horses through it, and if anything it favours parachute clubs even more.

So neither.  Instead what I'd like to see is:

1) Retrospective ten match bans for diving and simulation to make players stay on their feet and kill off this "contact = foul" horseshit people think is normal.

2) A cap of 23 players aged 18-21 allowed to be registered for a club, and a cap of 16 in each academy age band to stop big clubs warehousing talented youths that never get to play.

3) Mandatory competition at drop balls.

4) A change to the obstruction rule to bring into scope shielding a ball out of play.

I reckon most of those would make the game more watchable all over.

3) A "Gerry Gow" challenge? :) 

4) Absolutely agree. Not sure what happened to the obstruction rule, as I can't remember the last time I saw an indirect free kick awarded. When defenders are effectively backing into attackers, and using their arms to push them away, with no attempt to play the ball,  I wonder whether we need worry about obstruction, as it resembles a full on foul. Why are referees so inept when it comes to offences of this nature?

 It's the same with defenders holding and man handling attackers in the penalty area at free kicks and corners - I thought this was being addressed a few seasons ago, when the "clamp down" was announced with a fanfare at the start of the season. After a few weeks, when irate managers moaned about the injustice of their defenders being penalised for something they'd been getting away with for ages, once the fuss dies down normal service was resumed, and continues to this day.

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34 minutes ago, Nibor said:

So far VAR hasn't improved decisions much (at all?) and has interrupted and annoyed.  In current form I want it to go away.

FFP is a nice theory but in practise you can drive a coach and horses through it, and if anything it favours parachute clubs even more.

So neither.  Instead what I'd like to see is:

1) Retrospective ten match bans for diving and simulation to make players stay on their feet and kill off this "contact = foul" horseshit people think is normal.

2) A cap of 23 players aged 18-21 allowed to be registered for a club, and a cap of 16 in each academy age band to stop big clubs warehousing talented youths that never get to play.

3) Mandatory competition at drop balls.

4) A change to the obstruction rule to bring into scope shielding a ball out of play.

I reckon most of those would make the game more watchable all over.

Agreed but I’d also add ...

at a corner kick, the ball must be placed IN the quadrant and

(to prevent time-wasting) once a referee has awarded a free kick, whether for offside, foul play or handball, no player from the offending team must intentionally touch the ball until play resumes. 

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17 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Agreed but I’d also add ...

at a corner kick, the ball must be placed IN the quadrant and

(to prevent time-wasting) once a referee has awarded a free kick, whether for offside, foul play or handball, no player from the offending team must intentionally touch the ball until play resumes. 

Love that last one.  Simple.  But brilliant.

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15 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

VAR requires so many cameras at each ground, all of which have to be staffed. The output of every game would need to be reviewed in real time, requiring a veritable army of people to manage both sound, vision and communication technology. Multiply that by as many as 46 times (I appreciate that not all teams play on the same day each weekend) and you’ve likely got a bigger operation than the BBC and Sky combined!

I don’t think it’s feasible to implement VAR across the entire EFL and I don’t think that the professional game should apply too many technologies which create differences to parks football.

This is pretty much my point.

If the Premier League really wants VAR, then it needs to be tested, and there is simply no better way of testing that then stress testing it in as many football matches as humanely possible. The best way to do this is to whip around the clubs and say "right, everyone cough up a few mil and we'll roll it out across all of England".

It'll cost a ton to maintain, but that's the price of ensuring that English football plays to the same rules.

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52 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

This is pretty much my point.

If the Premier League really wants VAR, then it needs to be tested, and there is simply no better way of testing that then stress testing it in as many football matches as humanely possible. The best way to do this is to whip around the clubs and say "right, everyone cough up a few mil and we'll roll it out across all of England".

It'll cost a ton to maintain, but that's the price of ensuring that English football plays to the same rules.

I think our opinions are very different on this, @EnderMB. You think that its viable for it to be implemented across the entire EFL provided the Premier League teams stump up the cash whereas I don't think it at all viable because of the monumental infrastructure and resource which such a project would demand (for a miniscule ROI).

Put a value on providing an infrastructure in place at Stevenage; they're beating Crewe 5-0 and in the last minute Crewe have a penalty appeal turned down and for the first time in the match a VAR review is called for; the referee's original decision is overturned and a penalty is awarded which Crewe miss. The cost of providing the remote infrastructure (cameras, camera crew, microphones, sound engineers, satellite communications, communications engineers etc) and resource (production crew, referees etc) to this match would be massive. The benefits - zero. The ROI negative.

The need to double the number of suitably qualified and experienced referees would just be the start. Regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem, it would take years to achieve such growth. These things do take time.

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22 hours ago, RedDave said:

1.  No VAR other than goalline technology

2. Allow players to celebrate goals however they want within reason. Can take shirts off, can jump into the crowd.

3. Any clear dives to be punished retrospectively by a 3 game ban for gross misconduct

4. Away fans ticket prices to be no more expensive than the cheapest adult home ticket

5. Home ticket price deductions to be triggered depending on how many matches you see. I.E

Games 1-6 £35 each

Games 7-12 £30 each

Games 13-18 £23 each

Games 19-23 £15 each

Dwight Gayle ear cupping style celebrations to be punishable by firing squad or lethal injection 

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On 11/07/2019 at 12:00, downendcity said:

The results of an EFL supporter survey shows that nearly two-thirds of fans want VAR & goalie technology.

In view of the issues raised by Derby & Villa's stadium "sales" , Wednesday's questionable financial situation with no accounts submitted and ffp apparently in a chaotic state, which is the more important to City fans:

1. The introduction of VAR & goalie technology, or

2. Ffp rules made airtight, properly administered and applied and any club breaching the rules and limits being properly punished, including substantial points deductions no matter how big the club?

2. Football managed for years without technology and was fine (though I have no problem with VAR). The influx of money is relatively new and needs to be sorted out

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46 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Dwight Gayle ear cupping style celebrations to be punishable by firing squad or lethal injection 

FFP dodges much the same. Discount, 2 for 1- save the EFL some work. :thumbsup:

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