Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)

[Coppello]

For what it is worth @ZiderEyed and @Ska Junkie, there is already a 4% levy on all transfers paid by the purchasing club which is used by the PFA. This would've been used to foot the shortfall in wages during the difficult periods faced by Bolton and Bury. It doesn't go the extra step that you stated previously, in terms of being used as a more concrete fund to keep the club afloat but it is a good idea. In reality, if they completed annual proof of funding checks for owners, it would alleviate many of the issues early doors. 

It's a sad day for Bury football club day and really hope they survive. 

[Ska Junkie]

27 minutes ago, Coppello said:

For what it is worth @ZiderEyed and @Ska Junkie, there is already a 4% levy on all transfers paid by the purchasing club which is used by the PFA. This would've been used to foot the shortfall in wages during the difficult periods faced by Bolton and Bury. It doesn't go the extra step that you stated previously, in terms of being used as a more concrete fund to keep the club afloat but it is a good idea. In reality, if they completed annual proof of funding checks for owners, it would alleviate many of the issues early doors. 

It's a sad day for Bury football club day and really hope they survive. 

Thanks Coppello, I wasn't aware of that. 

[wayne allisons tongues]

1 hour ago, Coppello said:

For what it is worth @ZiderEyed and @Ska Junkie, there is already a 4% levy on all transfers paid by the purchasing club which is used by the PFA. This would've been used to foot the shortfall in wages during the difficult periods faced by Bolton and Bury. It doesn't go the extra step that you stated previously, in terms of being used as a more concrete fund to keep the club afloat but it is a good idea. In reality, if they completed annual proof of funding checks for owners, it would alleviate many of the issues early doors. 

It's a sad day for Bury football club day and really hope they survive. 

Only problem is if the league bail out one club, then all clubs are going to expect the same. 

What is to stop all clubs over spending etc,. then demanding help from the league.

The league needs to be more on top of things and instead of letting clubs bend FFP rules should be stopping them and then the overspending higher up will stop. 

Its ok the league saying are Bury viable what about other clubs hugely in debt each year playing in the league and allowed to get more and more in debt.

I can’t understand how Bolton who had 5 players were allowed to start the season, didn’t the league think that maybe a problem.

[Bristol Rob]

I haven't listened to it, so I don't know where abouts in the show the interview is.

But last week, I'm sure Dale said he had the money.

[Taz]

May be a stupid question, but are clubs audited regularly? I mean other than the usual inland revenue etc - do the FA actually do anything themselves? 

If they don't, why is there not a team of people, a bit like ofsted for schools, that go around the country randomly picking clubs and checking that they are being ran properly? These fit and proper tests are all well and good, but look at some of these owners in the past few years, how they get approval is beggars belief.

Start from the bottom and work their way up the leagues. It's predominantly going to be the lower league clubs that are suffering the most, and will need the help the before the Championship/Premiership clubs do - they're more likely to be able to bail themselves out.

Once the auditors have assessed all of the league clubs, they then start randomly picking from the entire football pyramid - one day at Old Trafford, and the next at Huish Park.

If there are anomalies found during the audits, then the club's are given x amount of weeks/months to prove that they are doing something to get back on track. If they can't prove that they can do this, then the club is put up for sale, and offers are looked at by the association/auditors, taking all power out of the current owners hands. It would stop all of this crap at Bury from happening again.

Of course if this happens already, then someone clearly isn't doing a very good job at it!!!

Edited August 23, 2019 by Taz

[chinapig]

59 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I haven't listened to it, so I don't know where abouts in the show the interview is.

But last week, I'm sure Dale said he had the money.

He is still saying he has the money at the same time as asking for donations. From The Guardian:

Bury FC: Speaking to Talksport presenter Jim White, Bury owner Steve Dale has pleaded with supporters and local businesses to club together and pledge £2.7m to help save the club, despite claiming he doesn’t actually need the money and is not looking for charity.

“Fans, anyone out there who will pledge money to come to us … if they come to us and say we’ll put £100 in, £1000 in, if the big players put in £100,000, £500,000 .., whatever it is, we want it pledged to the company,” he said. “We need a pledge of £2.7m plus to save Bury. If the company, Bury Football Club, needs the money and needs to use it, they’ll put up shares and pay 2.5% interest on that money. We don’t need it, let me say that, unless the EFL pull another stroke.

“So what we’re looking to do now is go out there and say to local businesses – we’ve got massive firms in our areas, we’ve got the Boohoo boys, Together Finance, the old card guy Ron Wood, we’re got loads of people within Bury who will maybe look at it and think: ‘well it’s short change out of my pocket, I’ll pledge some money’.

“If we take any money off someone we’ll pay interest on it and we will secure it on shares in the club. Let me make this clear, we’re not looking for charity here, because we don’t need it. But the EFL want it. The EFL have made this ridiculous claim that we need this money, but we’re saying we don’t!”

Meanwhile Kieran Maguire points out that:

Dale has been a director of over 20 companies that are either dissolved, in liquidation or a CVA. There’s a lot of money to be made by becoming involved in companies in distress.

This is the kind of person the EFL allows to own clubs.

Edited August 23, 2019 by chinapig

[Monkeh]

25 minutes ago, chinapig said:

He is still saying he has the money at the same time as asking for donations. From The Guardian:

Bury FC: Speaking to Talksport presenter Jim White, Bury owner Steve Dale has pleaded with supporters and local businesses to club together and pledge £2.7m to help save the club, despite claiming he doesn’t actually need the money and is not looking for charity.

“Fans, anyone out there who will pledge money to come to us … if they come to us and say we’ll put £100 in, £1000 in, if the big players put in £100,000, £500,000 .., whatever it is, we want it pledged to the company,” he said. “We need a pledge of £2.7m plus to save Bury. If the company, Bury Football Club, needs the money and needs to use it, they’ll put up shares and pay 2.5% interest on that money. We don’t need it, let me say that, unless the EFL pull another stroke.

“So what we’re looking to do now is go out there and say to local businesses – we’ve got massive firms in our areas, we’ve got the Boohoo boys, Together Finance, the old card guy Ron Wood, we’re got loads of people within Bury who will maybe look at it and think: ‘well it’s short change out of my pocket, I’ll pledge some money’.

“If we take any money off someone we’ll pay interest on it and we will secure it on shares in the club. Let me make this clear, we’re not looking for charity here, because we don’t need it. But the EFL want it. The EFL have made this ridiculous claim that we need this money, but we’re saying we don’t!”

Meanwhile Kieran Maguire points out that:

Dale has been a director of over 20 companies that are either dissolved, in liquidation or a CVA. There’s a lot of money to be made by becoming involved in companies in distress.

This is the kind of person the EFL allows to own clubs.

I think it’s tricker in bury’s case, I don’t think the efl ever actually approved the sale, 

[WhistleHappy]

approaching the final countdown...

TEN HOURS to save BURY FC

good luck Bury  

 

[Ska Junkie]

6 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said:

approaching the final countdown...

TEN HOURS to save BURY FC

good luck Bury  

 

This is going to the wire by the looks of it, it's gonna be close.

As you say good luck Bury 

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 hours ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

Only problem is if the league bail out one club, then all clubs are going to expect the same. 

What is to stop all clubs over spending etc,. then demanding help from the league.

The league needs to be more on top of things and instead of letting clubs bend FFP rules should be stopping them and then the overspending higher up will stop. 

Its ok the league saying are Bury viable what about other clubs hugely in debt each year playing in the league and allowed to get more and more in debt.

I can’t understand how Bolton who had 5 players were allowed to start the season, didn’t the league think that maybe a problem.

And I think we all know who`d be at the head of the queue with their begging bowl.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

I think it’s tricker in bury’s case, I don’t think the efl ever actually approved the sale, 

I believe he passed the fit and proper test, since any old spiv can do that, but the EFL did not, as you say, approve the sale.

Just another example of laughable governance. Jevans in the meantime is trying to exonerate the EFL and promising a review of governance. My money is on that either being kicked into the long grass or recommending cosmetic changes.

Edited August 23, 2019 by chinapig

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

I believe he passed the fit and proper test, since any old spiv can do that, but the EFL did not, as you say approve the sale.

Just another example of laughable governance. Jevans in the meantime is trying to exonerate the EFL and promising a review of governance. My money is on that either being kicked into the long grass or recommending cosmetic changes.

I have more faith in her than that idiot Harvey.

He oversaw 2 clubs in administration I believe, claimed he didn't know who owned Leeds when he was CEO there- and yet?? 

How he ever got that job will remain one of life's great mysteries.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Still a bit of mis-information out there.

So CVA has been agreed, so the club can continue...but is it the EFL seeking assurances that they can carry on fit the season?

Is Dale saying he doesn’t want to carry on ownership?  So he can’t commit???  But he’s being choosy about who he sells to, because he wants £x back?

[samo II]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

He is still saying he has the money at the same time as asking for donations. From The Guardian:

Bury FC: Speaking to Talksport presenter Jim White, Bury owner Steve Dale has pleaded with supporters and local businesses to club together and pledge £2.7m to help save the club, despite claiming he doesn’t actually need the money and is not looking for charity.

“Fans, anyone out there who will pledge money to come to us … if they come to us and say we’ll put £100 in, £1000 in, if the big players put in £100,000, £500,000 .., whatever it is, we want it pledged to the company,” he said. “We need a pledge of £2.7m plus to save Bury. If the company, Bury Football Club, needs the money and needs to use it, they’ll put up shares and pay 2.5% interest on that money. We don’t need it, let me say that, unless the EFL pull another stroke.

“So what we’re looking to do now is go out there and say to local businesses – we’ve got massive firms in our areas, we’ve got the Boohoo boys, Together Finance, the old card guy Ron Wood, we’re got loads of people within Bury who will maybe look at it and think: ‘well it’s short change out of my pocket, I’ll pledge some money’.

“If we take any money off someone we’ll pay interest on it and we will secure it on shares in the club. Let me make this clear, we’re not looking for charity here, because we don’t need it. But the EFL want it. The EFL have made this ridiculous claim that we need this money, but we’re saying we don’t!”

Meanwhile Kieran Maguire points out that:

Dale has been a director of over 20 companies that are either dissolved, in liquidation or a CVA. There’s a lot of money to be made by becoming involved in companies in distress.

This is the kind of person the EFL allows to own clubs.

Shameless.

Right at the wire the owner (who is clearly in this to make whatever he can out of the situation, not the good of the club) is essentially saying “not my problem; why don’t you all stump up” to everyone concerned.

The EFL needs to be asked very serious questions about how they vet and allow people to become owners, as with Bury and Bolton they have failed utterly at assessing if the stewards of two clubs are capable.

[phantom]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Still a bit of mis-information out there.

So CVA has been agreed, so the club can continue...but is it the EFL seeking assurances that they can carry on fit the season?

Is Dale saying he doesn’t want to carry on ownership?  So he can’t commit???  But he’s being choosy about who he sells to, because he wants £x back?

That's how it read to me

It was insinuated that he stands to get more money back that way

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I have more faith in her than that idiot Harvey.

He oversaw 2 clubs in administration I believe, claimed he didn't know who owned Leeds when he was CEO there- and yet?? 

How he ever got that job will remain one of life's great mysteries.

Harvey is indeed notorious but the fact that he was appointed tells you a lot about the clubs who appointed him.

Jevans talks like a politician and has been quick to deny the EFL's failure so I'll judge her when I see some action. Given that all she promised to do about clubs being allowed to sell their grounds was to look at the wording I am not holding my breath.

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I believe he passed the fit and proper test, since any old spiv can do that, but the EFL did not, as you say, approve the sale.

Just another example of laughable governance. Jevans in the meantime is trying to exonerate the EFL and promising a review of governance. My money is on that either being kicked into the long grass or recommending cosmetic changes.

Again from The Guardian:

The EFL then confirmed that although Dale passed its “owners and directors test” because he has no criminal convictions, he never provided proof of his “source and sufficiency of funding”, which league rules require of prospective owners before a takeover, or within 10 days afterwards.

[J-mat]

On 22/08/2019 at 13:31, Northern Red said:

Exactly. If you were struggling to pay your mortgage, would you demand help from the bloke across the road whose house is twice as big as yours?

But if you had a house 100 times the size of the guy opposite you, you'd want to help him if he was struggling. 

 

Or at least you should want to. 

 

 

It's not about expecting help when you need it, it's about providing help if you can. That witch Thatcher has a lot to answer to for destroying the morals of English people. 

[bristolcitysweden]

Long live Arthur Scargill

[cityloyal473]

They'll get an extension in my opinion.

[Midred]

I think that Bury's main problem with the efl/fa is that they're not high profile. Hypothetically if any of the top six premier league clubs or even Villa got themselves into the same position as Bury I can't imagine that they'd even consider throwing the club out.

[Davefevs]

Andy Holt - Accrington Stanley owner:

 

[Harry]

5 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

I haven't listened to it, so I don't know where abouts in the show the interview is.

But last week, I'm sure Dale said he had the money.

This bloke (and this Jevons EFL woman) seem to have spent a lot of time on Talksport trading blows - surely they’d have been better off sat in a room sorting it all out, and not come out until it’s done. Seems they are both desperate for public opinion to sway their way rather than sort the problem out. 

On 22/08/2019 at 15:46, Ska Junkie said:

What an excellent idea ZE. 

I would imagine the Premier league transfers over a year are, at a guess, £750M (?), a 1% levy on that would put £7.5M into a 'rescue' fund for this purpose. It's not like the Prem boys wouldn't be able to afford it.

If managed correctly, I think your idea is excellent and would go a very small way to leveling the huge financial disparity in the game.

My only concern would be if clubs would use this as an excuse to overspend knowing this proposed cushion is available if they did get in to trouble. 

This is not a solution in my opinion. It’s the same principle as Parachute Payments. 

You’re basically saying to club owners - “go ahead and spend what you want, but it’s ok because there’s a pot of cash to rescue you if you balls up”. Not the way to go, for me. 

On 22/08/2019 at 17:23, Bristol Rob said:

The easier solution would be for owners buying clubs to be made to lodge 'x' number of millions with the EFL as a bond which would need to be increased annually in line with losses, so that if it does go tits, the club is protected.

Should they want to sell, then they either sell their bond on to the new owner, or if the club is debt free, just get it back from the EFL.

This is the correct solution. I’ve heard Simon Jordan mention this numerous times on Talksport (whilst I know Jordan has been much maligned in the past, he does talk a lot of sense on the ‘business’ side of football, and I like the chap). 

His suggestion is exactly as Rob states above. Owners have to put up a bond of x amount. This sits as security if the club gets into financial trouble. Basically means a ‘put your money where your mouth is’ to any prospective owners. 

Had this Bury bloke had to put up £2m as a bond when he bought Bury for £1, then this bond could now be there to save the club. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 22/08/2019 at 12:31, Sir Geoff said:

I have never understood the argument for 'bigger' clubs helping to rescue financially stricken clubs like Bury. They are where they are for a good reason.

Would B@Q OR Wickes help to save Fred Bloggs DIY store on Bury High St if it was going under, no of course not.

Hope they survive but looks too late now.

Yet the premier league sides were happy to have a whip round to give Scudamore a £5m leaving gift - pity they couldn’t do the same to protect the grass roots of our game ... 

[chinapig]

The situation gets even shadier:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23/bury-company-debt-cva-steve-dale-daughter

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The situation gets even shadier:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23/bury-company-debt-cva-steve-dale-daughter

So in layman’s someone close to Dale has bought the debt of £7m for £70k because under the CVA they’d be due a quarter £1.75m?

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So in layman’s someone close to Dale has bought the debt of £7m for £70k because under the CVA they’d be due a quarter £1.75m?

That appears to be the gist of it.

Thank God we`ve got SL.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

That appears to be the gist of it.

Thank God we`ve got SL.

And the initial CVA would not have stood had they known this.

I’m beginning to think Steve Dale is a piece of shit....have t known the facts up to now....and they are starting to look dodgy.  This Carla chap has just told Sky what he thinks.

[downendcity]

Good news.

The EFL now publish photos of new club owners when they have passed the fit and proper test. 

Photos of the latest owners so approved have been uploaded to the EFL website as below......

 

 

[Ska Junkie]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And the initial CVA would not have stood had they known this.

I’m beginning to think Steve Dale is a piece of shit....have t known the facts up to now....and they are starting to look dodgy.  This Carla chap has just told Sky what he thinks.

I'm in agreement Dave, this is very sinister. He looks to be on the take doesn't he? Profit through the demise of others.