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Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)


Judda

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The problem we have is Football v Football Business v Business.  It appears there are loopholes in each bit.

Where you have legitimate business practices finding loopholes in FFP, e.g. sell and lease-back of your ground, and no consistent valuation method, it’s never gonna hit the mark.

I don’t have the answer though.

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5 hours ago, beaverface said:

All this talk of merging clubs in nonsense in my eyes. I'd rather then clubs went bust and then started at the bottom end of the Pyramid. 

If we went down that route, we'd have a league similar to that of Scotland, where there's few teams left to make up the numbers, and sides would have to play each other 4 times a season!

Football is all about local communities and historical relationships with their areas, not about merging and franchising football clubs.

The quicker the Premier League and all the obscene money associated with it can go bust, the better. Actually, no, let me reword that, the quicker the obscene transfer fees and salaries are gone...the better. I think the money that is coming in could be better utilized further down the lower level grassroots football, and the redevelopment of stadiums and infrastructure.

As a radical thought, wouldn't it be interesting if clubs could only spend wages proportional to their attendances? The clubs could still get their £130million sponsorship per year from being in the Premier league,  but they'd then have to use that money build up their stadium capacities, training complexes, youth team, coaching abilities etc.. but their spending of wages would only be relevant to their attendance levels. It might even encourage lower ticket prices to the fans as it'll be more beneficial for the club to have a 20,000 attendance each paying £5-£10, compared to £25 a head for an attendance of 12,000.

 

The major downside to that thought is all the top talent would be off abroad chasing the money.

As would youngsters as they make a name for themselves then realize that 5 years in Spain and them their kids and their grandchildren are made for life.

Not saying it is right but it’s how it is.

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With all the money sloshing around the top level of the game its mental a club the size of Bolton may go out of existence. I totally get that they have been mismanaged but owners of football clubs are largely transient - the fans are not. However it’s the fans who will suffer. Any club is one bad owner away from being in this position. Something very wrong indeed. I hope they find a solution

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49 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

With all the money sloshing around the top level of the game its mental a club the size of Bolton may go out of existence. I totally get that they have been mismanaged but owners of football clubs are largely transient - the fans are not. However it’s the fans who will suffer. Any club is one bad owner away from being in this position. Something very wrong indeed. I hope they find a solution

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

Edited by ScottishRed
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20 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

Correct. Gartside wasn't daft when he suggested that the PL should be a closed shop. He knew that they were in a financial mess and that if they fell out of the PL something like this could be the end result.

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32 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

Im sure I read that in only one of the eleven years they spent in the premier league did Bolton make a profit.

 

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40 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

The debt was written off though. How much would our notional debt be to SL eg or many clubs to their owners.

Simple overspending, think the Bolton case a lot more complex. Money was pouring out of the club to the administrators and significantly they never published 2017/18 accounts, hard to say based on limited evidence but it's possible they broke even or made a small profit that season.

Did the suns from their 2016/17 accounts, factored in a £6m+ profit on Madine, zero spent on fees, several million rise in TV and solidarity payments- yes their wages would've risen overall but players left too- EFL imposed strict transfer conditions too.

A lot doesn't add up.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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7 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

£197.9m to be exact.

Absolutely staggering. Yet still find themselves in this position.

Simple cashflow issues. As in they need to be wholly self sufficient or it's problems- where would most clubs at this level be if they had to solely break even with zero owner input though?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The problem we have is Football v Football Business v Business.  It appears there are loopholes in each bit.

Where you have legitimate business practices finding loopholes in FFP, e.g. sell and lease-back of your ground, and no consistent valuation method, it’s never gonna hit the mark.

I don’t have the answer though.

A squad salary cap would be a start. 

15 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

£197.9m to be exact.

Absolutely staggering. Yet still find themselves in this position.

Someone has made a lot of money there. Maybe the truth will come out. 

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34 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Correct. Gartside wasn't daft when he suggested that the PL should be a closed shop. He knew that they were in a financial mess and that if they fell out of the PL something like this could be the end result.

Daft enough to jump on the slippery slope of debt though. 

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2 minutes ago, shelts said:

I can see why it’s important to Sir Steve that we do things properly and not just use his millions 

Bolton have a similar infrastructure to us though, surprisingly. Reebok Stadium, Hotel, Conferencing facilities.

Getting top dollar for players is definitely an example of doing it right, so too is building up the club but not so very long ago Bolton broke even quite likely the year we finished 11th and got a Carling Cup run we lost £25m!

We're absolutely currently one of the best run at this level but self sufficient with zero owner investment?

Well 2018/19 we will be but in general? Unsure it's sustainable over even more than 2 years on the spin, just the natue of the division.

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19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The debt was written off though. How much would our notional debt be to SL eg or many clubs to their owners.

Simple overspending, think the Bolton case a lot more complex. Money was pouring out of the club to the administrators and significantly they never published 2017/18 accounts, hard to say based on limited evidence but it's possible they broke even or made a small profit that season.

Did the suns from their 2016/17 accounts, factored in a £6m+ profit on Madine, zero spent on fees, several million rise in TV and solidarity payments- yes their wages would've risen overall but players left too- EFL imposed strict transfer conditions too.

A lot doesn't add up.

It doesn’t add up you are right @Mr Popodopolous but in the “good times” they were spending way above the PL TV money, utter madness.

I don’t think for one second that the current owner did anything other than try to make a few quid out of the club.

EFL to blame for that hands down.

Hope they are OK

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Everyone talks about Bolton but a year ago this could've been Aston Villa.

They were just very, very fortunate they were brought out when they were. Work with an Aston Villa fan, who also understands the financial side and basically Xia couldn't get cash out of China and they were very close to administration or worse!

Maybe a firesale would've done it.

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bolton have a similar infrastructure to us though, surprisingly. Reebok Stadium, Hotel, Conferencing facilities.

Getting top dollar for players is definitely an example of doing it right, so too is building up the club but not so very long ago Bolton broke even quite likely the year we finished 11th and got a Carling Cup run we lost £25m!

We're absolutely currently one of the best run at this level but self sufficient with zero owner investment?

Well 2018/19 we will be but in general? Unsure it's sustainable over even more than 2 years on the spin, just the natue of the division.

I don’t think we plan to be in this division in 2 years - don’t think we plan to be in this division next season @Mr Popodopolous

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1 minute ago, ScottishRed said:

It doesn’t add up you are right @Mr Popodopolous but in the “good times” they were spending way above the PL TV money, utter madness.

I don’t think for one second that the current owner did anything other than try to make a few quid out of the club.

EFL to blame for that hands down.

Hope they are OK

Yeah this is true- think it got worse under Megson and Coyle as they couldn't do more with less like Big Sam.

Then relegation and trying to bounce straight back compounded the issue in 2012/13. Davies due to health possibly, waning interest of his family or maybe a mix of the 2 stopped spending. Debt write off should've been a fresh start...

...Have to say that's braver than I'd put on a public forum about their owner! ?

Agreed- but that idiot Harvey even defended owners.Okay there are plenty of good ones but quite a few irresponsible ones too- but he lumped them all in.

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/efl-championship-play-offs-owners-2911755.amp

So do I. Bury too.

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22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Everyone talks about Bolton but a year ago this could've been Aston Villa.

They were just very, very fortunate they were brought out when they were. Work with an Aston Villa fan, who also understands the financial side and basically Xia couldn't get cash out of China and they were very close to administration or worse!

Maybe a firesale would've done it.

....and we helped them out, restructuring the Baker deal to ease their cashflow!!

Maybe we shouldn’t have bothered!

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

....and we helped them out, restructuring the Baker deal to ease their cashflow!!

Maybe we shouldn’t have bothered!

Indeed.

We seemingly had reasonable relations at boardroom level, think was mentioned on here a while ago?

That was the old regime though- Xia, Wyness- no Purslow. The new lot seem a horrible bunch, Purslow especially.

Dare I say Purslow mostly? Rich owners are commonplace but there's something about him...

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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15 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Really?! Surely no proper football fan would put this proposal forward?

 

Im not a proper football fan because I out the suggestion forward? Hmmm ok then. 

Louis Carey often put forward the idea of us and Rovers merging, guess he's not a proper club legend either then? 

What I am saying is we are on the brink of losing two historic football clubs, if a merger was the only way to save them, then surely that should be explored? Businesses merge all the time so what's the difference?

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1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

Im not a proper football fan because I out the suggestion forward? Hmmm ok then. 

Louis Carey often put forward the idea of us and Rovers merging, guess he's not a proper club legend either then? 

What I am saying is we are on the brink of losing two historic football clubs, if a merger was the only way to save them, then surely that should be explored? Businesses merge all the time so what's the difference?

Identity.

Different towns/cities.

Bury especially means a hell of a lot to their community- smallish town, deprivation. North West Community club of year 2012.

Could be won't of course, but reckon they'd sooner reform in non League than merge with another city's team!

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3 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Im not a proper football fan because I out the suggestion forward? Hmmm ok then. 

Louis Carey often put forward the idea of us and Rovers merging, guess he's not a proper club legend either then? 

What I am saying is we are on the brink of losing two historic football clubs, if a merger was the only way to save them, then surely that should be explored? Businesses merge all the time so what's the difference?

Merging two football clubs is not saving them both. 

Its creating an entirely new one. 

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1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

Im not a proper football fan because I out the suggestion forward? Hmmm ok then. 

Louis Carey often put forward the idea of us and Rovers merging, guess he's not a proper club legend either then? 

What I am saying is we are on the brink of losing two historic football clubs, if a merger was the only way to save them, then surely that should be explored? Businesses merge all the time so what's the difference?

Ok, so let’s assume Bolton and Bury merge and the new club is called Bury Wanderers playing in Bolton - how many Bury fans do you think would consider the new entity to be ‘their club’ ?! And how many Bolton fans would support a team called Bury Wanderers?! You haven’t thought this through - way back a proposal was put forward to merge Reading and Oxford under the name Thames Valley Royals - if you were a Reading or Oxford fan would you have supported ‘that’ ?!

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1 minute ago, miser said:

It seems the problems at Bolton and Bury relate to debt and not to the day to day running costs. Merger doesn't solve the debt problem. 

And the debt relates to a few crooks being involved. The fit and proper test of the EFL is a bit lacking.

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1 minute ago, miser said:

It seems the problems at Bolton and Bury relate to debt and not to the day to day running costs. Merger doesn't solve the debt problem. 

Hard to say.

Bolton had a huge debt write off and really shouldn't be in that position. Ken Anderson mismanaged them horribly...didn't put cash in surely, or sufficient cash to cover losses anyway- but by Championship standards their losses seem pretty low- hell their debt currently pretty low by Championship standards!

Bury I don't know enough about- but seems overspending, must've been at some stage recently.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hard to say.

Bolton had a huge debt write off and really shouldn't be in that position. Ken Anderson mismanaged them horribly...didn't put cash in surely, or sufficient cash to cover losses anyway- but by Championship standards their losses seem pretty low- hell their debt currently pretty low by Championship standards!

Bury I don't know enough about- but seems overspending, must've been at some stage recently.

It's a mystery for Bolton. In theory the debt was written off, but there are still reports of old debts owed. For Bury, there are reports of Gigg Lane being mortgaged to finance the owners property empire (or not empire). Not sure that all the problems are down to actual running costs. 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bolton have a similar infrastructure to us though, surprisingly. Reebok Stadium, Hotel, Conferencing facilities.

Getting top dollar for players is definitely an example of doing it right, so too is building up the club but not so very long ago Bolton broke even quite likely the year we finished 11th and got a Carling Cup run we lost £25m!

We're absolutely currently one of the best run at this level but self sufficient with zero owner investment?

Well 2018/19 we will be but in general? Unsure it's sustainable over even more than 2 years on the spin, just the natue of the division.

Fine line 

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Whilst it may be too late for Bolton and possibly Bury the authorities need to get their act together to stop these situations happening, imposing a salary cap for example and ensuring there aren’t any ridiculous loopholes 

Also i’d like to see some sort of levy imposed as sort of a membership fee of the top 4 divisions. If 1% of turnover and tv money went into a centrally managed fund this could go towards grassroots as well as issuing grants to make it more of a level playing field. If clubs refuse to pay this fee then they should be kicked out of the league and it’s only really the top 6 clubs who’d threaten to break away if this happened 

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