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Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)


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16 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Theres an old saying " You  cant make a silk purse from a sow's ear " . Or in this case, two sow's ears.

Weren’t Dagenham and Redbridge local rivals who didn’t really like each other, but merged so they could pool resources and have a shot at getting into the football league? It does happen. 

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1 hour ago, walnutroof said:

Whilst it may be too late for Bolton and possibly Bury the authorities need to get their act together to stop these situations happening, imposing a salary cap for example and ensuring there aren’t any ridiculous loopholes 

Also i’d like to see some sort of levy imposed as sort of a membership fee of the top 4 divisions. If 1% of turnover and tv money went into a centrally managed fund this could go towards grassroots as well as issuing grants to make it more of a level playing field. If clubs refuse to pay this fee then they should be kicked out of the league and it’s only really the top 6 clubs who’d threaten to break away if this happened 

Salary caps don't work much better, over here in the NRL they're frequently being rorted. Things like the players girlfriends getting paid 100k a year to work for 1hr behind the clubhouse bar, lots of owners and private sponsors paying brown envelopes outside the system to top players.

Unfortunately human greed will always find away around most of the rules, i guess all you can make is the punishment for getting caught not worth doing the cheating in the first place.

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I feel sorry for the fans. They haven’t spent beyond their means. They just buy their tickets and merchandise from their clubs, plus all the expense it takes going to and from watching their team play, and hope that the powers that be use their hard earned money sensibly to take their club forward. 
Those owners are not fans. If their venture goes wrong they will simply move on. 
Real shame that this has been allowed to happen. Football is in the blood - we all know that. I may be in the minority here, but wouldn’t even wish this on the Sags. It’s a sad day for football - but also English culture - when a football club folds.

I can remember this happening to Chester City, Hereford United and Newport County - it’s taken how many years for Newport to climb back into the league (?) but as far as I know the other 2 clubs are still out of business (happy to be corrected on this - not Googled it!! :) )

(No idea how the text size changed half way through this - and can’t work out how to standardise it ? )

Edited by bcfcredandwhite
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47 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Weren’t Dagenham and Redbridge local rivals who didn’t really like each other, but merged so they could pool resources and have a shot at getting into the football league? It does happen. 

Can you imagine the scenes if Streatham Rovers and Dynamo Catford were ever forced to merge. 

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2 hours ago, walnutroof said:

Whilst it may be too late for Bolton and possibly Bury the authorities need to get their act together to stop these situations happening, imposing a salary cap for example and ensuring there aren’t any ridiculous loopholes 

Also i’d like to see some sort of levy imposed as sort of a membership fee of the top 4 divisions. If 1% of turnover and tv money went into a centrally managed fund this could go towards grassroots as well as issuing grants to make it more of a level playing field. If clubs refuse to pay this fee then they should be kicked out of the league and it’s only really the top 6 clubs who’d threaten to break away if this happened 

True but if those 6 did break away then it would destroy the entire league system.  The money will always follow the likes of Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool. 

In the long run it might not be a bad thing if the top 6 buggered off to a European superleague, but in the short term it would cause chaos in the leagues as the money dried up and clubs started going bust. 

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1 hour ago, Sydneybcfc said:

Salary caps don't work much better, over here in the NRL they're frequently being rorted. Things like the players girlfriends getting paid 100k a year to work for 1hr behind the clubhouse bar, lots of owners and private sponsors paying brown envelopes outside the system to top players.

Unfortunately human greed will always find away around most of the rules, i guess all you can make is the punishment for getting caught not worth doing the cheating in the first place.

Only way it really works is in ‘closed systems’ like the NFL, but there isn’t really any prospect of that happening in English football.

I agree that imposing one on the UK isn’t likely a viable solution, and regardless; the FFP rules we have haven’t stopped clubs falling into this position.

Chasing promotion/glory is an expensive business, and with the rewards for reaching the promised land so great, clubs will take risks.

Someone mentioned Villa above; they threw everything they had at getting back up and succeeded, while Stoke look to have failed - I’m curious as to how the Potters are doing ‘under the hood’ as carrying players like Butland who must be on very decent wages while looking miles off promotion can’t be good for them.

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Aswell as the owners of these clubs how have no shame whatsoever the EFL are just as bad for letting people like them takeover in the first place. Look into their worthless ‘fit and proper test’ and it states the EFL can’t take anything into account from potential new owners financial history from more than 8 years previous. Why they have that I do not know, looking at their history especially Anderson’s he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a football club.

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7 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Going back to the comments about salary caps (and apologies of it has already been mentioned).

During their last season or so in the Championship, Bolton were under a salary cap as part of their embargo.

Good point, but it was kind of "after the horse has bolted". 

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7 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Good point, but it was kind of "after the horse has bolted". 

Unsure about that, in 2017/18 so far as we can see they broke even or made a profit- if not, where the cash went because salary cap, rise in income from promotion, released players and £6m for Madine- it enabled them to get through the season.

Perhaps they needed a 'Madine' type sale each season and that's just in the Championship- yet their overall losses and indeed debt by Championship standards are very low- at best Anderson put next to nothing in it would seem.

This thread once read in full helps pick out the key bits.

At minimum, he and his family took £650,000 in consultancy fees it'd seem in his first season alone.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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20 hours ago, foghornred said:

Bury and Bolton going bust because of non football people owners who have no right to own a club, THANK GOD THAT WE HAVE AN OWNER WHO IS ONE OF THE BEST STEVE LANSDOWN :clap::clapping::clap:

Easier said that done... I dont think its Boltons current owners fault they made such big debts whilst in the prem...

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8 minutes ago, miketh2nd said:

Easier said that done... I dont think its Boltons current owners fault they made such big debts whilst in the prem...

If the PL debt was written off- which it was, then how is it affecting them now? Debt write off was supposed to be a fresh start, a final roll of the dice.

Btw check out admittedly may be outdated management accounts- according to Kieran Maguire the administrators payment is £340.77 per hour- very nice work if you can get it?

Still maybe it's fairly standard in that world- is a complex job no doubt. :dunno:

You might want to look at Championship debts and owners if they ever decided to call in their full investment.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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5 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I feel sorry for the fans. They haven’t spent beyond their means. They just buy their tickets and merchandise from their clubs, plus all the expense it takes going to and from watching their team play, and hope that the powers that be use their hard earned money sensibly to take their club forward. 
Those owners are not fans. If their venture goes wrong they will simply move on. 
Real shame that this has been allowed to happen. Football is in the blood - we all know that. I may be in the minority here, but wouldn’t even wish this on the Sags. It’s a sad day for football - but also English culture - when a football club folds.

I can remember this happening to Chester City, Hereford United and Newport County - it’s taken how many years for Newport to climb back into the league (?) but as far as I know the other 2 clubs are still out of business (happy to be corrected on this - not Googled it!! :) )

(No idea how the text size changed half way through this - and can’t work out how to standardise it ? )

I'm sorry but yes I do wish it on the sags because they are a horrible football club and their fanbase is rotten to the core.

If Bury or Bolton were closer then no doubt they would be after their stadiums, whilst trying to get someone else to pay for it.

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13 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Ok, so let’s assume Bolton and Bury merge and the new club is called Bury Wanderers playing in Bolton - how many Bury fans do you think would consider the new entity to be ‘their club’ ?! And how many Bolton fans would support a team called Bury Wanderers?! You haven’t thought this through - way back a proposal was put forward to merge Reading and Oxford under the name Thames Valley Royals - if you were a Reading or Oxford fan would you have supported ‘that’ ?!

Way back, a proposal was also out forward to merge Bury, Rochdale and Oldham, to be called Manchester North End, 20 years down the line and you could say that idea wasn't that bad of an idea.

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34 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Way back, a proposal was also out forward to merge Bury, Rochdale and Oldham, to be called Manchester North End, 20 years down the line and you could say that idea wasn't that bad of an idea.

20 years ago, Oldham & Bury were both 2nd Tier clubs and Rochdale hadn't been promoted or relegated for 30 years (the epitome of stability on the face of things! I know they were probably riddled with debt and a dilapidated stadium). Wigan, Swansea, Reading & Cardiff have all seen a decent rise up the footballing pyramid since then - it could also be said that running a modest football club sustainably isn't that bad of an idea, that's not down to the fans.

This country has the appetite to sustain more than 100 professional football clubs & most prove their worth to their communities every year. Rushden & Diamonds, Dagenham & Redbridge, Hayes & Yeading were all non-league and had to pool resources to make a step up, I do think they brought more to the community as a joint entity than as 2 individual teams [happy to stand corrected]. I'm not even sure Hayes & Yeading did much more than tread water - I think that merger was a necessity because of finances.

I don't think one would gain even as much as the other two towns(?) would lose in this scenario, let alone do any more for the area.

A well run club should be the pride of a town which can be relied upon to have its fair share of joys and disappointments, bumper crowds and leaner seasons - they should not have to empty their pockets to support it when the next failed businessman risks everything for an ego trip and it doesn't work.

It happens time and again, just when you think football is beginning to learn

 

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37 minutes ago, foghornred said:

You only have to Google it the Bury owner has been in charge of loads of companies that have gone bust he should never have been able to take over a Football club with that record

Don't think Ken Anderson at Bolton's track record pre buying them is especially shining either.

Two- at best- grossly incompetent, and definitely unfit and improper persons to run football clubs.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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25 minutes ago, foghornred said:

You only have to Google it the Bury owner has been in charge of loads of companies that have gone bust he should never have been able to take over a Football club with that record

The worst thing is that he failed the fit and proper persons test and yet the EFL still let him buy the club.

I would say they have a lot to answer for but we’ve already had enough of their woolly statements. It’s time they took action. No wonder Shaun Harvey ran away before this crisis came to its peak

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3 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

When they get a 14 day notice to prove funds. 

This goes on forever. 

I thought that too, though I did hear it said that in those 14 days they can’t be taken over, and it would be near impossible for them to currently offer proof that they could continue.

At this stage it is all proper confusing though, so not really sure of what will take place. If two league one sides fold will play havoc with the league tbh.

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5 minutes ago, samo II said:

I thought that too, though I did hear it said that in those 14 days they can’t be taken over, and it would be near impossible for them to currently offer proof that they could continue.

At this stage it is all proper confusing though, so not really sure of what will take place. If two league one sides fold will play havoc with the league tbh.

Maybe that would force the current owner's hand? I wonder if he has the cash but just doesn't want to inject anything. 

Who knows what he stands to lose/gain depending on the scenario. 

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39 minutes ago, solihull cider red said:

20 years ago, Oldham & Bury were both 2nd Tier clubs and Rochdale hadn't been promoted or relegated for 30 years (the epitome of stability on the face of things! I know they were probably riddled with debt and a dilapidated stadium). Wigan, Swansea, Reading & Cardiff have all seen a decent rise up the footballing pyramid since then - it could also be said that running a modest football club sustainably isn't that bad of an idea, that's not down to the fans.

This country has the appetite to sustain more than 100 professional football clubs & most prove their worth to their communities every year. Rushden & Diamonds, Dagenham & Redbridge, Hayes & Yeading were all non-league and had to pool resources to make a step up, I do think they brought more to the community as a joint entity than as 2 individual teams [happy to stand corrected]. I'm not even sure Hayes & Yeading did much more than tread water - I think that merger was a necessity because of finances.

I don't think one would gain even as much as the other two towns(?) would lose in this scenario, let alone do any more for the area.

A well run club should be the pride of a town which can be relied upon to have its fair share of joys and disappointments, bumper crowds and leaner seasons - they should not have to empty their pockets to support it when the next failed businessman risks everything for an ego trip and it doesn't work.

It happens time and again, just when you think football is beginning to learn

 

The issue is, can greater Manchester sustain all the teams they have in the area? 

20 years on and there is now two huge Manchester clubs that will draw support from far and wide. Personally I don't think all these greater Manchester clubs will be able to continue in their current form.

Wigan, Reading, Cardiff and Swansea all rose up the football pyramid because of investment. Unfortunately the Burys and Rochdale's of this world are not that attractive of an investment as those clubs were, due to living in the shadow of the huge Manchester clubs. 

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