Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)

[CotswoldRed]

1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

The issue is, can greater Manchester sustain all the teams they have in the area? 

20 years on and there is now two huge Manchester clubs that will draw support from far and wide. Personally I don't think all these greater Manchester clubs will be able to continue in their current form.

Wigan, Reading, Cardiff and Swansea all rose up the football pyramid because of investment. Unfortunately the Burys and Rochdale's of this world are not that attractive of an investment as those clubs were, due to living in the shadow of the huge Manchester clubs. 

So long as the crowds are big enough then yes. 

Bolton is also under significant pressure from the change in their demographic too. Lets just say the local population is less likely to attend football than would have done 30/40 years ago. 

Nothing wrong with that, just the way it is. 

[Loderingo]

9 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

The issue is, can greater Manchester sustain all the teams they have in the area? 

20 years on and there is now two huge Manchester clubs that will draw support from far and wide. Personally I don't think all these greater Manchester clubs will be able to continue in their current form.

Wigan, Reading, Cardiff and Swansea all rose up the football pyramid because of investment. Unfortunately the Burys and Rochdale's of this world are not that attractive of an investment as those clubs were, due to living in the shadow of the huge Manchester clubs. 

Leyton Orient are another one who have found life tough in the shadow of bigger teams.  Teams like Yeovil and FGR are small clubs but they don't particularly have any local competition.

Our own relative success vs Rovers has seen us grow our combine share of local fans.  If you think at one point it was nearer 50/50 and it is now 75% City, 25% Rovers

[Up The City!]

 

19 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

So long as the crowds are big enough then yes. 

Bolton is also under significant pressure from the change in their demographic too. Lets just say the local population is less likely to attend football than would have done 30/40 years ago. 

Nothing wrong with that, just the way it is. 

Rochdale 3,574 (record average attendance)

Oldham 4,264

Bury 3,845

Bolton 15,887

Wigan 11,661

Salford 2,489

Are those average attendances from last season really big enough and sustainable?

 

[Drew Peacock]

I do wonder why the Neville brothers got involved with Salford rather than Bury, a club with a stand named after their Dad and whose mother worked as Club Secretary for many, many years.

[ChippenhamRed]

2 hours ago, Up The City! said:

I'm sorry but yes I do wish it on the sags because they are a horrible football club and their fanbase is rotten to the core.

If Bury or Bolton were closer then no doubt they would be after their stadiums, whilst trying to get someone else to pay for it.

Hate this attitude. Of course we all love to hate Rovers but I would always draw the line at wishing them out of existence.

I know plenty of Rovers fans and they’re not all “rotten to the core”. They’re ordinary people who enjoy football and love their club. They’re colleagues, fellow parents at the school, old school mates, even friends. It’s their misfortune that they follow the one they do, but at least they are backing a local team. We have plenty of less desirable characters amongst our own support - how would you like to be tarred with the same brush as them?

I enjoy banter with my Rovers-supporting friends, I laugh at their tinpot club in their tinpot ground...but I don’t want their club not to exist. It means something to them and I can respect that. And I would miss the rivalry.

If you genuinely consider ALL supporters of a rival club to be “rotten” people, I would suggest football means too much to you.

[Drew Peacock]

7 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

 

Rochdale 3,574 (record average attendance)

Oldham 4,264

Bury 3,845

Bolton 15,887

Wigan 11,661

Salford 2,489

Are those average attendances from last season really big enough and sustainable?

 

 

If 15,887 isn't sustainable then there are around 10 clubs in the Championship at risk and virtually all of L1 and L2.

[Fatalist]

29 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

The issue is, can greater Manchester sustain all the teams they have in the area? 

20 years on and there is now two huge Manchester clubs that will draw support from far and wide. Personally I don't think all these greater Manchester clubs will be able to continue in their current form.

Wigan, Reading, Cardiff and Swansea all rose up the football pyramid because of investment. Unfortunately the Burys and Rochdale's of this world are not that attractive of an investment as those clubs were, due to living in the shadow of the huge Manchester clubs. 

Natural selection has reduced the number of clubs in an area when times change. The North West couldn't sustain Darwen, Nelson, Glossop and Accrington , and South Wales decline in the valleys saw off Aberdare and Merthyr. All a long time ago, but maybe it's starting again.

You have to hand it people who stick with their club rather than bigger local rivals, but there is point where it just isn't sustainable.

[Always Believesham]

36 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

The issue is, can greater Manchester sustain all the teams they have in the area? 

20 years on and there is now two huge Manchester clubs that will draw support from far and wide. Personally I don't think all these greater Manchester clubs will be able to continue in their current form.

Wigan, Reading, Cardiff and Swansea all rose up the football pyramid because of investment. Unfortunately the Burys and Rochdale's of this world are not that attractive of an investment as those clubs were, due to living in the shadow of the huge Manchester clubs. 

 

11 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

 

Rochdale 3,574 (record average attendance)

Oldham 4,264

Bury 3,845

Bolton 15,887

Wigan 11,661

Salford 2,489

Are those average attendances from last season really big enough and sustainable?

 

 

I understand that - and take your point, I do feel like Wigan, Reading et al. were in the right place at the right time when investment came.

I would put the failings of Bury & Bolton down to owners chasing their losses - agree crowds are required to keep these teams afloat but is it out of the question that they should live within their means?

I think Wigan are fairly sustainable, I doubt Preston's average attendance is much higher & assume they are well run (now, 2009 was touch and go) - ultimatley there are limited tickets to see giant clubs each week. How many people in Bristol support a premier league team & a Bristol Club? It's not out of the question that local residents will watch the team without considering them their first team.

As a borough, Bolton is home to quarter of a million people, Oldham is apparently similar as a borough - if more people can watch Burnley at Wembley than actually live in the town (edit:Borough) of Burnley selling the sport isn't the problem, someone isn't marketing the club right.

(populations from Wiki so take with a pinch of salt)

My general point is, if it's a lack of bums on seats causing a problem - teams need to (& do) tighten their belts, they could reasonably expect to increase crowds with the right marketing too.

Edited August 27, 2019 by solihull cider red

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Fatalist said:

Natural selection has reduced the number of clubs in an area when times change. The North West couldn't sustain Darwen, Nelson, Glossop and Accrington , and South Wales decline in the valleys saw off Aberdare and Merthyr. All a long time ago, but maybe it's starting again.

You have to hand it people who stick with their club rather than bigger local rivals, but there is point where it just isn't sustainable.

Though they're back!

Brilliantly, got promoted back in 40 years after the bankruptcy of the original- brilliant in a symbolic sense, and I think Oxford replaced them in the League. Well their promotion would have been all the sweeter as when they returned in 2006, Oxford went down.

Interestingly there are a number of those original clubs still in existence in non League- add to that Barrow, Gainsborough, Southport and Workington all voted out at varied times. Reformed versions of some of the others of course but glad to see some of those e.g. the 3 I listed, had a quick look and both Glossop and Nelson still exist- Darwen went bust but very quickly reformed and still play in their own ground- half a continuity.

Back in those days, it must have been tempting to just give up if voted out of the League, professional to semi professional in one close season, no promotion/relegation system until 1986? Credit to those clubs that managed to avoid this.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

40 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

So long as the crowds are big enough then yes. 

Bolton is also under significant pressure from the change in their demographic too. Lets just say the local population is less likely to attend football than would have done 30/40 years ago. 

Nothing wrong with that, just the way it is. 

Cracking piano in this.

[Southport Red]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Though they're back!

Brilliantly, got promoted back in 40 years after the bankruptcy of the original- brilliant in a symbolic sense, and I think Oxford replaced them in the League. Well their promotion would have been all the sweeter as when they returned in 2006, Oxford went down.

Interestingly there are a number of those original clubs still in existence in non League- add to that Barrow, Gainsborough, Southport and Workington all voted out at varied times. Reformed versions of some of the others of course but glad to see some of those e.g. the 3 I listed, had a quick look and both Glossop and Nelson still exist- Darwen went bust but very quickly reformed and still play in their own ground- half a continuity.

Southport were replaced by Wigan. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

40 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Southport were replaced by Wigan. 

Quite rare that- usually Northern clubs were ejected/voted out for Southern ones- doubtless there's a list somewhere.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

So many comments about how lucky we are to have SL, when looking at the plight of cubs like Bury and Bolton.

I think there are major differences between SL and many club owners, and not just in term of the level of personal wealth. In Bury's case in particular ( they aren't the first and won't be the last) there are strong suspicions that the owners motivation is how much he can personally profit from club ownership,

I'm not suggesting that SL is not looking to make us profitable, although in the championship it is a bit of an uphill struggle, but I suspect his motivation is for something more than that. I am sure he is looking to build something that has not really been done in English football with the Bristol Sport model, and to leave something as a legacy long term that will be seen as successful beyond Bristol City's achievements alone. 

The Bury owner's slightly sharp actions by getting £7m of club debt purchase by his son in law for a fraction of that, appear to be with the intention of turning a quick profit. I know that many have been sceptical of SL's motives with various aspects of the club's operation, in particular Bristol Sport,  but  I see SL's aim of sustainability as not only a pretty clear commitment of long term planning and commitment, but the intention of securing the club's long term future and a legacy that will probably pass to the hands of his son, who is hopefully gaining all the knowledge and experience he can from Dad and will prove a "chip off the old block" when his time comes around, even though it will be a very difficult act to follow.

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by downendcity

[Southport Red]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Quite rare that- usually Northern clubs got ejected/voted out for Southern ones- doubtless there's a list somewhere.

I used to work with the Chairman of Wigan at that time. That particular year the Football League were v keen not to dilute the NW contingent. If a Southern Team had finished bottom if Div 4 that year, Wigan mightn’t have gotten in. Because Southport is less than 20 miles from Wigan, it was felt to be OK so Wigan took there place. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, Up The City! said:

Way back, a proposal was also out forward to merge Bury, Rochdale and Oldham, to be called Manchester North End, 20 years down the line and you could say that idea wasn't that bad of an idea.

I thought that was an awful idea - did you really think fans of Bury, Oldham and Rochdale would have supported Manchester North End in their droves whilst watching their own clubs’ histories and traditions be expunged overnight? Would you be in favour of City merging with other clubs and changing the club’s name, stadium and kit colours etc? Would you go and watch? 

You were probably in favour of Hull City being renamed and Cardiff changing their home kit to red ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I thought that was an awful idea - did you really think fans of Bury, Oldham and Rochdale would have supported Manchester North End in their droves whilst watching their own clubs’ histories and traditions be expunged overnight? Would you be in favour of City merging with other clubs and changing the club’s name, stadium and kit colours etc? Would you go and watch? 

You were probably in favour of Hull City being renamed and Cardiff changing their home kit to red ...

...Not to mention the identity, between town, club and community- arguably the smaller the town, the closer this is for a professional club?

[Dastardly and Muttley]

Bury are done. C&N have pulled out.

[Numero Uno]

Bury takeover just announced as off.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Drew Peacock said:

I do wonder why the Neville brothers got involved with Salford rather than Bury, a club with a stand named after their Dad and whose mother worked as Club Secretary for many, many years.

I've been thinking the same for some weeks. Really puzzled why they went for Salford rather than Bury.

[Loderingo]

Sad news about Bury.

[soultrader]

6 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

Under pay as you play. They could call it, 'The Giggsy Economy'.

Isn't it ?  Marvelous

[Steve Watts]

Bury are gone.  Takeover has fallen through. Sad times

[Carey 6]

Horrid really. Hopefully the fans all get behind a new Phoenix club. 

[Super]

Awful news.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Fatalist said:

Natural selection has reduced the number of clubs in an area when times change. The North West couldn't sustain Darwen, Nelson, Glossop and Accrington , and South Wales decline in the valleys saw off Aberdare and Merthyr. All a long time ago, but maybe it's starting again.

You have to hand it people who stick with their club rather than bigger local rivals, but there is point where it just isn't sustainable.

Replaced by Wigan, Salford, Macclesfield. Stockport also on the road to recovery?

[samo II]

That’s tragic about Bury - no word on Bolton either and not much time left.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I've been thinking the same for some weeks. Really puzzled why they went for Salford rather than Bury.

Salford- not far from Old Trafford, big Man Utd fanbase.

[FForbes]

Sad news !!

Not sure if mentioned in previous replies but Bury are the only team that BCFC have played at all 4 levels of the League.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Replaced by Wigan, Salford, Macclesfield. Stockport also on the road to recovery?

Looking at some of the Conference North, the number of ex clubs from the lower 2 divisions or reformed versions of them is nuts!

Like a Division 5 in parts.

[Olé]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49486208

WTF.