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Judda

Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)

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1 minute ago, daored said:

Can add Huddersfield to the list as well, if what I’ve been told is correct 

I had a pretty bad feeling looking from the outside about their new owner who brought them this summer, once Hoyle sold up- due to ill health or whatever.

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26 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

One of the guys who helped save them some years back, Ian Harrup ,  a lifelong (50+ years) Bury fan was in a state on radio last night Poor bloke

He claimed that the going ons at Bury were being looked at by the Serious Fraud Office 

Was this Just him emotional or , (hopefully) is there some truth in this ?

Hes also vowed to finance forensic accountants to expose what’s gone on 

I hope he does 

Something needs to be done…and quickly. I don't want the club to be bulldozed because of some lazy, incompetent bureaucracy :ranting::redcard:

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7 minutes ago, daored said:

Can add Huddersfield to the list as well, if what I’ve been told is correct 

Blimey didn’t realise their was any problems there

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I had a pretty bad feeling looking from the outside about their new owner who brought them this summer, once Hoyle sold up- due to ill health or whatever.

I Missed that too

 

If I had a hunch on a bigger club it would be Stoke

When you see the wages they were dishing out - crazy

And they gave Bauer and Joe Allen new 5 year contracts when they were relegated from the prem

Theres an interesting piece by Kevin Phillips where he explains that Stoke gave some players Bauer and Allen incl new contracts on relegation to stop them pushing to leave , as said players were very unhappy that their wages were due to drop due to relegation clauses !

Phillips indicated that immediately you had a mix of relegated players many of whom were unhappy that some had been given a pay boost with them left on reduced wages

 

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I am just gutted about this whole situation and feel so sorry for Bury fans. 

Colin Bell started his career at Bury and other prominent players such as Stan Bowles, Neville Southall and Lee Dixon also learned their trade at Gigg Lane before going on to have very successful careers at the bigger clubs.

A significant piece of football history has been taken away from our game and having gone through the 1982 stuff I just feel so bad for all Shakers fans ...

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6 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Something needs to be done…and quickly. I don't want the club to be bulldozed because of some lazy, incompetent bureaucracy :ranting::redcard:

I have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of company business , CVAs , Liquidation , purchasing debt etc 

But reading those who do , on here , and listening to pieces on radio and in press etc I would say if some criminal conduct has not gone on it must run very close

Also , The fact that the EFL are obliged to check funding of new owner within 10 days of taking ownership and yet still havnt done so with Dale 8/9 months later is incredible 

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Ever since the news of Bury's potential demise broke, I've seen so many tweets and FB posts around how we're lucky to have Steve Lansdown, because he cares and would never do this to us.

Obviously, that much is true, but to put on my overly cynical hat, I don't believe any owner buys a football club with the sole intention of stripping it for its assets, mostly because any idiot knows that the second Steve Dale tries that land will go up in flames and be vandalised to the point of it being worthless.

IMO, this problem runs deeper than the EFL failing to implement a "proper" fit and proper persons test on the characters that have ruined these clubs. Current legislation allows owners to strip assets from clubs, as they would do with any asset-rich company, in order to raise capital. Bristol City are one such club that no longer owns its own stadium, and probably won't own its own training ground after redevelopment. I'm not suggesting that Lansdown would ever allow us to fail, but as Sunderland have shown you can drop through the divisions like a stone, and an owner that once cared can be disillusioned by the situation, and sell up to anyone.

The reason I brought up Lansdown is to demonstrate that, IMO, we're past the point of no return. By allowing clubs to separate their assets into limited companies, we can't go back and say "sorry Lansdown, you need to give back the stadium you spent millions on because some owners can't be trusted". It's also unfair (and probably) illegal to force a fan ownership/presidency model on clubs when the reason the Premier League and modern football is thriving is because of foreign investment.

You'd be very interested in the tax figures for football as a whole. Across the Premier League there are players on every team earning millions a year. All of those players are being taxed, so all of that money is then flowing into our economy, so imagine telling the government that they need to kick an industry that gives so much and happily allows them to give it a kicking for societies issues?

Anyway, my main point is that this will be the new norm, and if Dale gets off reasonably scot-free for allowing this to happen I can see more owners stripping assets and selling them after expulsion in the lower leagues - especially in areas where land is expensive. Why the **** would you spend millions to build up a football team that hates you when you can rack up debt, not pay people for months, and sell that land for millions?

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Apparently Bolton only needed one signatory of one of the parties to finalise the takeover deal as of last Friday.

Then, over the weekend that signatory asked for £250k just to put their name to the deal.

Where does this greed come from? I really despair sometimes at what our society has become. 

For those asking why Bolton are getting 14 days, I assume it's because they are very close to a deal and also because in the meantime they are at least fulfilling their fixtures. Bury had missed six fixtures and it was becoming unrealistic for them to fit those rearranged fixtures into a condensed season. 

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6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Blimey didn’t realise their was any problems there

I Missed that too

 

If I had a hunch on a bigger club it would be Stoke

When you see the wages they were dishing out - crazy

And they gave Bauer and Joe Allen new 5 year contracts when they were relegated from the prem

Theres an interesting piece by Kevin Phillips where he explains that Stoke gave some players Bauer and Allen incl new contracts on relegation to stop them pushing to leave , as said players were very unhappy that their wages were due to drop due to relegation clauses !

Phillips indicated that immediately you had a mix of relegated players many of whom were unhappy that some had been given a pay boost with them left on reduced wages

 

It's extremely unlikely a club will go bust whilst still receiving parachute payments.  They will always have some attraction to a potential buyer.  The problem is when they run out and clubs haven't cut their cloth accordingly. If what you say is true, they could be in problems down the line.  Whoever chose to hand out new contracts is a complete fool.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Blimey didn’t realise their was any problems there

I Missed that too

 

If I had a hunch on a bigger club it would be Stoke

When you see the wages they were dishing out - crazy

And they gave Bauer and Joe Allen new 5 year contracts when they were relegated from the prem

Theres an interesting piece by Kevin Phillips where he explains that Stoke gave some players Bauer and Allen incl new contracts on relegation to stop them pushing to leave , as said players were very unhappy that their wages were due to drop due to relegation clauses !

Phillips indicated that immediately you had a mix of relegated players many of whom were unhappy that some had been given a pay boost with them left on reduced wages

 

Didn't realise myself either- would have assumed they have a reasonable wage policy, parachute payments, surely wrote in wage reductions a club of their size/relative expectations! All seems a bit of a puzzle...

Solvency wise, unsure about Stoke facing problems- Coates owner of Bet365 and from Stoke, pretty sure he is a Stoke fan too and has been chairman through worse times- FFP wise 100% problems.  Yes some poor decisions last few seasons but he seems one of the best owners around overall IMO- for as long as the Coates family retain an interest (financial and actual) in Stoke, I don't see them having insolvency issues.

Agree on the crazy wages , clearly a gamble to go straight back up? Will look into that article later, sounds interesting- I remember reading that Allen didn't get a cut, wasn't aware of anyone else.  Would help to explain some of their current travails, seen Stoke described as 'toxic' right now quite a few times and this is probably a large part of the reason why?

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1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Apparently Bolton only needed one signatory of one of the parties to finalise the takeover deal as of last Friday.

Then, over the weekend that signatory asked for £250k just to put their name to the deal.

Where does this greed come from? I really despair sometimes at what our society has become. 

For those asking why Bolton are getting 14 days, I assume it's because they are very close to a deal and also because in the meantime they are at least fulfilling their fixtures. Bury had missed six fixtures and it was becoming unrealistic for them to fit those rearranged fixtures into a condensed season. 

That will be Anderson then as his solicitors were the only ones they were waiting for on Friday

******* Snake

Him and that piece of **** Dale should be burnt at the stake

Criminals in a businessman’s guise

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1 minute ago, EnderMB said:

Ever since the news of Bury's potential demise broke, I've seen so many tweets and FB posts around how we're lucky to have Steve Lansdown, because he cares and would never do this to us.

Obviously, that much is true, but to put on my overly cynical hat, I don't believe any owner buys a football club with the sole intention of stripping it for its assets, mostly because any idiot knows that the second Steve Dale tries that land will go up in flames and be vandalised to the point of it being worthless.

IMO, this problem runs deeper than the EFL failing to implement a "proper" fit and proper persons test on the characters that have ruined these clubs. Current legislation allows owners to strip assets from clubs, as they would do with any asset-rich company, in order to raise capital. Bristol City are one such club that no longer owns its own stadium, and probably won't own its own training ground after redevelopment. I'm not suggesting that Lansdown would ever allow us to fail, but as Sunderland have shown you can drop through the divisions like a stone, and an owner that once cared can be disillusioned by the situation, and sell up to anyone.

The reason I brought up Lansdown is to demonstrate that, IMO, we're past the point of no return. By allowing clubs to separate their assets into limited companies, we can't go back and say "sorry Lansdown, you need to give back the stadium you spent millions on because some owners can't be trusted". It's also unfair (and probably) illegal to force a fan ownership/presidency model on clubs when the reason the Premier League and modern football is thriving is because of foreign investment.

You'd be very interested in the tax figures for football as a whole. Across the Premier League there are players on every team earning millions a year. All of those players are being taxed, so all of that money is then flowing into our economy, so imagine telling the government that they need to kick an industry that gives so much and happily allows them to give it a kicking for societies issues?

Anyway, my main point is that this will be the new norm, and if Dale gets off reasonably scot-free for allowing this to happen I can see more owners stripping assets and selling them after expulsion in the lower leagues - especially in areas where land is expensive. Why the **** would you spend millions to build up a football team that hates you when you can rack up debt, not pay people for months, and sell that land for millions?

I don't know…there was a programme on about 10 years ago (Bryan Robson was on it) and it was discussing that exactly. Usually foreign, buying lower league clubs and basically stripping them of all their assets. 

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8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Didn't realise myself either- would have assumed they have a reasonable wage policy, parachute payments, surely wrote in wage reductions a club of their size/relative expectations! All seems a bit of a puzzle...

Solvency wise, unsure about Stoke facing problems- Coates owner of Bet365 and from Stoke, pretty sure he is a Stoke fan too and has been chairman through worse times- FFP wise 100% problems.  Yes some poor decisions last few seasons but he seems one of the best owners around overall IMO- for as long as the Coates family retain an interest (financial and actual) in Stoke, I don't see them having insolvency issues.

Agree on the crazy wages , clearly a gamble to go straight back up? Will look into that article later, sounds interesting- I remember reading that Allen didn't get a cut, wasn't aware of anyone else.  Would help to explain some of their current travails, seen Stoke described as 'toxic' right now quite a few times and this is probably a large part of the reason why?

 

:thumbsup:

Former Stoke City coach Kevin Phillips has claimed some players retained their Premier League wages after relegation, a decision which he believes damaged morale at the club. 

Phillips , the former Sunderland, Southampton and West Brom striker, was part of Gary Rowett’s backroom team at Stoke until the manager was sacked in January following a difficult eight months at the club. 

But during a discussion on BBC Radio 5 Live about the problems facing team when they are relegated, Phillips said it was something he had seen at Stoke City last summer

He explained: “In terms of pay when teams come down, where players are having 40 per cent to 50 per cent cuts in their wages, we experienced this at Stoke.

“Straight away there was a rift within the squad because three or four players were put straight back on their Premier League contracts just to keep them at the club for this season.

“But there were other players who were not given their Premier League money, so straight away you’re fighting battles behind the scenes. And it doesn’t help the squad, it doesn’t you as a manager or a coaching staff to get that cohesion on the pitch, that camaraderie, that togetherness you need to be a success.”

In the weeks after Stoke dropped out of the top-flight, both Joe Allen and Moritz Bauer signed new deals, although it is unknown whether the contracts restored their top-flight terms. 

When asked to repeat his claim about player wages at Stoke, Philips said: “From what I believe that is the case, but you’ve got to be very careful about the way you structure deals for these players.

“From our point of view, if you are going to do it with three or four players then you have to do it with the majority of the squad to keep that morale and cohesion you need in the squad.”

Stoke finished a troubled first season back in the Championship after a decade as a top-flight club in 16th place.”

 

Here’s some of their (alleged) wages last season 

 

 

8D94395B-5667-4532-9C13-C1740DE7A240.png

2E9AF821-2F0C-4EB8-BCE1-66F7F99AF7DC.png

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8 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I don't know…there was a programme on about 10 years ago (Bryan Robson was on it) and it was discussing that exactly. Usually foreign, buying lower league clubs and basically stripping them of all their assets. 

Did it mention people from Jordan, specifically..?

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14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Apparently Bolton only needed one signatory of one of the parties to finalise the takeover deal as of last Friday.

Then, over the weekend that signatory asked for £250k just to put their name to the deal.

Where does this greed come from? I really despair sometimes at what our society has become. 

For those asking why Bolton are getting 14 days, I assume it's because they are very close to a deal and also because in the meantime they are at least fulfilling their fixtures. Bury had missed six fixtures and it was becoming unrealistic for them to fit those rearranged fixtures into a condensed season. 

Bolton are calling off games due to player fatigue, how is that fulfilling fixtures when they have only 5 pros.

Bury weren’t given a chance by the league to play a game, kept calling them off whilst Bolton keep losing money and players but can carry on. Been at least 6 months to sort this deal but keeps getting called off. Just think Bolton and Bury which can we let go and the EFL decide Bury for not ex Prem.

Why didn’t the EFL let Bury play and get some money in. Instead just left them to die, personally think it’s double standards by the league.

if Bury had 3 buyers last night why not let them try to buy the club.

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Many people would scream No

But Simon Jordan is the man the EFL should employ as their head

Thing is, it's a members club and I'm afraid Jon Lansdown tweeting about how gutted he is Bury have gone under rings a bit hollow with me. Let's see if him and his Dad via Mark Ashton lobby for more scrutiny over how owners run their clubs in the EFL. I don't think that's going to happen somehow...

Simon Jordan isn't a bad shout btw, I'm just not convinced he'd be able to get the members to change their ways.

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36 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I had a pretty bad feeling looking from the outside about their new owner who brought them this summer, once Hoyle sold up- due to ill health or whatever.

 

26 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Blimey didn’t realise their was any problems there

I Missed that too

 

This may be idle chat , but a bloke in the pub is a season ticket holder at ‘Uddersfield. We were talking about the problems at Bury & Bolton and he mentioned about his club.

As this well know Hoyle has had health problems and sold the club. The new guy has a reputation for failed businesses and the view from his guy is that the owner is using Huddersfield to prop up his failing businesses.

May be complete bullshit

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13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

:thumbsup:

Former Stoke City coach Kevin Phillips has claimed some players retained their Premier League wages after relegation, a decision which he believes damaged morale at the club. 

Phillips , the former Sunderland, Southampton and West Brom striker, was part of Gary Rowett’s backroom team at Stoke until the manager was sacked in January following a difficult eight months at the club. 

But during a discussion on BBC Radio 5 Live about the problems facing team when they are relegated, Phillips said it was something he had seen at Stoke City last summer

He explained: “In terms of pay when teams come down, where players are having 40 per cent to 50 per cent cuts in their wages, we experienced this at Stoke.

“Straight away there was a rift within the squad because three or four players were put straight back on their Premier League contracts just to keep them at the club for this season.

“But there were other players who were not given their Premier League money, so straight away you’re fighting battles behind the scenes. And it doesn’t help the squad, it doesn’t you as a manager or a coaching staff to get that cohesion on the pitch, that camaraderie, that togetherness you need to be a success.”

In the weeks after Stoke dropped out of the top-flight, both Joe Allen and Moritz Bauer signed new deals, although it is unknown whether the contracts restored their top-flight terms. 

When asked to repeat his claim about player wages at Stoke, Philips said: “From what I believe that is the case, but you’ve got to be very careful about the way you structure deals for these players.

“From our point of view, if you are going to do it with three or four players then you have to do it with the majority of the squad to keep that morale and cohesion you need in the squad.”

Stoke finished a troubled first season back in the Championship after a decade as a top-flight club in 16th place.”

 

Here’s some of their (alleged) wages last season 

 

 

8D94395B-5667-4532-9C13-C1740DE7A240.png

2E9AF821-2F0C-4EB8-BCE1-66F7F99AF7DC.png

That's over £3/4M a WEEK just with those listed! No wonder they could be in trouble. Just shy of £40M a year and that's before you add the rest of the squad. 

WOW!! 

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8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Many people would scream No

But Simon Jordan is the man the EFL should employ as their head

That's a great shout Bob but I can't see the EFL doing it as he might well go public on something they've been tolerating for years. They would be scared of the bloke.

Out of interest, would our own Mark Ashton have any part in this as isn't he on the EFL board nowadays?

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1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

That's over £3/4M a WEEK just with those listed! No wonder they could be in trouble. Just shy of £40M a year and that's before you add the rest of the squad. 

WOW!! 

Shows you need to have a good, clear , strict , ‘exit plan’ , should we ever get promoted , in anticipation of relegation from the prem 

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27 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Apparently Bolton only needed one signatory of one of the parties to finalise the takeover deal as of last Friday.

Then, over the weekend that signatory asked for £250k just to put their name to the deal.

Where does this greed come from? I really despair sometimes at what our society has become. 

For those asking why Bolton are getting 14 days, I assume it's because they are very close to a deal and also because in the meantime they are at least fulfilling their fixtures. Bury had missed six fixtures and it was becoming unrealistic for them to fit those rearranged fixtures into a condensed season. 

Bolton are getting 14 days because it’s how the rules work. The notice of expulsion is a two-week notice. Bury’s ran out on Friday, and was extended until Tuesday.

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23 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Did it mention people from Jordan, specifically..?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2015875/Bryan-Robson-caught-dodgy-deals-sting.html

Sorry…was that a whoosh moment for me? :facepalm: They seem to preferring a slow painful death…

Edited by exAtyeoMax
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44 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of company business , CVAs , Liquidation , purchasing debt etc 

But reading those who do , on here , and listening to pieces on radio and in press etc I would say if some criminal conduct has not gone on it must run very close

Also , The fact that the EFL are obliged to check funding of new owner within 10 days of taking ownership and yet still havnt done so with Dale 8/9 months later is incredible 

They were probably just waiting for Dale to "sell" Gigg Lane to his son in law for sufficient to bail them out! :grr:

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We've been sent this heartfelt message from a Bury fan.

Sadly they didn't leave a name, but I couldn't not post it.

From the times when i first watched the club in the manny road end at a stupidly young age moaning about how **** we were (my first ever game), to the times when Liam Robinson and David Lee were dazzling us, travelling to Bolton at both grounds for the glorious (and some not so) derbies, watching Lucketti, Butler, Johnson and so many other stars, missing the promotion match as season ticket holders, listening to the match in the swan and then somehow blagging our way into the players bar after the promotion ceremony with Stan Ternant and Sam Ellis to celebrate going up with the team, beating City at Maine Rd and seeing a fan tear up his season ticket, the volcano hot coffees in the main stand, the great songs, the familiar faces, the moments celebrating with Neville Neville, the realisation I should have worn thicker socks and gloves on another Tuesday night being snowed on as my season ticket seat was at the front of I block and had no real cover from the wintry weather. The celebrations, the defeats, the highs, the lows. The 'what the' moment as Baichung Bhutia seemed to cling to the referees legs at Blackpool in his debut like he didn’t quite know the rules, the rivalry with Rochdale, watching us play at a old Trafford, eating some god awful food at some truly great grounds, the annual trek to Radcliffe for the friendly. Wondering how Peter Swan could have such a large turning circle, to Ryan Lowe, to the Barmy Army, to :laugh: Hugh Eaves funded it how??? To some stunning goals, to the hoof it upfield straight from kick off, to the chants of Brazil, it’s just like watching Brazil as the ball spent five minutes in the air being headed back and forth. To the joy of hugging random fans in a big piley on as we belted in the winner vs Dale to trudging home after losing on a Tuesday night away to Plymouth. To all the past players and staff and fans I salute you. All those moments are now lost to time, never to be felt again in the same way

Edited by Super
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For those of you interested and who like David Conn the journo, read his book - The Beautiful Game. 

It was what sparked my interest in football finances / football business. 

Simon Jordan's autobiography is very good too, and for those if you who think he’s a suntanned knobhead, you may change your mind. I did. 

Back to Conn, his explanation of David Dein (Arsenal) removing the 2.5% director dividend maximum partly led to Irving Scholar (Spurs) using the holding company method as a way of getting money out of football clubs and therefore it’s attractiveness to outside investors. 

The day of the local wealthy businessman owning his local club for a long term gain of small amounts was over. Enter Abramovic etc. Not all have been bad, appears the late Leicester owner was a good guy, but it has led to money finding itself a way out of football quicker than before and leaving debt and devastation in some cases behind. 

Don’t blame Sky for it all. That is too easy and unfair. They are part of the problem, but they aren’t the ones overspending. That’s the clubs / owners and decision makers like Dein before!!!

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27 minutes ago, Super said:

We've been sent this heartfelt message from a Bury fan.

Sadly they didn't leave a name, but I couldn't not post it.

From the times when i first watched the club in the manny road end at a stupidly young age moaning about how **** we were (my first ever game), to the times when Liam Robinson and David Lee were dazzling us, travelling to Bolton at both grounds for the glorious (and some not so) derbies, watching Lucketti, Butler, Johnson and so many other stars, missing the promotion match as season ticket holders, listening to the match in the swan and then somehow blagging our way into the players bar after the promotion ceremony with Stan Ternant and Sam Ellis to celebrate going up with the team, beating City at Maine Rd and seeing a fan tear up his season ticket, the volcano hot coffees in the main stand, the great songs, the familiar faces, the moments celebrating with Neville Neville, the realisation I should have worn thicker socks and gloves on another Tuesday night being snowed on as my season ticket seat was at the front of I block and had no real cover from the wintry weather. The celebrations, the defeats, the highs, the lows. The 'what the' moment as Baichung Bhutia seemed to cling to the referees legs at Blackpool in his debut like he didn’t quite know the rules, the rivalry with Rochdale, watching us play at a old Trafford, eating some god awful food at some truly great grounds, the annual trek to Radcliffe for the friendly. Wondering how Peter Swan could have such a large turning circle, to Ryan Lowe, to the Barmy Army, to :laugh: Hugh Eaves funded it how??? To some stunning goals, to the hoof it upfield straight from kick off, to the chants of Brazil, it’s just like watching Brazil as the ball spent five minutes in the air being headed back and forth. To the joy of hugging random fans in a big piley on as we belted in the winner vs Dale to trudging home after losing on a Tuesday night away to Plymouth. To all the past players and staff and fans I salute you. All those moments are now lost to time, never to be felt again in the same way

Like tears in the rain.

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48 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

That's over £3/4M a WEEK just with those listed! No wonder they could be in trouble. Just shy of £40M a year and that's before you add the rest of the squad. 

WOW!! 

Yes, but Stoke are one of the richest clubs in the EFL, so this isn’t a problem for them as long as the Coates family remain in charge (no idea how FFP works with this mind!)

....... an article from last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/richest-football-league-clubs-based-13285535.amp

Interestingly, we’re listed as 5th (4th now that Villa have been promoted)

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The sooner football clubs are treated as community assets first and businesses second the better.

Far too many clubs down the league's getting financially squeezed out and closer to the abyss each season.

It's starting to reflect society, the 1% sitting pretty not giving a shit and everyone else having to graft and hustle just to keep going.

Can't thank SL and associates enough for keeping us competitive with a sensible and structured approach.

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Debbie Jeavens trying to explain why the EFL had not checked the funding capability of Steve Dale starts mumbling

I’ve said , we do need to learn lessons’

Who do we hear that from , all the time , ....oh yes the head of Bristol City Council , and numerous NHS Authorities

Incompetent CEOs abound

Nobody ever says ‘Yes , Sorry it’s not good enough and it won’t happen again’

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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41 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Yes, but Stoke are one of the richest clubs in the EFL, so this isn’t a problem for them as long as the Coates family remain in charge (no idea how FFP works with this mind!)

....... an article from last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/richest-football-league-clubs-based-13285535.amp

Interestingly, we’re listed as 5th (4th now that Villa have been promoted)

That list is bobbins.

Have you see who is 15th?

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Any news on whether a phoenix club is being set up?

While Bury technically still exist, and can apply to enter the Football pyramid at a lower stage, there's no way anyone would want to buy them when they're out of professional football.

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2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Theres an interesting piece by Kevin Phillips where he explains that Stoke gave some players Bauer and Allen incl new contracts on relegation to stop them pushing to leave , as said players were very unhappy that their wages were due to drop due to relegation clauses !

Well if they'd done their jobs better they wouldn't have been relegated!

In my opinion, football won't change its ways in this country until parachute payments are abolished.  Then proper management of mid-level clubs will have to happen.  That includes promotion pay boosts and relegation pay cuts in all contracts to ensure that should the drop occur, they can still manage financially.

Until this happens, clubs will continue to financially mismanage themselves.  Yes, it creates a divide at the top of the prem and makes breaking into it difficult, but Leicester managed it well enough, so it's not impossible.

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2 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Any news on whether a phoenix club is being set up?

While Bury technically still exist, and can apply to enter the Football pyramid at a lower stage, there's no way anyone would want to buy them when they're out of professional football.

Different structure and times maybe, and it probably wouldn't do them much good in the long run but it is worth noting that clubs voted out of Football League during days of re-election didn't necessarily fold immediately.

Hell even Accrington managed to struggle on for 4 seasons before eventually it went in 1966. Some who withdrew in League early days are still in existence as original clubs- but those circs and times were different, probably won't be applicable here.

Phoenix club I am sure would be on the agenda when/if the current one cease to exist.

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3 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Any news on whether a phoenix club is being set up?

While Bury technically still exist, and can apply to enter the Football pyramid at a lower stage, there's no way anyone would want to buy them when they're out of professional football.

I would guess they'll go through a range of emotions first, grief, anger, sorrow, reflection etc...

All being well, their supporters can galvanise over the rest of this season and if they can, form something local and competitive in whatever division they can next season.

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12 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Well if they'd done their jobs better they wouldn't have been relegated!

In my opinion, football won't change its ways in this country until parachute payments are abolished.  Then proper management of mid-level clubs will have to happen.  That includes promotion pay boosts and relegation pay cuts in all contracts to ensure that should the drop occur, they can still manage financially.

Until this happens, clubs will continue to financially mismanage themselves.  Yes, it creates a divide at the top of the prem and makes breaking into it difficult, but Leicester managed it well enough, so it's not impossible.

Most clubs already do this- 40-50% is about the most you can get away with realistically I'd say.

To implement £1 of wage drop for £1 of TV drop would be a nice equivalence but we're talking 90% and more here!

Stoke obviously haven't done the 40-50% wage drop for all but it's worth looking at just how big the TV revenue gap for a typical Championship and PL club is- nobody would sign for a club if told that you'd have a wage cut of 90% in the event of the drop! Would it even be enforceable, what would the PFA say etc?

One thing that parachute payments should be though is conditional, on proper sales, wage cuts, if necessary to pay players but not pay them eg high earners- keeps a club relatively financially stable but the club don't benefit on the pitch, make certain players ineligible in the League maybe.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Different structure and times maybe, and it probably wouldn't do them much good in the long run but it is worth noting that clubs voted out of Football League during days of re-election didn't necessarily fold immediately.

Southport were elected out of the football league (in favour of Wigan) in 1978, but still exist, still have a stadium and still play home games every other Saturday.  It doesn't have to be the end for Bury.  Hope it isn't.

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7 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Southport were elected out of the football league (in favour of Wigan) in 1978, but still exist, still have a stadium and still play home games every other Saturday.  It doesn't have to be the end for Bury.  Hope it isn't.

One thing bugging me , though it seems irrelevant now, some weeks back I’m sure I heard in a discussion about Burys woes that I heard Bury were paying some of their players , and forwards were mentioned £10k a week, last season , in League Two !

Am I imagining this or has anyone else heard or read about their wages last year

(Noticeably Jermaine Beckford was there and yesterday announced retirement )

If true ........it beggars belief 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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11 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Southport were elected out of the football league (in favour of Wigan) in 1978, but still exist, still have a stadium and still play home games every other Saturday.  It doesn't have to be the end for Bury.  Hope it isn't.

Indeed, I believe Barrow are another still at original ground and in original form. Some clubs can survive it, but I fear for Bury- at least in their current form.

Don't know if Gigg Lane can be made an asset of community value or if that's gone- read something about complex property deals and Malta and British Virgin Islands so it sounds bleak.

In general terms.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html

Bleak picture, from end of season.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

One thing bugging me , though it seems irrelevant now, some weeks back I’m sure I heard in a discussion about Burys woes that I heard Bury were paying some of their players , and forwards were mentioned £10k a week, last season , in League Two !

Am I imagining this or has anyone else heard or read about their wages last year

(Noticeably Jermaine Beckford was there and yesterday announced retirement )

If true ........it beggars belief 

Two seasons ago I tweeted “Bury are going for it big time!”, some of the players they signed looked out of kilter with their standing!  So wouldn’t surprise me. 

Re contracts. Jack Rodwell’s contract allegedly had a 12 month wage reduction deferral in case they went straight back up. Hence he was still on £70k per week when they got relegated to Lg1 😱

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Apologies for the source but couldn't find it elsewhere but here or Irish equivalent.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/9810301/bury-efl-hope-deal-expelled-latest/

SJ Global International basically said the EFL misunderstood preparations to transfer funds to purchase the club by 9am this morning??

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Always assumed Anderson left in the summer, but you could well be right.

I remember in fact two 1-1 draws with them, one in March 1999 on a night game and the aforementioned August 1999 one. I also remember "Boring Boring Bury!" rang around the ground at varied intervals.

Agreed- would've been inconceivable.

Agreed- think it's a number of factors too- disaster capitalism, upward flow of cash to PL, allowing any old idiot/asset stripper/fantasist to buy a club subject to a very straight forward "Test". Not that it was even in his interest of course given what we know about his past, but did Dale even have the cash available to him to pay off debt had he been so inclined? Doubt it! EFL considered him fit and proper though...need a serious inquiry into EFL.

I fear it could be Bolton and then a domino effect with a number of clubs who are close to the line- hope I am wholly wrong.

May be the night game I’m thinking of in all fairness - it’s a while back and my memory is somewhat hazy...

And my one big hope from all of this is it sets a fire under the question of what exactly the EFL is doing when I comes to assessing the credibility of potential owners.

It is pretty clear from the detail now out in the open the pair who traded Bury for a pound were both clearly not interested in the long term stability and survival of the club; if this is obvious now, why wasn’t it then?

And while I hold no love for the blue few down the road, you look at the situation they now find themselves in, and you wonder how carefully the EFL assessed the intentions and capacity of their owners too - I may have zero time for them, and hope the head down and loiter in league two forever, but you have to be concerned at a number of clubs with stewards I’m unsure are aiming to maintain their involvement long term, the sags included.

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Apologies for the source but couldn't find it elsewhere but here or Irish equivalent.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/9810301/bury-efl-hope-deal-expelled-latest/

SJ Global International basically said the EFL misunderstood preparations to transfer funds to purchase the club by 9am this morning??

Interesting to read, but I guess there has to be a final deadline at some point otherwise there could be reasons for extensions for weeks on end?

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8 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

**** the EFL! 

Why were Bolton allowed to start the season but not Bury?

I believe it was because their rumoured takeover was deemed more credible.

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51 minutes ago, phantom said:

Interesting to read, but I guess there has to be a final deadline at some point otherwise there could be reasons for extensions for weeks on end?

Potential echos of history though.

The article I posted contains the line:

Quote

AN APPEAL to block Bury’s EFL expulsion is set to begin amid shock claims the ruling body misunderstood preparations to transfer funds to buy the club by 9am this morning.

SJ Global International were in place to buy the stricken Shakers and were in the process of agreeing the best way to transfer £7million in funds.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2369959/Scouse-lads-aim-to-bring-glory-days-back-to-Accrington.html

An old article I found but similarities in line/concept...of course this situation a lot less certainty.

Quote

It was on March 6, 1962, that Accrington's four remaining directors sent a letter of resignation to the League, and in doing so consigned this historic football region to 40 years in the wilderness. Stanley became the first club in Football League history who were unable to fulfil their fixtures.

At a creditors' meeting on the previous evening, it was established that of the £43,566 owed by the club, just £4,000 was needed in the short term to stay alive.

Two days after the fateful letter was received at the League's headquarters, a man walked into the club's office and put a bag on the table with £10,000 cash inside.

"You can borrow that interest free," he said, "and pay it back whenever you can manage it. I don't want to see this club go under."

Given the opportunity to grant a reprieve to Accrington Stanley, the League's management committee chose to accept the original letter of resignation.

Some potential real, shit governance, similarities here.

Sure, the 2 situations and eras are different...but the League have form here!

First line of first article note, EFL have indeed confirmed no right of appeal.

Of course I agree that the EFL cannot extend indefinitely but this way feels like it wasn't the only one, there was surely a better way?

For Accrington, arguably though read Bury. For Harvey and (though not perhaps fully her fault) Jevans, read Lord and Hardaker.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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4 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I believe it was because their rumoured takeover was deemed more credible.

I just think had Bolton not of begun the season then they also would have been expelled by now.

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3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

One thing bugging me , though it seems irrelevant now, some weeks back I’m sure I heard in a discussion about Burys woes that I heard Bury were paying some of their players , and forwards were mentioned £10k a week, last season , in League Two !

Am I imagining this or has anyone else heard or read about their wages last year

(Noticeably Jermaine Beckford was there and yesterday announced retirement )

If true ........it beggars belief 

 

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Two seasons ago I tweeted “Bury are going for it big time!”, some of the players they signed looked out of kilter with their standing!  So wouldn’t surprise me. 

Re contracts. Jack Rodwell’s contract allegedly had a 12 month wage reduction deferral in case they went straight back up. Hence he was still on £70k per week when they got relegated to Lg1 😱

I wouldn't imagine that Mickey Naynard would have worked for peanuts, he would have wanted compensation for any accent his child picked up for a start.

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