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Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)


Judda
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2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Nick Mason from the Floyd one of the investors - What more could you want !

Defensively they should improve, especially with the improvised line of players putting up a barrier in front of a free kick specialist.

What? We conceded? Nick, any ideas?

All in all you need a-nother.....

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Isn't the EFL just the clubs self-regulating?? Because if it's just the clubs self-regulating, it's hardly surprising that the rules are lax.

Business owners won't vote for tougher regulations with penalties, controls over how they spend their money or constraints on who they can sell their businesses to when they've got bored  or run out of money? Maybe some tweaks but nothing of the kind that's needed.

Businesses go bust all the time - it's the way capitalism works. If we don't want clubs to go bust on a regular basis, or for them to be subject to asset stripping or other predatory practices that are part of the rough and tumble of any other sector... if instead we want them to be treated like community assets, then we need legislation. 

We need an independent regulator, empowered in law to manage participation in the football league so that there's genuine FFP, rules that work to provide ownership oversight and to provide protection for communities of fans who - unlike in other business sectors, don't shop around. 

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8 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

Isn't the EFL just the clubs self-regulating?? Because if it's just the clubs self-regulating, it's hardly surprising that the rules are lax.

Business owners won't vote for tougher regulations with penalties, controls over how they spend their money or constraints on who they can sell their businesses to when they've got bored  or run out of money? Maybe some tweaks but nothing of the kind that's needed.

Businesses go bust all the time - it's the way capitalism works. If we don't want clubs to go bust on a regular basis, or for them to be subject to asset stripping or other predatory practices that are part of the rough and tumble of any other sector... if instead we want them to be treated like community assets, then we need legislation. 

We need an independent regulator, empowered in law to manage participation in the football league so that there's genuine FFP, rules that work to provide ownership oversight and to provide protection for communities of fans who - unlike in other business sectors, don't shop around. 

As I understand it, the clubs agree on the rules/regulations and they appoint the  EFL to administer those rules/regulations.

Obviously, there are regulations that come from outside the EFL but its still down to the clubs to interpret them and instruct the EFL to administer them - stand to be corrected but thats how I see it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmmmmm...

EFL meeting at midday.

Here's MY hope of what will be announced- obviously a reversal and saving but also, a bit of a wishlist:

  1. Bury saving.
  2. A FULL investigation into both Bolton and Bury, with legal action against the likes of Anderson, Dale, and yes Harvey etc if failings applicable and punishable by law are found.
  3. New Independent body for EFL financial regulation- TRULY independent.
  4. Changes to certain FFP loopholes, which should never have been lifted in the first place.
  5. Perhaps dare I dream, an investigation into certain clubs who exploited said loopholes- a full and independent one at that, with FFP submissions retrospectively adjusted and points docked if necessary- with the punishment for Aston Villa either to be applied by PL or kept in reserve for if/when they return.

Obviously the first one is the main one but any of the other 4 would be excellent and a very nice bonus. Long overdue in the case of 3 and 4 as well!

That would be nice

I have a feeling its more likely to be along the lines of - "Lunch was great! poached quail eggs salad, roast venison with sauteed red cabbage and parmentier potatoes all washed down with a nice Chataeu Latour at £600 per bottle."

 

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4 minutes ago, cityal said:

That would be nice

I have a feeling its more likely to be along the lines of - "Lunch was great! poached quail eggs salad, roast venison with sauteed red cabbage and parmentier potatoes all washed down with a nice Chataeu Latour at £600 per bottle."

 

Sadly, will closer to that than my wishlist I fear...

Still, the first one on my list WILL be addressed, I'm sure of it. The rest are for another day.

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Football supporters everywhere were shocked and saddened when on the 27th August Bury FC were expelled from the EFL.

A 134 year old institution gone. Generations of fans left without the cornerstone of their community that so many of us take for granted.

We fans often revel in the tribalism of our game but the deep love we have for our own club serves to strengthen solidarity when a crisis emerges.

In the past couple of days there has been an outpouring of compassion, empathy and sorrow from hundreds of thousands of fans across the country and throughout the leagues.

This weekend be grateful that your club has a game to play, that you can continue your matchday rituals with friends and family, like every other Saturday. Soak up the experience and appreciate it... and on the 27th minute, the FSA is calling for supporters everywhere to applaud for one minute in a nationwide display of solidarity for Bury.

Why a minute of applause on the 27th minute? Because on 27th August a football club was expelled from the league for the first time in 27 years. Let's show that we care and we are angry that this situation has been allowed to happen.

The FSA is lobbying hard to protect our clubs from unscrupulous or incompetent owners - conflicts of interest have to be removed as owners have shown they cannot regulate themselves and our clubs deserve special protections more in line with those afforded to listed buildings. Football clubs are not just another business.

We'll need your support for that campaign in the weeks and months ahead, but for this weekend, let's start by showing supporter solidarity with Bury fans on the 27th minute.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmmmmm...

EFL meeting at midday.

Here's MY hope of what will be announced- obviously a reversal and saving but also, a bit of a wishlist:

  1. Bury saving.
  2. A FULL investigation into both Bolton and Bury, with legal action against the likes of Anderson, Dale, and yes Harvey etc if failings applicable and punishable by law are found.
  3. New Independent body for EFL financial regulation- TRULY independent.
  4. Changes to certain FFP loopholes, which should never have been lifted in the first place.
  5. Perhaps dare I dream, an investigation into certain clubs who exploited said loopholes- a full and independent one at that, with FFP submissions retrospectively adjusted and points docked if necessary- with the punishment for Aston Villa either to be applied by PL or kept in reserve for if/when they return.

Obviously the first one is the main one but any of the other 4 would be excellent and a very nice bonus. Long overdue in the case of 3 and 4 as well!

There is a lot of regulation that SHOULD be now enforced on all EFL clubs as a lesson learned from this. There are genuine fears that Bury could be the tip of the iceberg.

However can you see a situation where clubs vote for that? For example if you introduced far more stringent (and sensible) rules on allowable expenditure and loss making relative to GENUINE turnover where would that leave us? Is that any chance of us reaching the Premiership in the next ten years gone? Do we create a closed shop Premiership in all but name and a Championship where the relegated Premiership sides have even more clout than they do now? Even the bloody Gas are managing to spunk £65K a week they don’t have!!

Perhaps things would right themselves in time if the EFL bit the bullet and the game would be longer term better for it?

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31 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

As I understand it, the clubs agree on the rules/regulations and they appoint the  EFL to administer those rules/regulations.

I've just had a look at the EFL's Mem and Arts registered at Companies House.

Each club in the football league holds a share in The Football League Ltd. for as long as they remain in the league. Six of nine board members are appointed are club represenatives: 3 from the Championship, 2 from L1 and 1 from L2.

In order to change any of the rules, a majority of clubs need to vote for it...

...which is why we are where we are and why things won't change without external - governmental - intervention.

I love the way the FSA in @phantom's post, above, are suggesting parallels between listed buildings and clubs. Owners of listed buildings can't just do what they want with them, and the same should apply to club owners.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

I've just had a look at the EFL's Mem and Arts registered at Companies House.

Each club in the football league holds a share in The Football League Ltd. for as long as they remain in the league. Six of nine board members are appointed are club represenatives: 3 from the Championship, 2 from L1 and 1 from L2.

In order to change any of the rules, a majority of clubs need to vote for it...

...which is why we are where we are and why things won't change without external - governmental - intervention.

I love the way the FSA in @phantom's post, above, are suggesting parallels between listed buildings and clubs. Owners of listed buildings can't just do what they want with them, and the same should apply to club owners.

 

 

Can't see the turkeys voting for Christmas..

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17 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

There is a lot of regulation that SHOULD be now enforced on all EFL clubs as a lesson learned from this. There are genuine fears that Bury could be the tip of the iceberg.

However can you see a situation where clubs vote for that? For example if you introduced far more stringent (and sensible) rules on allowable expenditure and loss making relative to GENUINE turnover where would that leave us? Is that any chance of us reaching the Premiership in the next ten years gone? Do we create a closed shop Premiership in all but name and a Championship where the relegated Premiership sides have even more clout than they do now? Even the bloody Gas are managing to spunk £65K a week they don’t have!!

Perhaps things would right themselves in time if the EFL bit the bullet and the game would be longer term better for it?

Agreed- a lot of regulation, both existing that isn't properly enforced, upgraded and fresh all needed now. Agree about the tip of the iceberg risk too, a report a few years ago which I'll try to find, said something about 3/4 of EFL clubs being in trouble or maybe over the next 10 years.- may well have been referring to mainly the bottom 2 divisions.

Rules in Championship may well be okay, it's the enforcement or lack of that's the issue I think. Likewise 55% of turnover in League Two and 60% in League One seems okay...but chairman can then put in loads and it classes as turnover so that one needs a change for one! Could keep existing rules albeit amended and tightened, and additionally implement monthly monitoring of finances by the EFL of the 72 and the first sign a club hits financial distress, there is an automatic embargo- as a holding position, they cannot make the situation worse. That is one way- you are right though a balance needs to be struck which is why I am wary of wage caps or % of turnover split, at this level for example- it goes just eg £100m PL, £41m for year one parachute payments and say £7-8m for a typical Championship club. The £41m also gets some of the revenues a Championship club might get- these payments need reform as well, or some conditionality added and I've thought this for a long time. Could also take some from parachute payments and have it filter down to the bottom 2 divisions, whose need is pretty desperate it seems- a redistribution of that bit of redistribution.

Think no doubt reform is necessary and overdue but they need to be very careful for the reasons that you state.

The other possible law of unintended consequence, is make them too tight and too strait jacketed, and good investors may be more reluctant, may give up- and Unfit and improper ones maybe some of the only ones who want to do it- Asset strippers, Fraudsters, Idiots to name 3...

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8 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

I've just had a look at the EFL's Mem and Arts registered at Companies House.

Each club in the football league holds a share in The Football League Ltd. for as long as they remain in the league. Six of nine board members are appointed are club represenatives: 3 from the Championship, 2 from L1 and 1 from L2.

In order to change any of the rules, a majority of clubs need to vote for it...

...which is why we are where we are and why things won't change without external - governmental - intervention.

I love the way the FSA in @phantom's post, above, are suggesting parallels between listed buildings and clubs. Owners of listed buildings can't just do what they want with them, and the same should apply to club owners.

 

 

You will never get government intervention.  FIFA hates it when governments try to interfere with football affairs.

If anyone is going to intervene it would have to be the FA...

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1 minute ago, Loderingo said:

You will never get government intervention.

No - I agree it looks like a long shot! Certainly need more than just poor Bury going under for government to do anything about it. Looks like there have been periodic calls from government for better football governance for over 50 years!

But I think hoping that the EFL will come up with meaningful reforms is even more unlikely.

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1 hour ago, cityal said:

I have a feeling its more likely to be along the lines of - "Lunch was great! poached quail eggs salad, roast venison with sauteed red cabbage and parmentier potatoes all washed down with a nice Chataeu Latour at £600 per bottle."

By the time that bottle had been bought and sold to each other several times it would be worth millions! All counting towards turnover for FFP purposes, of course 

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34 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

By the time that bottle had been bought and sold to each other several times it would be worth millions! All counting towards turnover for FFP purposes, of course 

More on that:

The first time it was resold for £2000

The next time they resold the bottle on the basis that it was the actual Chateau Latour and it sold for £150M

An independent Auditor came in and said that seemed "fair"

Derby and Villa got away with it

Meeting outcome: 6 game bans for Famara Dhiedhou and Bailey Wright

Edited by cityal
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Quote

5.3 Subject to the provisions of the Articles of Association and these Regulations, The League may from time to time and upon such terms and conditions as it may think fit admit any Association Football club as a member or expel or accept the retirement of any member from The League provided always that no member may be expelled without the sanction of a special resolution passed at an Annual or Extraordinary General Meeting of The League. Any casual vacancy occurring in the membership of The League may be filled by the Board.

Hmm...

Does this mean an AGM or in this instance, an EGM required for expulsion I wonder?

Presumably by "the League" it means the 72 clubs as opposed to merely the board- or would the board suffice for such a decision, if an insolvency event happens?

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Said it the other day but worth reiterating- smacks a LOT of Accrington Stanley 1962, this final phase.

Quote

An international consortium has £7m in the bank and is ready to complete a takeover of Bury, if the EFL agrees to reinstate the club, Sky Sports News understands.

Gustavo Ferreira, a partner in a gold mining company, is the man behind the proposed takeover and is trying to get the EFL to rescind its decision to expel the club from the English Football League.

It is understood the EFL would be unlikely to change its decision at this point, however it is possible that an injunction may be served on the football league if Ferreira's request for it to explore the possibility of overturning the decision goes unanswered.

The consortium says it has shown the EFL proof of funds and was in negotiations to buy the club on Tuesday night, before Bury were removed from the Football League.

The EFL made the decision to expel Bury after a proposed takeover by C&N Sporting Risk fell through on Tuesday afternoon, just hours before the 5pm deadline.

That was as of yesterday.

Accrington Stanley 1962.

Quote

It was on March 6, 1962, that Accrington's four remaining directors sent a letter of resignation to the League, and in doing so consigned this historic football region to 40 years in the wilderness. Stanley became the first club in Football League history who were unable to fulfil their fixtures.

At a creditors' meeting on the previous evening, it was established that of the £43,566 owed by the club, just £4,000 was needed in the short term to stay alive.

Two days after the fateful letter was received at the League's headquarters, a man walked into the club's office and put a bag on the table with £10,000 cash inside.

"You can borrow that interest free," he said, "and pay it back whenever you can manage it. I don't want to see this club go under."

Given the opportunity to grant a reprieve to Accrington Stanley, the League's management committee chose to accept the original letter of resignation.

EFL though technically a different organisation as Football League all one thing then, and not exactly identical circumstances, have YET AGAIN done the wrong thing by a club with potential for being saved at the last!!

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23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Said it the other day but worth reiterating- smacks a LOT of Accrington Stanley 1962, this final phase.

That was as of yesterday.

Accrington Stanley 1962.

EFL though technically a different organisation as Football League all one thing then, and not exactly identical circumstances, have YET AGAIN done the wrong thing by a club with potential for being saved at the last!!

So Accrington Stanley went bust for less than £1m in today’s money. How many EFL clubs are “only” £1m in the red as of today?!!!

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6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

So Accrington Stanley went bust for less than £1m in today’s money. How many EFL clubs are “only” £1m in the red as of today?!!!

Once adjusted for inflation etc.

Yep. Such a relatively low number, according to an inflation calculator- well fill your boots. That's the total debt, but the Football League basically was a case of computer said no despite the fact it'd have saved them and brought time.

https://www.officialdata.org/uk/inflation/1962?amount=43566

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