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Judda

Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)

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2 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

But are they? I know they're only just over 6 miles apart but Bolton's traditional rivals are Wigan. That rivalry extends beyond football. 

As someone who used to stay in a pub right next to Bury's  ground when I worked in greater Manchester, trust me when I say yes they are. 

Edited by BS3_RED
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20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Rovers really are missing a trick here (unless negotiations/bullying are already underway)

It’s the perfect opportunity for them to steal another ground and #### off out of Bristol..!

Plus the M6 is a longer road to find a parking space than Muller Road.

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2 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Plus the M6 is a longer road to find a parking space than Muller Road.

Perfect. They need lots more parking space to cater for them all. 

They could then all take a leisurely stroll to the ground, up the wrong side of the M6..!

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17 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Rovers really are missing a trick here (unless negotiations/bullying are already underway)

It’s the perfect opportunity for them to steal another ground and #### off out of Bristol..!

I’m sure once the pikeys hear that the ground is up for grabs they’ll be parking up their caravans on the centre circle 

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Bury and Bolton going bust because of non football people owners who have no right to own a club, THANK GOD THAT WE HAVE AN OWNER WHO IS ONE OF THE BEST STEVE LANSDOWN :clap::clapping::clap:

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48 minutes ago, myol'man said:

and remember that Phil Gartside wanted to create Premier League 1&2 with no promotion or relegation from the EFL.

Now we see why. 

Shame is, one week of the salary that the Chinese were going to pay Bale would save Bolton and Bury. 

Football is very broken. 

Edited by Southport Red
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4 minutes ago, foghornred said:

Bury and Bolton going bust because of non football people owners who have no right to own a club, THANK GOD THAT WE HAVE AN OWNER WHO IS ONE OF THE BEST STEVE LANSDOWN :clap::clapping::clap:

What is a football people owner?

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1 minute ago, Drew Peacock said:

What is a football people owner?

Someone who owns football people obvs. 

Do I have to explain EVERYTHING to you Droopy?

😀

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27 minutes ago, BS3_RED said:

Thats like saying the same in Bristol for City and the sags. Theyre the same...RIVALS. 

This is spot on. While Bolton fans don't want to see Bury go bust, there is most certainly no love lost between the 2 sets of supporters. A Bolton fan in work just wants to see his club survive, whatever league they're in.

Like BS3, I spend a lot of time in Manchester and work with both Bolton and Bury fans and they most certainly don't like each other. 

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I dont have sympathy for any team signing big names and paying shed loads of money like bolton did whilst in the prem and now are going to collapse. The fans were happy to attend games then, playing likes of Liverpool and arsenal but now they play bristol rovers fans (i use that term loosely) arent interested and the club still struggling after meltdown from the premier league. and paying people like jay jay okocha amongst others £50k a week and that was back then about 75k in todays football money(not real life inflation)

Edited by Redwhitepurple
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1 minute ago, Redwhitepurple said:

I dont have sympathy for any team signing big names and paying shed loads of money like bolton did whilst in the prem and now are going to collapse. The fans were happy to attend games then, playing likes of Liverpool and arsenal but now they play bristol rovers fans arent interested and the club still struggling after meltdown from the premiere league and paying people like jay jay okocha £50k a week and that was bag then about 75k in todays money

I do have sympathy for the fans.

Nobody wants to see another club go out of business, not matter how it occurred.

As we’ve been so close to folding ourselves, we can relate to their struggles in so many ways. Sad day for football this

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Lunch time news today; Bury are now selling tickets for Saturday's game v Doncaster! 👍

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1 hour ago, Up The City! said:

Why has a merger between Bolton and Bury not been mooted? Surely makes sense? 

Why didn’t we merge with rovers in 1982?

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4 minutes ago, 22A said:

Lunch time news today; Bury are now selling tickets for Saturday's game v Doncaster! 👍

Good job that they weren't due to play Bolton!

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4 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Why didn’t we merge with rovers in 1982?

From notes I made at the time;  in September 1980, Alan Dicks was dismissed after 13 years service. He had been the longest serving manager in the country, but the next 14 years would see eight managers at Ashton Gate.  Also at this time, the Chairman offered an open door to the Rovers'  board if they wished to discuss a merger as fans were staying away from two sinking ships, but nothing came of it.

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1 hour ago, Southport Red said:

Now we see why. 

Shame is, one week of the salary that the Chinese were going to pay Bale would save Bolton and Bury. 

Football is very broken. 

And will only get worse

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

Rovers really are missing a trick here (unless negotiations/bullying are already underway)

It’s the perfect opportunity for them to steal another ground and #### off out of Bristol..!

There will surely be furious, feverish, frenetic excitement in the heat and the sweat of the Tents this week as they await news of the latest football club going into administration and bankruptcy and they prepare to cry: "Bolton 2019!" along with Southampton 2009!, Chester 2010! Aldershot '92! Accrington Stanley '66! Portsmouth whatever year it was, Rangers 2012!, Huddersfield 2003!, and Leeds/Leicester/Hull, and of course, City 82.

Must be exhausting for them, but as we know, fiscal propriety and scrupulous boardroom and administrative conduct is what they are passionate about, known for around the football community and quite simply it is what they do. Along with the other thing what they always do.

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

Rovers really are missing a trick here (unless negotiations/bullying are already underway)

It’s the perfect opportunity for them to steal another ground and #### off out of Bristol..!

Gigg Lane would be ideal for a small club like the sags

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Careful because Rovers might surprise us all and get a middle eastern billionaire who owns a bank to finance them.

Edited by BigTone
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Think I heard the other day that Championship clubs have the worst debut in the football league. It’s alright splashing the cash but in the end you’re going to have to pay up froth what you’ve bought. 

I think we now live in a system that teaches that “ Credit makes the world go around “

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2 hours ago, BigTone said:

If it came down to it then why not ?

Exactly .... no matter how bad things are ... you can always find a use for a big tent

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1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

This is spot on. While Bolton fans don't want to see Bury go bust, there is most certainly no love lost between the 2 sets of supporters. A Bolton fan in work just wants to see his club survive, whatever league they're in.

Like BS3, I spend a lot of time in Manchester and work with both Bolton and Bury fans and they most certainly don't like each other. 

But if the only way to see his club survive was to merge? 

Whilst I get the rivalry, wouldn't that just be them cutting their nose off to spite their face? 

When you look at the teams that are in the conference, Notts County, Chesterfield etc, teams with a long football league history then it won't be long until Bury and Bolton are forgotten about.

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8 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

But if the only way to see his club survive was to merge? 

Whilst I get the rivalry, wouldn't that just be them cutting their nose off to spite their face? 

When you look at the teams that are in the conference, Notts County, Chesterfield etc, teams with a long football league history then it won't be long until Bury and Bolton are forgotten about.

With all due respect, you seem to be missing the point of football identity and tradition. Bury are Bury and Bolton are Bolton. If they merged, both clubs would essentially cease to exist. And if I was a fan of either club, I'd sooner watch an AFC Bolton/Bury in the Northern Counties league than some frankenstein outfit in League one.

Edited by Wanderingred
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All this talk of merging clubs in nonsense in my eyes. I'd rather then clubs went bust and then started at the bottom end of the Pyramid. 

If we went down that route, we'd have a league similar to that of Scotland, where there's few teams left to make up the numbers, and sides would have to play each other 4 times a season!

Football is all about local communities and historical relationships with their areas, not about merging and franchising football clubs.

The quicker the Premier League and all the obscene money associated with it can go bust, the better. Actually, no, let me reword that, the quicker the obscene transfer fees and salaries are gone...the better. I think the money that is coming in could be better utilized further down the lower level grassroots football, and the redevelopment of stadiums and infrastructure.

As a radical thought, wouldn't it be interesting if clubs could only spend wages proportional to their attendances? The clubs could still get their £130million sponsorship per year from being in the Premier league,  but they'd then have to use that money build up their stadium capacities, training complexes, youth team, coaching abilities etc.. but their spending of wages would only be relevant to their attendance levels. It might even encourage lower ticket prices to the fans as it'll be more beneficial for the club to have a 20,000 attendance each paying £5-£10, compared to £25 a head for an attendance of 12,000.

 

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This is a reflection of the gulf in football caused by the money going from TV into the Premier League. The weekly wage bill of either Man United or Man City, just 10 or so miles away, could probably wipe out all the debts of both Bolton & Bury.

Not surprising that debts are so bad in the Championship as clubs overextend in their promotion attempts, or unless clubs relegated from the Premier League are savvy about their contracts, they will be in trouble, parachute payments or not. And that can become a downward spiral of further debt and relegation.

If either club are lucky, they might be able to resurrect themselves like another of the original 12 Football League teams, Accrington Stanley. But that seems to require owners who care about the club AND know how to run the finances. They seem to be in short supply...

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Anyone who thinks 2 historic clubs can merge simply does not understand the basic premise of what being a fan is. 

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Boltons demise is a reflection of idiocy of the running of one of Englands most famous clubs! 

Burys demise is a reflection of a small town club who struggled to tread water with the likes of all the clubs they compete with in the area including Bolton! I know where my sympathies lay most.

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The thing about Bolton is, it's more of a puzzle.

Historic debts yes but something seriously doesn't add up there- losses, yes but not the levels mooted.

I can't think their wage bill soared in 2017/18, they were on a strict EFL wage limit for new signings, they didn't spend any fees, cash for Madine was £6m, the jump in TV money and solidarity payments/prize pool of several million...when set against their 2016/17 accounts, it seriously doesn't add up- their historic debt was seemingly written off so more questions then answers! Overspending? Not convinced it was so simple.

@REDOXO

Understand that element yet Bury overspent too- in the sense of well they had to have had,  or SHOULD have had to have had no more than 55% of turnover spent on wages- something clearly went very wrong there, with enforcement, oversight or loopholes! In theory, there is a limit of 55% of turnover to be spent on wages in League Two, unless an owner makes up the shortfall, wealthy owners can change this- was Dale loaning them loads of cash without proper care or guarantee to therefore get them in this mess?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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51 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The thing about Bolton is, it's more of a puzzle.

Historic debts yes but something seriously doesn't add up there- losses, yes but not the levels mooted.

I can't think their wage bill soared in 2017/18, they were on a strict EFL wage limit for new signings, they didn't spend any fees, cash for Madine was £6m, the jump in TV money and solidarity payments/prize pool of several million...when set against their 2016/17 accounts, it seriously doesn't add up- their historic debt was seemingly written off so more questions then answers! Overspending? Not convinced it was so simple.

@REDOXO

Understand that element yet Bury overspent too- in the sense of well they had to have had,  or SHOULD have had to have had no more than 55% of turnover spent on wages- something clearly went very wrong there, with enforcement, oversight or loopholes! In theory, there is a limit of 55% of turnover to be spent on wages in League Two, unless an owner makes up the shortfall, wealthy owners can change this- was Dale loaning them loads of cash without proper care or guarantee to therefore get them in this mess?

I think Bolton's financial problems are more to do with the hotel side of the business rather than the football side. May be wrong but sure I heard this a few weeks ago on Talksport

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1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

I think Bolton's financial problems are more to do with the hotel side of the business rather than the football side. May be wrong but sure I heard this a few weeks ago on Talksport

Lesson there for us?

Sometimes off the field infrastructure may not be the money spinner it appears to be- mind you Bristol for events etc is much better placed than Bolton and all seems to be going to plan thusfar! Having SL too means we don't face the issues that a Ken Anderson run Bolton would, both financially and governance wise.

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52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The thing about Bolton is, it's more of a puzzle.

Historic debts yes but something seriously doesn't add up there- losses, yes but not the levels mooted.

I can't think their wage bill soared in 2017/18, they were on a strict EFL wage limit for new signings, they didn't spend any fees, cash for Madine was £6m, the jump in TV money and solidarity payments/prize pool of several million...when set against their 2016/17 accounts, it seriously doesn't add up- their historic debt was seemingly written off so more questions then answers! Overspending? Not convinced it was so simple.

@REDOXO

Understand that element yet Bury overspent too- in the sense of well they had to have had,  or SHOULD have had to have had no more than 55% of turnover spent on wages- something clearly went very wrong there, with enforcement, oversight or loopholes! In theory, there is a limit of 55% of turnover to be spent on wages in League Two, unless an owner makes up the shortfall, wealthy owners can change this- was Dale loaning them loads of cash without proper care or guarantee to therefore get them in this mess?

I agree Popo yes there were issues too. But Bury have had to take chances and make deals to merely survive. The ongoing charade, hubris and mis management at Bolton is the stuff of legends. Don’t get me wrong I have great sympathy with their fans. They will reform their club and start from the bottom and love it once they get started. One of my best friends and his family were fundamental to the reformation of Aldershot and they support their club more than ever despite the current down turn. 

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The Bury one is very, very suspect. It turns out their odious owner took them into a CVA with debts of £7M then got his son in law to purchase the debt for £70K. He is now asking for 25% or £1.75M.

Very, very shady IMHO.

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44 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I think Bolton's financial problems are more to do with the hotel side of the business rather than the football side. May be wrong but sure I heard this a few weeks ago on Talksport

I’m following some of Alan Nixon’s tweets on Bolton, and he keeps stressing that the hotel is profitable and there are several buyers keen on it. The football club seems to be the problem. They are in administration separately but it seems hugely complicated.

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1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

The Bury one is very, very suspect. It turns out their odious owner took them into a CVA with debts of £7M then got his son in law to purchase the debt for £70K. He is now asking for 25% or £1.75M.

Very, very shady IMHO.

A lot more background from David Conn here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/26/bury-britain-gigg-lane-brexit

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Remember their own owner (Bolton) wrote off over 170 million worth of debt but that still didn’t solve the problems there

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7 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Maybe if Bolton and Bury go under it will provide a stark reminder to other clubs spending above their means...

Do we just say this every time a club goes under, until the next time? Nothing’s changing within football and if anything the spending/gambling on promotion is getting more reckless

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It is hard to understand what makes a viable business these days.  Most top clubs seem to be trading at a huge loss, and their value is being inflated by the ludicrous values put on players, which are totally artificial.  The football authorities are not helping by their hopeless mismanagement of these situations.  It feels almost as though they want smaller clubs to collapse.  It’s will be an absolute tragedy if either Bolton or Bury go to the wall, while the likes of Villa thrive...

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The problem we have is Football v Football Business v Business.  It appears there are loopholes in each bit.

Where you have legitimate business practices finding loopholes in FFP, e.g. sell and lease-back of your ground, and no consistent valuation method, it’s never gonna hit the mark.

I don’t have the answer though.

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5 hours ago, beaverface said:

All this talk of merging clubs in nonsense in my eyes. I'd rather then clubs went bust and then started at the bottom end of the Pyramid. 

If we went down that route, we'd have a league similar to that of Scotland, where there's few teams left to make up the numbers, and sides would have to play each other 4 times a season!

Football is all about local communities and historical relationships with their areas, not about merging and franchising football clubs.

The quicker the Premier League and all the obscene money associated with it can go bust, the better. Actually, no, let me reword that, the quicker the obscene transfer fees and salaries are gone...the better. I think the money that is coming in could be better utilized further down the lower level grassroots football, and the redevelopment of stadiums and infrastructure.

As a radical thought, wouldn't it be interesting if clubs could only spend wages proportional to their attendances? The clubs could still get their £130million sponsorship per year from being in the Premier league,  but they'd then have to use that money build up their stadium capacities, training complexes, youth team, coaching abilities etc.. but their spending of wages would only be relevant to their attendance levels. It might even encourage lower ticket prices to the fans as it'll be more beneficial for the club to have a 20,000 attendance each paying £5-£10, compared to £25 a head for an attendance of 12,000.

 

The major downside to that thought is all the top talent would be off abroad chasing the money.

As would youngsters as they make a name for themselves then realize that 5 years in Spain and them their kids and their grandchildren are made for life.

Not saying it is right but it’s how it is.

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With all the money sloshing around the top level of the game its mental a club the size of Bolton may go out of existence. I totally get that they have been mismanaged but owners of football clubs are largely transient - the fans are not. However it’s the fans who will suffer. Any club is one bad owner away from being in this position. Something very wrong indeed. I hope they find a solution

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49 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

With all the money sloshing around the top level of the game its mental a club the size of Bolton may go out of existence. I totally get that they have been mismanaged but owners of football clubs are largely transient - the fans are not. However it’s the fans who will suffer. Any club is one bad owner away from being in this position. Something very wrong indeed. I hope they find a solution

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

Edited by ScottishRed
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20 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

Correct. Gartside wasn't daft when he suggested that the PL should be a closed shop. He knew that they were in a financial mess and that if they fell out of the PL something like this could be the end result.

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32 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

Im sure I read that in only one of the eleven years they spent in the premier league did Bolton make a profit.

 

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40 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The issue with Bolton is that they pissed away the PL money and some - I recall reading that when they got relegated from the PL , despite all the money they “earned” there, they still owned Eddie Davies £138m - there is financial mismanagement and then there is madness.

The debt was written off though. How much would our notional debt be to SL eg or many clubs to their owners.

Simple overspending, think the Bolton case a lot more complex. Money was pouring out of the club to the administrators and significantly they never published 2017/18 accounts, hard to say based on limited evidence but it's possible they broke even or made a small profit that season.

Did the suns from their 2016/17 accounts, factored in a £6m+ profit on Madine, zero spent on fees, several million rise in TV and solidarity payments- yes their wages would've risen overall but players left too- EFL imposed strict transfer conditions too.

A lot doesn't add up.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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