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JulieH

Policing at Football

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On 14/07/2019 at 14:00, GasDestroyer said:

There is a big “roundup” of City fans going on at the moment - based on supposed OB CCTV evidence (home and away). Some new cameras went in around AG last season.

Some lads have been raided at 6am for practically nothing. Some are due in court soon for the Millwall away stuff soon also.

Watch your back lads. 

Fake news I am afraid.

there is no outstanding cctv footage for anyone at this time 

2 cases being sentenced in court over next few months, Park st disorder in Bristol crown court and the disorder at Millwall 

there were no new cameras out last season. Again I have offered a trip to the cctv room to see the cameras and the offer still stands.

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10 minutes ago, JulieH said:

Fake news I am afraid.

there is no outstanding cctv footage for anyone at this time 

2 cases being sentenced in court over next few months, Park st disorder in Bristol crown court and the disorder at Millwall 

there were no new cameras out last season. Again I have offered a trip to the cctv room to see the cameras and the offer still stands.

Any update on the violence between the rugby fans at AG?

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6 hours ago, phantom said:

As someone who was there on Saturday, the only time there was anything other than people stood around chatting was when the live music started, and as you are from Weston you will know that this is a regular thing at this pub

What I would say I have also attended a scooter rally and another bikers event at the same pub this year with hundreds of people at, and there were no police in attendance at either of these events

Speaking with the pub owner she has said that there have never been problems at these events in the past, so I will disagree about why there was the need for a presence 

My initial point was the way she was stood away from the group watching what was going on, before getting in a police car and leaving

When Tommy was the football liaison officer he would approach many people at events like this and build relations with supporters, from comments many people spoke about on Saturday it has had the opposite affect

I got out of the police car with another football officer as we saw the ‘ flag’ and he wanted a photo of me with it.😳

i shook hands and stood chatting to 5 or 6 people , as did my colleague , probably for about 15 mins and we then left . We left because one Male was particularly vocal about our presence and we didn’t wish to create a scene .

i was there in wsm to assist the local units as. numbers were below minimum levels due to abstractions for nass festival , I then left and dealt with other jobs throughout the centre, including requesting a group of city fans to leave a pub as the licensee had phoned requesting their removal . I did not return to the area as we were then committed with another incident 

We have put extra officers into the centre for the last 4 years which has not been noticed and it is fair to say only has been noticed because of my presence ! 

They are only there to ensure officer numbers are still at minimum, there were no issues at this location as previously stated . 

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3 hours ago, TedBrist0l77 said:

This!!! Exactly ..A barrister told me recently how Julie & Co made some very bold forecast on how many banning orders they would get (they gain a bigger budget based on number of banning orders ... The world cup being in Russia with little trouble and relatively trouble free season in local football (city & Rovers) meant the figures are well short hence Swansea game ,Millwall, rovers v Plymouth & a few other Rovers games have seen charges for very little .. desperately needed banning orders are an issue so don't trust JH and co at all ... She's on here to self serve (it's her job to get banning orders ) her "football intelligence" thought she would get thousands in the pocket from banning orders ... She was wrong now any slight chance she will try and get someone on one https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-paid-to-seek-football-banning-orders-8772746.html

Fake news from the barrister I am afraid

the courts and judges decide who should get a banning order not me .

 

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3 hours ago, Robin Wood said:

There were a couple of coppers just outside the pub barrier chatting to people for a little while

Yes myself and my colleague , not sure of time, but live music still playing ! 

18 minutes ago, harrys said:

Any update on the violence between the rugby fans at AG?

No not yet, on going enquiries with Worcester 

will keep you updated 

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30 minutes ago, JulieH said:

Fake news from the barrister I am afraid

the courts and judges decide who should get a banning order not me .

 

Is any part of any A&S police budget decided by the number of banning orders? 

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1 hour ago, JulieH said:

Fake news I am afraid.

there is no outstanding cctv footage for anyone at this time 

2 cases being sentenced in court over next few months, Park st disorder in Bristol crown court and the disorder at Millwall 

there were no new cameras out last season. Again I have offered a trip to the cctv room to see the cameras and the offer still stands.

I had a look 👀 once when on a tour of the ground . A fair few years ago I might add 

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3 hours ago, JulieH said:

Fake news from the barrister I am afraid

the courts and judges decide who should get a banning order not me .

 

its you that applies for them .... the more you apply for the more maybe granted .... so are you saying you dont put forward a projected number of banning orders? are you also suggesting that  this from the article about increases in applications for banning orders is not true "Those monitoring the spiraling use of such orders say financial incentives may be behind it. Police, under increasing budgetary pressures, get increased funding from the Home Office for applying for the orders. Criminal convictions do not bring them financial benefits. ?

 

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6 hours ago, TedBrist0l77 said:

its you that applies for them .... the more you apply for the more maybe granted .... so are you saying you dont put forward a projected number of banning orders? are you also suggesting that  this from the article about increases in applications for banning orders is not true "Those monitoring the spiraling use of such orders say financial incentives may be behind it. Police, under increasing budgetary pressures, get increased funding from the Home Office for applying for the orders. Criminal convictions do not bring them financial benefits. ?

 

Interesting how you joined 13 hours ago and your only 2 posts have been about the police.

Incase you weren’t aware, this is a football forum, there’s so much more to it than just discussions about banning orders...

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15 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Interesting how you joined 13 hours ago and your only 2 posts have been about the police.

Incase you weren’t aware, this is a football forum, there’s so much more to it than just discussions about banning orders...

sorry officer i didn't realise there was a quota on what you can or cannot discuss 😝 fwiw i have been a member before but forgot all my details and posted previously on many things however football supporters and the law affecting them is a passion/ bug bare of mine especially when supporters are banned from doing something they love because of a one off mistake .

 

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15 minutes ago, TedBrist0l77 said:

sorry officer i didn't realise there was a quota on what you can or cannot discuss 😝 fwiw i have been a member before but forgot all my details and posted previously on many things however football supporters and the law affecting them is a passion/ bug bare of mine especially when supporters are banned from doing something they love because of a one off mistake .

 

There isn’t a quota on what you can and cannot discuss, however on a football forum you normally discuss football, not the police...

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41 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Interesting how you joined 13 hours ago and your only 2 posts have been about the police.

Incase you weren’t aware, this is a football forum, there’s so much more to it than just discussions about banning orders...

Boot licker

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12 minutes ago, Gary Nanes said:

Boot licker

I thought you’d blocked me because I thought we should give Leeds a higher away allocation?

Edited by JBFC II

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9 hours ago, shelts said:

I had a look 👀 once when on a tour of the ground . A fair few years ago I might add 

It has changed considerably since then. 

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7 hours ago, TedBrist0l77 said:

its you that applies for them .... the more you apply for the more maybe granted .... so are you saying you dont put forward a projected number of banning orders? are you also suggesting that  this from the article about increases in applications for banning orders is not true "Those monitoring the spiraling use of such orders say financial incentives may be behind it. Police, under increasing budgetary pressures, get increased funding from the Home Office for applying for the orders. Criminal convictions do not bring them financial benefits. ?

 

No that is not correct.

there is no projected number of banning orders put forward at any stage, never has been and never will be .

the system is that once a person has been charged with an offence relating to a regulated football match then the court on conviction may give a football banning order . 

This is a system that does not rely on one officer making decisions on who gets a ban I am afraid ,  my role and job amongst others is to attend court cases for those cases to assist cps / questions around banning order hence why I suspect I seem to get the attention . !! 😳 

I can’t comment on that extract as I always like to see the whole article in order to take the extract in context.

 

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41 minutes ago, TedBrist0l77 said:

sorry officer i didn't realise there was a quota on what you can or cannot discuss 😝 fwiw i have been a member before but forgot all my details and posted previously on many things however football supporters and the law affecting them is a passion/ bug bare of mine especially when supporters are banned from doing something they love because of a one off mistake .

 

Might be easier to meet at some point where I can discuss with you the football policing role I do and listen to your concerns . More than happy to do that. 

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1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

There isn’t a quota on what you can and cannot discuss, however on a football forum you normally discuss football, not the police...

There have many occasions when the subject matter has veered away on a tangent, so I see no reason to criticise this particular poster.  The policing of football supporters and grounds affects all fans of the game, so it is IMHO football related.  By the way who appointed you as judge and jury?

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1 minute ago, maxjak said:

There have many occasions when the subject matter has veered away on a tangent, so I see no reason to criticise this particular poster.  The policing of football supporters and grounds affects all fans of the game, so it is IMHO football related.  By the way who appointed you as judge and jury?

Nobody, just seems very odd that he’s joined and only posted about the police...

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Just now, Gary Nanes said:

Mind your own business you little no mark

Why haven’t you answered my question?

Oh and ‘attack the post not the poster...’

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1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

Why haven’t you answered my question?

Oh and ‘attack the post not the poster...’

I don't need to justify his comments, he can post about what he likes, when he likes.

Oh and 'get off your high horse you boot licking police apologist...'

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Just now, Gary Nanes said:

I don't need to justify his comments, he can post about what he likes, when he likes.

Oh and 'get off your high horse you boot licking police apologist...'

My question about why you haven’t blocked me, as you said you would after I disagreed with you over the allocation we should give away fans, still waiting...

And again, when someone doesn’t agree with you you get personal. This is a forum mate, people aren’t all going to agree with you...

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3 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

This is a forum mate, people aren’t all going to agree with you...

Agreed, so it's probably best you stop taking issue with posts you don't agree with that have nothing to do with you isn't it?

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Just now, Gary Nanes said:

Agreed, so it's probably best you stop taking issue with posts you don't agree with that have nothing to do with you isn't it?

When did I say I had an issue? Was just questioning why he’d signed up yesterday and in 14 hours has only made 3 posts, all about the police...

If you could now answer my question that’d be great...

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1 hour ago, JulieH said:

Yes, I was answering forum questions from there at 0100hrs this morning on a cancelled rest day!

back there today and Thursday 

 

 

When rest days are cancelled, do police officers get paid overtime, or get reassigned the rest day?

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Will be interesting to watch how this develops. I notice our local force isn't on the list but wonder if that's because we have less sides in that area? 

Is this something that has been discussed locally @JulieH ?

IMG_20190716_093307.jpg

IMG_20190716_093310.jpg

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11 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

When rest days are cancelled, do police officers get paid overtime, or get reassigned the rest day?

When they are cancelled within a certain number of days( less than 5 days on this occasion)  they are paid with no extra Rd , anything outside you just get an extra Rd 

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12 minutes ago, phantom said:

Will be interesting to watch how this develops. I notice our local force isn't on the list but wonder if that's because we have less sides in that area? 

Is this something that has been discussed locally @JulieH ?

IMG_20190716_093307.jpg

IMG_20190716_093310.jpg

This particular letter has not been discussed locally because as you say we are not on the list. 

Discussions locally continue with all clubs and fans with the police point of view still being to decrease the amount of policing into football, and having assessed the games for this season it does look like this  will be the case with lower grades at most games already 

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15 minutes ago, JulieH said:

This particular letter has not been discussed locally because as you say we are not on the list. 

Discussions locally continue with all clubs and fans with the police point of view still being to decrease the amount of policing into football, and having assessed the games for this season it does look like this  will be the case with lower grades at most games already 

I wonder how different the list would have looked if it was a % rather than the actual amount?

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I've got a question on the cameras front.

Recently in the news there has been much discussion about Facial Recognition- and concerns over identification, misidentification. Indeed, in the CL final at Cardiff 2017 there has been evidence to suggest that there were misidentifications, let alone the wider concerns about civil liberties- not just applicable to football but to life generally- football seems one of those things that is a "Guinea pig" if you like.

https://www.south-wales.police.uk/en/news-room/introduction-of-facial-recognition-into-south-wales-police/

As we can see, it was piloted at football- the first line is the big giveaway. Football a "Test run"/"test dummy"/"guinea pig". This was in May/June 2017 for the avoidance of doubt.

Quote

South Wales Police have partnered up with market leader NEC to formally pilot facial recognition technology during the Champions League finals week in Cardiff during late May/early June.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48383920

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-44661478

I'm sure there are other articles and other aspects if I look further- but I suppose my main question at this stage would be something like: "Are there any plans to introduce this to AG, and if so what safeguards are in place, are going to be put in place"?

Oh yeah, the misidentification bit- sure there must be more up to date articles but I recall hearing it on the news the other day- these 2 articles are from a year ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/05/welsh-police-wrongly-identify-thousands-as-potential-criminals

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-44007872

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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2 hours ago, JulieH said:

Yes they have, lots of liaison with police and other authorities before and during the protest so far to enable a peaceful protest 

Today not so bad, but working on the 7th floor of a nearby tower block I can confirm that while the protest yesterday may have been non-violent, it was anything but peaceful!!!!

Music and drumming not yet started today, thankfully!

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3 hours ago, JBFC II said:

Interesting how you joined 13 hours ago and your only 2 posts have been about the police.

Incase you weren’t aware, this is a football forum, there’s so much more to it than just discussions about banning orders...

Why is OB on the forum as a club official then ?

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37 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Why is OB on the forum as a club official then ?

I believe it was because there are only a certain number of groups that could be used, and to highlight it wasn't a "supporter"

There is no additional access within this forum, the only ones that can see additional sections are the mods / admin

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11 minutes ago, phantom said:

I believe it was because there are only a certain number of groups that could be used, and to highlight it wasn't a "supporter"

There is no additional access within this forum, the only ones that can see additional sections are the mods / admin

Point taken mate. My query is more about why OB is on here at all.

I don't recall much input from our resident law enforcer on the games, but perhaps she is a gashead after the hundreds of matches she watched up and down the country following them.

Edited by Loon plage
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I'm pretty anti police :laugh:

But fair play to Julie for coming on here and answering peoples concerns/questions

She does not have to do it.

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5 minutes ago, Riaz said:

I'm pretty anti police :laugh:

But fair play to Julie for coming on here and answering peoples concerns/questions

She does not have to do it.

Reckon its her job to mate.

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3 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Reckon its her job to mate.

respond to football fans on a internet forum? doubt it.

Edited by Riaz
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9 minutes ago, Riaz said:

I'm pretty anti police :laugh:

But fair play to Julie for coming on here and answering peoples concerns/questions

She does not have to do it.

 

4 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Reckon its her job to mate.

In this day of modern technology it would probably make perfect sense to be within a job description

It's just a shame out SLO has vanished from this forum lately, Now that IS park of the UEFA directive for the role

 

My opinion, over the years I've witnessed too much sillyness not just from supporters but officers too.

But I actually think it is a good thing having a representative on here, as there have been a number of rumours / stories that have been replied to, that if they hadn't would have been believed as fact

Let's be honest the police would be all over a forum like this anyway, at least this way there is a kind of transparency as who knows if there are others on here using names that we would have no idea about?

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4 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

 

In this day of modern technology it would probably make perfect sense to be within a job description

It's just a shame out SLO has vanished from this forum lately, Now that IS park of the UEFA directive for the role

 

My opinion, over the years I've witnessed too much sillyness not just from supporters but officers too.

But I actually think it is a good thing having a representative on here, as there have been a number of rumours / stories that have been replied to, that if they hadn't would have been believed as fact

Let's be honest the police would be all over a forum like this anyway, at least this way there is a kind of transparency as who knows if there are others on here using names that we would have no idea about?

This is true, agreed it may well be part of it these days.

A certain transparency is always good- incidentally I could take your under names unknown point and raise it, for while this is an open forum- the bulk of it anyway, you wouldn't even need to register- if you know what you're looking for just read Football Chat- so ultimately as the forum is set up atm, to do any snooping/ quiet intelligence gathering, you wouldn't necessarily even need to register!

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3 hours ago, phantom said:

I wonder how different the list would have looked if it was a % rather than the actual amount?

It would have not looked different. 

Policing football in this force area is not a way of generating income, it is based solely of risks attached to the fixture, views of fans and the community and the football club . 

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2 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

image.png.d88b498c71e43f72ff5017c3c6b1ed00.png

And of course the predictable Snake reaction from one of the main protagonists who obviously won't try and reasonably argue the point.

 

Whats the point........? The Police on here can 'do no wrong' in peoples eyes.......

Also when she is proven wrong..... she goes hiding until it is forgotten about......

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4 minutes ago, TETBURY MASSIVE said:

Whats the point........? The Police on here can 'do no wrong' in peoples eyes.......

Also when she is proven wrong..... she goes hiding until it is forgotten about......

Why don't you remove the blinkers and try and find out if you can argue reasonably?

I've been critical of the police in the past, most recently the Swansea debacle, which was a bit of a cluster.

It helps if you try and keep a balanced view.  If Julie saw you being mugged and nicked the person before they got away you'd be moaning that she didn't prevent it from even happening.  I think it's more the fact that they police can 'do no right' in some people's eyes.

Edited by Steve Watts
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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I've got a question on the cameras front.

Recently in the news there has been much discussion about Facial Recognition- and concerns over identification, misidentification. Indeed, in the CL final at Cardiff 2017 there has been evidence to suggest that there were misidentifications, let alone the wider concerns about civil liberties- not just applicable to football but to life generally- football seems one of those things that is a "Guinea pig" if you like.

https://www.south-wales.police.uk/en/news-room/introduction-of-facial-recognition-into-south-wales-police/

As we can see, it was piloted at football- the first line is the big giveaway. Football a "Test run"/"test dummy"/"guinea pig". This was in May/June 2017 for the avoidance of doubt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48383920

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-44661478

I'm sure there are other articles and other aspects if I look further- but I suppose my main question at this stage would be something like: "Are there any plans to introduce this to AG, and if so what safeguards are in place, are going to be put in place"?

Oh yeah, the misidentification bit- sure there must be more up to date articles but I recall hearing it on the news the other day- these 2 articles are from a year ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/05/welsh-police-wrongly-identify-thousands-as-potential-criminals

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-44007872

I actually worked that game so am aware the camera was in place . 

Tbh it is not a lthingni know a lot about, but can be used to direct police officers to people for engagement, and at that point identification can be clarified I suppose. 

Its no different to officers mistakenly identifying someone as being on a football ban who then get spoken to by others and it then becomes obvious a mistake has been made😂

i am not aware of any plans by Avon and Somerset police to have a camera of this type installed at Ashton gate  

 

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1 minute ago, Steve Watts said:

Why don't you remove the blinkers and try and find out if you can argue reasonably?

I've been critical of the police in the past, most recently the Swansea debacle, which was a bit of a cluster.

It helps if you try and keep a balanced view.  If Julie saw you being mugged and nicked the person before they got away you'd be moaning that she didn't prevent it from even happening.  I think it's more the fact that they police can 'do no right' in some people's eyes.

You think she does a good job....... I disagree.....

I think she does a poor job... you disagree....

Conversation finished......

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52 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Reckon its her job to mate.

No I have chosen to do it to help with fans concerns/ views on football policing . 

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20 minutes ago, JulieH said:

I actually worked that game so am aware the camera was in place . 

Tbh it is not a lthingni know a lot about, but can be used to direct police officers to people for engagement, and at that point identification can be clarified I suppose. 

Its no different to officers mistakenly identifying someone as being on a football ban who then get spoken to by others and it then becomes obvious a mistake has been made😂

i am not aware of any plans by Avon and Somerset police to have a camera of this type installed at Ashton gate  

 

Thanks. So as far as you are aware, as it stands at this time, there won't be facial recognition cameras at AG? Neither there but switched off or plans to install.

Nice one to work that, Juventus-Real Madrid CL Final!

Sounds about right.

Yeah- the high proportion misidentified though seems concerning.

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