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Policing at Football


JulieH

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11 minutes ago, harrys said:

Don’t think i’ve ever been to a race meeting when their hasn’t been score sort of trouble, but there again that’s probably football fans 

Why would it be football fans? Don't doubt you from the things I've heard, racing isnt my scene and I reckon class/status is one of the reasons why it isn't policed as heavily. 

 

@phantom 

Nice stats, shows that what they've been doing is "working" and hopefully laws will be changed. I think it's about time to try some. Those are for arrests though and the other one from Passmore PPC is for reports, which is why there's a discrepancy. 

Also refer you back to 

 

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Funny how arguments like this fac reflect the way I feel about most of the big debates at the moment in wider society (the B word, for example).

I agree with some of the posters on here that Julie H shouldn't have gone down to the WSM meet. Your a supporter liaison officer, and quite frankly have scored a bit of an own goal to be seen down there observing. I can completely understand that it would of felt like a implicit threat, and quite frankly, a little insulting to those that went. You, like any other sort of liaison officer, should be seen to build and nurture trust between two parties that have historically tumultous relationships with eachother (football fans and the police). 

However, the attitudes of those very same posters on here completely undermine the argument. Your blanket hostility towards her, as well as the generally sniping, petty and hostile comments towards those posters that don't agree with you, completely un-do any well intentioned criticism of police actions. You should be looking to motivate those that are maybe ignorant towards some of the less than constructive police activity over the last few years in football, to get clued up and join you in calling it out when seen. I'm all for holding police to account, but the hostility, and 1980's terrace style language just perpetuates the division, and makes those that have some sympathy for the police side with them even more

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49 minutes ago, Rinkadink said:

 

I didn't realise this was a season ticket holder only forum? Sorry if my few times a year, TV and online match viewing isn't enough for you. Is that really the avenue you're going to take? Why so aggressive and personal? I love Bris and support City (If I'm allowed to?), almost went to the WSM gathering as well. Nice to know I would have been super welcome.

I already apologised but are you the same poster as the rugby forum ?

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1 hour ago, Rinkadink said:

Been posted multiple times here my dude, @Carey 6 has again on this page. 

Thanks

Complete and utter tosh (The figures) 

skewed by Senior Police Officers in attempts to get Clubs pay more for policing

When you look at what is considered to totally manipulate  calculate these figures you realise what a joke they are leading to the totally misleading ,  joke claim, with you just as bad using it for your argument

 

Over 37% of all club football matches (2017-18) resulted in some kind of violence or disorder

 

By the same criteria Bristol City Centre for example would result in % 100 hit rate  every single night

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I referred to it the other day, but here is an example of each, the good work that Football Specialist Lawyers can do.

For FBOs here.

And for Club bans here.

I know someone who was a bit of wrong place wrong time and got helped out by this organisation. Anyone with an FBO hearing or a club ban hearing pending- unless absolutely stupidly bang to rights, appeal it, take it up with Football Legal specialists etc would be my advice- may be that you don't have a case but approach FSA Faircop as a starting point. We all deserve representation and due process after all.

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1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thanks

Complete and utter tosh (The figures) 

skewed by Senior Police Officers in attempts to get Clubs pay more for policing

When you look at what is considered to totally manipulate  calculate these figures you realise what a joke they are leading to the totally misleading ,  joke claim, with you just as bad using it for your argument

 

Over 37% of all club football matches (2017-18) resulted in some kind of violence or disorder

 

By the same criteria Bristol City Centre for example would result in % 100 hit rate  every single night

What you mean, I'm just as bad? I don't disagree that those figures may have been massaged somewhat, look at @Mr Popodopolous post for a great example of a law that I would look to change immediately. Just being drunk at a footy match shouldn't be a crime. My first post in this thread was pretty clear in saying there are two sides and that hasn't changed. Perhaps it wasn't communicated well enough at first but hopefully that's all cleared up now?

As for town centre, I would guess the OB are there every single night too  which ties in to my earlier post. I'm not surprised they are nor am I going to pretend I don't know why they're there; they feel there is a problem, they are going to police it. 

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5 minutes ago, Rinkadink said:

What you mean, I'm just as bad? I don't disagree that those figures may have been massaged somewhat, look at @Mr Popodopolous post for a great example of a law that I would look to change immediately. Just being drunk at a footy match shouldn't be a crime. My first post in this thread was pretty clear in saying there are two sides and that hasn't changed. Perhaps it wasn't communicated well enough at first but hopefully that's all cleared up now?

As for town centre, I would guess the OB are there every single night too  which ties in to my earlier post. I'm not surprised they are nor am I going to pretend I don't know why they're there; they feel there is a problem, they are going to police it. 

Because you posted the figures to justify your point

When you see what would categorise a game as violent or subject of disorder , the figures are pointless and as stated completely loaded and skewed to mislead

 

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In the context of my original point;

"Doesn't matter too much what we think of it, those are figures police are using and responding to."

I never said I thought the figures were gospel, because I don't. To be clear. The discussion was then broadened and I expect we are singing from the same sheet yet you seem to want a pop at me, why? 

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9 hours ago, Gary Nanes said:

If you were to go out on the piss tonight with your mates (if you have any) would you expect a member of the OB to stand and watch you enjoy yourself?

I do, I'd rather the police use their supposed limited resources in trying to stop actual crimes like the ones taking place in our fine city this week, disrupting commuters and ruining people's day rather than a few folk who are gesturing at an away end in a football match.

Each to their own though Gashead.

I take from that that you think fighting at football isn't or shouldn't be a crime? 

I'm in my mid 50s so have probably see the worst of it football violence wise, I was brought up on an estate and-  I suspect we are similar on this score- fighting at football was just something you and your mates did. I grew out of it  (or maybe realised I was shit at fighting) by the time I was about 20 as did some of my mates and there were others that didn't. I know some people who still get involved now (on both sides of the river) , it doesn't stop us being mates. I have also seen- although not so much in recent times- some god awful policing at football and also some police ( Nearly always  West Mids, South Yorks or the Met) who have been quite clearly 'up for it'.

My point to all that is to try and point out that I know where you are coming from (if that makes sense)

However, fighting at football IS a crime, and one that isn't as victimless as the participants like to think. If you are going to play up at a football match, then you have to expect to get nicked at some point- even if it is a year after the event!

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This seems an ideal place for it.

Question for @JulieH

Regarding the "Good behaviour agreements" made reference to on another thread, which may well be a good thing, one element I found interesting was the claim that it "waived the right to appeal sanctions for future misdemeanours".

Interested to see how it stacks up in full.

I've no personal interest, just a general one.

Presuming the club all have their ducks in a row on this one. This is only quick search based stuff but would be very interesting to see how it all stacks up...presumably such a "Good Behaviour Agreement" wouldn't fall under an Arbitration based category?

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18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This seems an ideal place for it.

Question for @JulieH

Regarding the "Good behaviour agreements" made reference to on another thread, which may well be a good thing, one element I found interesting was the claim that it "waived the right to appeal sanctions for future misdemeanours".

Interested to see how it stacks up in full.

I've no personal interest, just a general one.

Presuming the club all have their ducks in a row on this one. This is only quick search based stuff but would be very interesting to see how it all stacks up...presumably such a "Good Behaviour Agreement" wouldn't fall under an Arbitration based category?

Not really sure what the question is but will explain the current contract that is led by Bristol city in partnership with us.

person may commit a minor offence / anti social behaviour and a decision is made to issue this contract which normally runs alongside game bans , the number of which is decided by Bristol city. , normally from 1 game to 3 

It has to be agreed by the fan, if they don’t then the simple answer is that way of dealing is not then taken and other ways of dealing with the offence are then taken by the police If a criminal offence , and the club if a simple breach of ground regulations 

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4 hours ago, JulieH said:

Not really sure what the question is but will explain the current contract that is led by Bristol city in partnership with us.

person may commit a minor offence / anti social behaviour and a decision is made to issue this contract which normally runs alongside game bans , the number of which is decided by Bristol city. , normally from 1 game to 3 

It has to be agreed by the fan, if they don’t then the simple answer is that way of dealing is not then taken and other ways of dealing with the offence are then taken by the police If a criminal offence , and the club if a simple breach of ground regulations 

I initially put a question or intended to then went off on a little rant- glad you deciphered it somewhat! :thumbsup:

Thanks, that makes sense. I suppose my question was about which area of the law it fits with the law- the aspect whereby if a fan signs said agreement, fair enough but waive the right to appeal against a future misdemeanour. Presumably it fits rather well and is all on the level? 

A standard plea-bargain type arrangement type thing I presume?

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31 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I initially put a question or intended to then went off on a little rant- glad you deciphered it somewhat! :thumbsup:

Thanks, that makes sense. I suppose my question was about which area of the law it fits with the law- the aspect whereby if a fan signs said agreement, fair enough but waive the right to appeal against a future misdemeanour. Presumably it fits rather well and is all on the level? 

A standard plea-bargain type arrangement type thing I presume?

It’s generally used for minor criminal offences or constant ejections in breach of ground regs.

the last couple of ones I have dealt with for instance have been a 19yr old no previous convictions or history threw a papercup in disgust during the derby home match, another has been 4-5 16yr olds two seasons ago, behaviour inside and out was not acceptable and in conjunction with parents a contract was signed, no match ban until one then breached and he was banned for 1 game

my personal view is that it seems a  fair system without criminalising fans straight away plus improves behaviour inside and outside the stadium without a huge amount of police activity . 

Mid at any stage the fan does not agre to it then we arrange something else , so far everyone has agreed !! 

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4 hours ago, myol'man said:

Busy day coming up this Saturday @JulieH ?

Thin blue line protecting our Matty from the GHS ?

I like to think it will be just another game!!

there are police on duty for the fixture both inside and outside the ground , no specific protection requested but I am aware of the feelings of rovers fans towards him, I worked the game last night and it was the talk of the terraces . ?

our role is to keep the event safe for everyone in conjunction with the stewarding and safety team from rovers and I am sure this will be achieved 

 

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10 minutes ago, JulieH said:

I like to think it will be just another game!!

there are police on duty for the fixture both inside and outside the ground , no specific protection requested but I am aware of the feelings of rovers fans towards him, I worked the game last night and it was the talk of the terraces . ?

our role is to keep the event safe for everyone in conjunction with the stewarding and safety team from rovers and I am sure this will be achieved 

 

Didn't it all kick off with the Fewers and Oxford last year?

I'm sure Oxford were all shoved in the Hingoblin on Gloucester Road at early o'clock. Made for fair viewing as I was enjoying a breakfast in the Lagoon.

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44 minutes ago, JulieH said:

It’s generally used for minor criminal offences or constant ejections in breach of ground regs.

the last couple of ones I have dealt with for instance have been a 19yr old no previous convictions or history threw a papercup in disgust during the derby home match, another has been 4-5 16yr olds two seasons ago, behaviour inside and out was not acceptable and in conjunction with parents a contract was signed, no match ban until one then breached and he was banned for 1 game

my personal view is that it seems a  fair system without criminalising fans straight away plus improves behaviour inside and outside the stadium without a huge amount of police activity . 

Mid at any stage the fan does not agre to it then we arrange something else , so far everyone has agreed !! 

System could have some merit then I guess- though throwing a papercup and getting in bother for that is laughable- no offence to yourself, but it is. What @phantom said about liquid I presume.

Must have been a bigger backstory or context to that??

The second one sounds more reasonable, makes most sense of the 2 and obviously the law is the law. Ideal not to be criminalised at the first instance. Waiving a right to appeal future misdemeanours though seems open to abuse...

Which law is it under, the waiver of the right to appeal aspect? Had a bit of a look for relevant legislation online as a starting point...

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2 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

Didn't it all kick off with the Fewers and Oxford last year?

I'm sure Oxford were all shoved in the Hingoblin on Gloucester Road at early o'clock. Made for fair viewing as I was enjoying a breakfast in the Lagoon.

Yes you are correct, there was disorder on gloucester road last year between groups of males from rovers and oxford 

at least you had breakfast that day, it was a long one for us ?

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1 minute ago, JulieH said:

Yes you are correct, there was disorder on gloucester road last year between groups of males from rovers and oxford 

at least you had breakfast that day, it was a long one for us ?

It was a nice breakfast as well. 

Although the new chef isn't great. The eggs can be a bit overcooked.

Can you assure me that my weekend breakfast options will be less limited? Ideally, what I would ask - no, DEMAND, of Avon and Somerset's finest - is that should you have load of enthusiastic males seeking alcohol/sport/violence and/or drugs, you avoided placing them in a establishment that does a good breakfast.

I can give you a list of place to avoid, if that'll help.

 

Regards,

Peckish of just off Gloucester Road.

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48 minutes ago, JulieH said:

No

@JulieH Can you elaborate please or are you seriously telling me a 19 year old male got in trouble for throwing a empty paper cup? I assume it was more than dropped and was thrown with such venom to endanger life? 

I’m genuinely interested as I can’t quite picture the scenario at present?   

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6 minutes ago, ziderheadarmy said:

@JulieH Can you elaborate please or are you seriously telling me a 19 year old male got in trouble for throwing a empty paper cup? I assume it was more than dropped and was thrown with such venom to endanger life? 

I’m genuinely interested as I can’t quite picture the scenario at present?   

I'm not Julie of course, but just a personal opinion here.

It's a nice easy "nick" isn't it. Just laughable and especially without more context.

That or a steward on a powertrip referring it to police? Not tarnishing all stewards at all but like in all walks of life you will get idiots- in this case potentially a steward.

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2 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

It was a nice breakfast as well. 

Although the new chef isn't great. The eggs can be a bit overcooked.

Can you assure me that my weekend breakfast options will be less limited? Ideally, what I would ask - no, DEMAND, of Avon and Somerset's finest - is that should you have load of enthusiastic males seeking alcohol/sport/violence and/or drugs, you avoided placing them in a establishment that does a good breakfast.

I can give you a list of place to avoid, if that'll help.

 

Regards,

Peckish of just off Gloucester Road.

I will absolutely ensure the command team are aware of your request 

perhaps Avon and Somerset’s finest could give you a guard throughout your breakfast whilst tasting the food ensuring it is up to standard? Might suggest that as well ?

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1 hour ago, ziderheadarmy said:

@JulieH Can you elaborate please or are you seriously telling me a 19 year old male got in trouble for throwing a empty paper cup? I assume it was more than dropped and was thrown with such venom to endanger life? 

I’m genuinely interested as I can’t quite picture the scenario at present?   

Thrown over the seg line in the atyeo toward derby fans. Not arrested but ejected and that it how we are dealing with it in view of the circumstances. 

Very common all over matches throwing a missile, paperplanes, pasties , even I am told snakes ? 

dependant upon the circumstances depends upon the action taken by either club or police ( ifvwitnessed by us) 

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hi @JulieH

Any chance you could state which legislation it falls under, the whole "Waiving right to appeal"?

Because indeed, "Not only must justice be done; it must also be seen to be done."

Thanks.

I am not sure what that means to be honest. 

No one person has ever appealed the decision and on the occasions it has been breached both fans knew it would be brought up again when the club then considered games ban . 

It has not been used to represent bad character in a criminal court by this force 

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10 minutes ago, JulieH said:

I am not sure what that means to be honest. 

No one person has ever appealed the decision and on the occasions it has been breached both fans knew it would be brought up again when the club then considered games ban . 

It has not been used to represent bad character in a criminal court by this force 

Which bit?

"Waiving the right to appeal a future misdemeanour". How long does this clause/aspect last for for a start? Indefinite or a fixed tariff e.g. say 3 seasons.

When you say 'No one person has ever appealed the decision' do you mean the agreement- namely the "Good Behaviour Agreement" . My main point is querying the aspect that says that a fan waives their right to appeal future misdemeanours in exchange for the Good Behaviour Agreement.

Or are we cross purposes ie I'm referring to this specific part of it and you're referring to the 2 cases in question, the examples that you provided?

Criminal court? No. I'm not suggesting that it has.

The agreement itself ie "Good Behaviour Agreement" is probably a good thing on balance but I do query the aspect /clause which I have stated- it's on another thread I lifted it from.

Put simply, which law/piece of legislation does the "waiving of right to appeal" as part of such an agreement fall under?

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