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one up front


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well that went well.

LJ must have his reasons for never going 2 up front, but today was horrible - yes Prem team etc, but it has long been established that FD is NOT a target man, in fact it's hard to say exactly what he is, (This is not knocking him - i rate him) but it seems to me he would benefit from having another striker playing alongside him, much tighter than we currently do with this ineffective 3-5-3-1-2-3-1 thing that Lee likes to pursue. - whatever it actually is.

Wiemann was/ is wasted out wide (however I would implore him to be much much more selfish and just go for goal!)

Sammy seems like another LJ classic - lightweight, fancy pants passing, drifting around the MF, no particular end result. we have a few of them already Pato in particular (in fact Paterson had some good chances when he came on - he just fluffed them)

and so once again Fammy is isolated and bears the brunt of everyone's frustrations because he doesn't single handedly score every time the ball is flicked/lumped to him, as he tries to control it when marked by 3 CD's

I thought Elliason looked promising, but not enough direct balls whipped in - we persist with  that fruitless triangular passing, which allows the defense to regroup and everything peters out

 

we don't seem to have learnt, or progressed and we will suffer against the direct teams (like Leeds) unless we start to become much more ruthless and direct in front of goal.

(with 2 strikers please)

 

 

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What other teams play with 2 up front these days? It usually leads to being weak in midfield compared to opposition that have 1 up front. If we want to play 2 up front then we need midfielders that can read the game like nostradamus and a striker to with Fammy. 

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58 minutes ago, Pezo said:

What other teams play with 2 up front these days? It usually leads to being weak in midfield compared to opposition that have 1 up front. If we want to play 2 up front then we need midfielders that can read the game like nostradamus and a striker to with Fammy. 

I actually thought the problem today was we had 2 up front! Diedhiou and Szmodics. And it meant we were so poor in midfield with Pack struggling to cope.

Last season we had most of our success from playing Fam up top on his own.

If we play 2 up top then I would want to see something like what we saw against Derby in the first friendly. 352. Sheffield United went up playing that system and that allowed them to have 2 strikers. 

We looked superb in that 45 minutes against Derby. Our midfield was not overrun and we had bodies in the box supporting Fam.

We had our attacking full backs in their natural wing back positions. Webster found it easier bringing it out of defence with extra cover behind him. It just looked right to me.

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5 hours ago, Antman said:

well that went well.

LJ must have his reasons for never going 2 up front, but today was horrible - yes Prem team etc, but it has long been established that FD is NOT a target man, in fact it's hard to say exactly what he is, (This is not knocking him - i rate him) but it seems to me he would benefit from having another striker playing alongside him, much tighter than we currently do with this ineffective 3-5-3-1-2-3-1 thing that Lee likes to pursue. - whatever it actually is.

Wiemann was/ is wasted out wide (however I would implore him to be much much more selfish and just go for goal!)

Sammy seems like another LJ classic - lightweight, fancy pants passing, drifting around the MF, no particular end result. we have a few of them already Pato in particular (in fact Paterson had some good chances when he came on - he just fluffed them)

and so once again Fammy is isolated and bears the brunt of everyone's frustrations because he doesn't single handedly score every time the ball is flicked/lumped to him, as he tries to control it when marked by 3 CD's

I thought Elliason looked promising, but not enough direct balls whipped in - we persist with  that fruitless triangular passing, which allows the defense to regroup and everything peters out

 

we don't seem to have learnt, or progressed and we will suffer against the direct teams (like Leeds) unless we start to become much more ruthless and direct in front of goal.

(with 2 strikers please)

 

 

Controversial, but maybe LJ just isn't what we need to get us out of this division (assuming that is what they really want) we all seem to say the same things yet nothing gets done to remedy the shortfalls that a lot of us seem to continually highlight, perhaps he can't see the wood for the trees that somebody else might. 

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I don’t really like our wingers being on the opposite side to what foot they are, it becomes a little too obvious that they’re going to stop & cut back every time. 

The one time Eliasson put a ball in with his right created the best chance of the game & unfortunately Diedhiou couldn’t finish it. 

I know Eliasson scored a couple & created a couple coming in from the right last season but I’m not sure we have the player that can play on the left side and do similar things consistently, Paterson is probably the nearest thing we have but he will always be a 1 in 5 player & if you have him, Szmodics & Eliasson in the same side, you start to look very lightweight. 

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7 hours ago, Antman said:

well that went well.

LJ must have his reasons for never going 2 up front, but today was horrible - yes Prem team etc, but it has long been established that FD is NOT a target man, in fact it's hard to say exactly what he is, (This is not knocking him - i rate him) but it seems to me he would benefit from having another striker playing alongside him, much tighter than we currently do with this ineffective 3-5-3-1-2-3-1 thing that Lee likes to pursue. - whatever it actually is.

Wiemann was/ is wasted out wide (however I would implore him to be much much more selfish and just go for goal!)

Sammy seems like another LJ classic - lightweight, fancy pants passing, drifting around the MF, no particular end result. we have a few of them already Pato in particular (in fact Paterson had some good chances when he came on - he just fluffed them)

and so once again Fammy is isolated and bears the brunt of everyone's frustrations because he doesn't single handedly score every time the ball is flicked/lumped to him, as he tries to control it when marked by 3 CD's

I thought Elliason looked promising, but not enough direct balls whipped in - we persist with  that fruitless triangular passing, which allows the defense to regroup and everything peters out

 

we don't seem to have learnt, or progressed and we will suffer against the direct teams (like Leeds) unless we start to become much more ruthless and direct in front of goal.

(with 2 strikers please)

 

 

I honestly don't think that in all my time on here I have ever agreed with an OP as much.

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15 hours ago, Antman said:

well that went well.

LJ must have his reasons for never going 2 up front, but today was horrible - yes Prem team etc, but it has long been established that FD is NOT a target man, in fact it's hard to say exactly what he is, (This is not knocking him - i rate him) but it seems to me he would benefit from having another striker playing alongside him, much tighter than we currently do with this ineffective 3-5-3-1-2-3-1 thing that Lee likes to pursue. - whatever it actually is.

Wiemann was/ is wasted out wide (however I would implore him to be much much more selfish and just go for goal!)

Sammy seems like another LJ classic - lightweight, fancy pants passing, drifting around the MF, no particular end result. we have a few of them already Pato in particular (in fact Paterson had some good chances when he came on - he just fluffed them)

and so once again Fammy is isolated and bears the brunt of everyone's frustrations because he doesn't single handedly score every time the ball is flicked/lumped to him, as he tries to control it when marked by 3 CD's

I thought Elliason looked promising, but not enough direct balls whipped in - we persist with  that fruitless triangular passing, which allows the defense to regroup and everything peters out

 

we don't seem to have learnt, or progressed and we will suffer against the direct teams (like Leeds) unless we start to become much more ruthless and direct in front of goal.

(with 2 strikers please)

 

 

Agree, it puts a big burden on Diedhiou.

In a wider, more floating position higher say a 4-3-3 I think as part of that out wide he could contribute more- not in this shape though.

Too early to say IMO.

Agreed.

Don't think it works so well at this level now but we'll see- we hit a lot of crosses in last season but as tactics and defences evolve, this becomes easier to play. Sitll couldn't have been much worse than yesterday!

The highest average % possession in the League last season- what do you mean by "direct" exactly? Always or usually associated Bielsa with a fairly possession minded but certainly high pressing game- they may go direct at times but certainly not as a Plan A. If you mean combining technically sound with direct and high press then maybe.

So long as we don't get bypassed in midfield again- have a problem with this 4-2-3-1 as well, it can leave us undermanned in midfield, in transition. Two strikers can do just the same except worse unless you get the system and shape on point. Think we need a 4-3-3 and have thought so for some while.

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12 hours ago, Pezo said:

What other teams play with 2 up front these days? It usually leads to being weak in midfield compared to opposition that have 1 up front. If we want to play 2 up front then we need midfielders that can read the game like nostradamus and a striker to with Fammy. 

Indeed.

In fact, looking back over LJ’s reign, when have we played our best football;

18/19 - I’d argue that we didn’t play good football all season in the main, was more attritional, but effective

17/18 - the spell with Reid and Paterson in a 460 / 4141, with 4 defenders and 6 fluid attackers, even Pack getting advanced

16/17 - Tammy on his own with Tomlin (on occasion) or Paterson, or Taylor helping out the midfield

15/16 - Kodjia with Tomlin (Loan version) pulling the strings

I’m probably being a bit divisive, but the common denominator for me is a quick, mobile, striker.  With Fam, as much as he helps us go a bit more direct, he can stifle the fluid passing that allows us to play a good brand of football.  Fam is at his best with a partner.

For me LJ needs to go with whatever system he thinks is best and pick the players for it.  No clubs in the bag.

I’m not huge on formations, but if he wants Fam in the side, give him a partner....maybe go 4132-narrow (Pack the 1).

If he insists on 1 up top, to protect the midfield from being over-run, then perhaps our £5.3m man is relegated to Plan B.

Squads evolve.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree, it puts a big burden on Diedhiou.

In a wider, more floating position higher say a 4-3-3 I think as part of that out wide he could contribute more- not in this shape though.

Too early to say IMO.

Agreed.

Don't think it works so well at this level now but we'll see- we hit a lot of crosses in last season but as tactics and defences evolve, this becomes easier to play. Sitll couldn't have been much worse than yesterday!

The highest average % possession in the League last season- what do you mean by "direct" exactly? Always or usually associated Bielsa with a fairly possession minded but certainly high pressing game- they may go direct at times but certainly not as a Plan A. If you mean combining technically sound with direct and high press then maybe.

So long as we don't get bypassed in midfield again- have a problem with this 4-2-3-1 as well, it can leave us undermanned in midfield, in transition. Two strikers can do just the same except worse unless you get the system and shape on point. Think we need a 4-3-3 and have thought so for some while.

Spot on.....plus I always think that there’s a tendency for the wide players in the 3 to have starting positions ‘in possession’ that are too high, meaning passing angles are tougher for both Pack and Brownhill, but also the full-backs.  A well-drilled 4231 will have squarer passing options early in possession patterns, and advance until you can then get you’re wide players either making the run in behind their opposing full-back, or come short and get your own full-backs on the overlap.  We did that occasionally last season.  The Marlon Pack, quarterback ‘bomb’ pass over the full-backs head to a high positioned “winger” is truly Hollywood.  Let’s play shorter and cleverer.

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Indeed.

In fact, looking back over LJ’s reign, when have we played our best football;

18/19 - I’d argue that we didn’t play good football all season in the main, was more attritional, but effective

17/18 - the spell with Reid and Paterson in a 460 / 4141, with 4 defenders and 6 fluid attackers, even Pack getting advanced

16/17 - Tammy on his own with Tomlin (on occasion) or Paterson, or Taylor helping out the midfield

15/16 - Kodjia with Tomlin (Loan version) pulling the strings

I’m probably being a bit divisive, but the common denominator for me is a quick, mobile, striker.  With Fam, as much as he helps us go a bit more direct, he can stifle the fluid passing that allows us to play a good brand of football.  Fam is at his best with a partner.

For me LJ needs to go with whatever system he thinks is best and pick the players for it.  No clubs in the bag.

I’m not huge on formations, but if he wants Fam in the side, give him a partner....maybe go 4132-narrow (Pack the 1).

If he insists on 1 up top, to protect the midfield from being over-run, then perhaps our £5.3m man is relegated to Plan B.

Squads evolve.

Totally agree, it is largely ineffective with Diedhiou as the striker.

We desperately need a striker incoming - or play Weimann in the role and have some movement and pressing.

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I think it's a set up that will serve us well whilst playing away from home like it did last season.

Regretfully I think if it continues it will mean another season of frustrating results at home.

I don't know what the answer is but we just seem to lack that Plan B to change a match that isn't going well. Still, got to stay optimistic, I believe we have the nucleus of a great squad just need those last couple of signings to give it that final lift.

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38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree, it puts a big burden on Diedhiou.

In a wider, more floating position higher say a 4-3-3 I think as part of that out wide he could contribute more- not in this shape though.

Too early to say IMO.

Agreed.

Don't think it works so well at this level now but we'll see- we hit a lot of crosses in last season but as tactics and defences evolve, this becomes easier to play. Sitll couldn't have been much worse than yesterday!

The highest average % possession in the League last season- what do you mean by "direct" exactly? Always or usually associated Bielsa with a fairly possession minded but certainly high pressing game- they may go direct at times but certainly not as a Plan A. If you mean combining technically sound with direct and high press then maybe.

So long as we don't get bypassed in midfield again- have a problem with this 4-2-3-1 as well, it can leave us undermanned in midfield, in transition. Two strikers can do just the same except worse unless you get the system and shape on point. Think we need a 4-3-3 and have thought so for some while.

I'm no tactical expert but for at least the first 20 mins yesterday I thought we did play 4-3-3. FD in the middle with NE right and AW left. Once we went two behind it seemed that Szmodics was pushing up to play off FD at times with NE dropping back to make it look like two up front.

Several posters have said they weren't impressed by Szmodics. I was encouraged by the way he got beyond FD at times, we haven't had a midfielder doing that for years. Unfortunately no-one played a decent ball through for him. They were generally overhit. Pack was depressingly poor with the ball. Carried on with his poor second half of last season form.

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29 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Negative shit? Just outside the play offs last year?

come on....

The issue is that away from home we were excellent last season, a formation that is difficult to break down, hard working, defence minded, it worked a treat.

At home we were far to cautious and struggled to take the game to teams, we need a Palmer type and a goalscorer with the reigns let off a bit, I would argue we were a bit negative at home last season. Getting that balance is difficult.

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree, it puts a big burden on Diedhiou.

In a wider, more floating position higher say a 4-3-3 I think as part of that out wide he could contribute more- not in this shape though.

Too early to say IMO.

Agreed.

Don't think it works so well at this level now but we'll see- we hit a lot of crosses in last season but as tactics and defences evolve, this becomes easier to play. Sitll couldn't have been much worse than yesterday!

The highest average % possession in the League last season- what do you mean by "direct" exactly? Always or usually associated Bielsa with a fairly possession minded but certainly high pressing game- they may go direct at times but certainly not as a Plan A. If you mean combining technically sound with direct and high press then maybe.

So long as we don't get bypassed in midfield again- have a problem with this 4-2-3-1 as well, it can leave us undermanned in midfield, in transition. Two strikers can do just the same except worse unless you get the system and shape on point. Think we need a 4-3-3 and have thought so for some while.

when i say 'direct' i mean that too often we don't take the half chances when they are there - in that moment.

the ball is played in and we always seem to want to pass it out wide rather than go for goal - hit it early, several times yesterday the ball was there to be hit and we chose instead to pass it wide, or lay it off, and that moment is gone.

 

is it lack of confidence? or that BCFC autopilot that always pushes the ball wide ;)

lets be more single minded about hitting the target.

fancy passing (usually until we lose possession) doesn't win games!

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49 minutes ago, Antman said:

when i say 'direct' i mean that too often we don't take the half chances when they are there - in that moment.

the ball is played in and we always seem to want to pass it out wide rather than go for goal - hit it early, several times yesterday the ball was there to be hit and we chose instead to pass it wide, or lay it off, and that moment is gone.

 

is it lack of confidence? or that BCFC autopilot that always pushes the ball wide ;)

lets be more single minded about hitting the target.

fancy passing (usually until we lose possession) doesn't win games!

I think this is the reason for a lot of our frustrations TBH. We seem to always want to walk it into the net rather than take an opportunity earlier. I think Bobby was the last player who was really prepared to take a shot early.

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22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Spot on.....plus I always think that there’s a tendency for the wide players in the 3 to have starting positions ‘in possession’ that are too high, meaning passing angles are tougher for both Pack and Brownhill, but also the full-backs.  A well-drilled 4231 will have squarer passing options early in possession patterns, and advance until you can then get you’re wide players either making the run in behind their opposing full-back, or come short and get your own full-backs on the overlap.  We did that occasionally last season.  The Marlon Pack, quarterback ‘bomb’ pass over the full-backs head to a high positioned “winger” is truly Hollywood.  Let’s play shorter and cleverer.

Agreed, shorter passing is the way, Hollywood passing not- an occasional tactic maybe, catch out the opposition when pressed high but use it sparingly.

Agreed on the well drilled 4-2-3-1 having better passing patterns, options when in possession- the way we are now built too with the attacking yet technically sound full backs, the Webster-Kalas axis, Maenpaa or Bentley behind and Pack just in front means we are now built perfectly for the shorter, more patient and through the thirds possession top heavy passing. Certainly at this level.

The one way I should caveat is if we had the right sort of midfielder as the central of the '3'- e.g. Johansen who could just as easily support say Weimann in a 4-4-1-1 or slip back into a 4-3-3 as well as that role in a 4-2-3-1 then I would be more favourable to it. Paterson doesn't have the awareness and flexibility, nor does Szmodics- Brownhill could develop into it maybe but the first two don't strike me as those sorts of players so much- to pull it off in a 4-2-3-1, a technically good midfielder who can slot into a '3', support the striker and indeed the 4-2-3-1 as default, all in the same game- not easy!

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