old_eastender Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Hope yesterday's game dlspells the myth that we need Pack in midfield because of the defensive cover he gives us! Play Walsh, at least he is always looking to move the ball quickly and can chase back and tackle when needed. Pack is too slow &.ponderous, kills any notion of swift counter attacks. Hope Cisse can get LJ to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen humphries Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 2 hours ago, old_eastender said: Hope yesterday's game dlspells the myth that we need Pack in midfield because of the defensive cover he gives us! Play Walsh, at least he is always looking to move the ball quickly and can chase back and tackle when needed. Pack is too slow &.ponderous, kills any notion of swift counter attacks. Hope Cisse can get LJ to see it. Totally agree with you, lj seems to love him you need pace in the championship unfortunately that’s marlons biggest weakness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 2 hours ago, old_eastender said: Hope yesterday's game dlspells the myth that we need Pack in midfield because of the defensive cover he gives us! Play Walsh, at least he is always looking to move the ball quickly and can chase back and tackle when needed. Pack is too slow &.ponderous, kills any notion of swift counter attacks. Hope Cisse can get LJ to see it. He certainly cannot cover the ground needed to play alongside Brownhill in a 442. It was worrying seeing Palace players running at our centre backs with Pack out of the game and getting further away from them as they charged towards our box. Not so sure Walsh is the answer yet, but he will be dodgy defensively like Pack, but at least give us something better on the ball with his quick passing with either foot. Think we really need another midfielder though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Pack has been overrated by City fans for a while now. Since January 2018 he has been generally poor. I’m sure people can come up with games where he has been effective but I’d say overall he’s easily been our worst regular starter. Slow, poor forward passer and cannot press. The DM role has moved on in recent years and the best are now much more dynamic than Pack. It seems a role where fans are easily pleased with though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Pack is no longer good enough to start for this football club IMO. If we want to progress we unfortunately need to leave the likes of Pack behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon79 Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 I cannot argue the fact that Pack is not the quickest. But I challenge any of you to take a ball over your local park on your own & pass it really quickly forward to someone! The movement is atrocious, players don’t create angles, but rather stand behind opposition players ( aggggghhhhhhh). & how Brownhill is consistently over looked at criticism on here baffles me. Because he covers a lot of ground & gets a few oohs when he shoots narrowly wide. But it’s Pack that gets the flack consistently. Just think a bit of perspective is needed. COYR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Simon79 said: I cannot argue the fact that Pack is not the quickest. But I challenge any of you to take a ball over your local park on your own & pass it really quickly forward to someone! The movement is atrocious, players don’t create angles, but rather stand behind opposition players ( aggggghhhhhhh). & how Brownhill is consistently over looked at criticism on here baffles me. Because he covers a lot of ground & gets a few oohs when he shoots narrowly wide. But it’s Pack that gets the flack consistently. Just think a bit of perspective is needed. COYR If you take a ball to the park on your own, you'll have no one to pass to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon79 Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Just now, AshtonGreat said: If you take ball to the park on your own, you'll have no one to pass to That’s my point. I know it’s Sunday morning, but come on! COYR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Simon79 said: That’s my point. I know it’s Sunday morning, but come on! COYR Oh sorry yeah, I was too eager to write my joke, I didn't read the next line :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olé Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 2 hours ago, old_eastender said: Hope yesterday's game dlspells the myth that we need Pack in midfield because of the defensive cover he gives us! To be fair the midfield yesterday was utterly bizarre as we had both full backs pushed up (as we seem to always do at the start of the season until we realise how exposed we are) but we didnt provide cover in front of the centre backs from midfield as we used to ask Pack to do last season, the few times we did it was Brownhill who dropped not Pack. It was very obvious and very strange. In the first half besides our two centre backs being completely exposed by this, it did look to me and those around me like Pack was the weak link as for all his qualities he is not quick to think or act and that is how Palace play. As a result we gave it away so often we were always going to get battered but it did mean Pack was never in position to cover the backline when they broke. When we finally got runners in the shape of O'Dowda and Paterson, Pack actually became much more influential to our play as there was finally movement and space and passes on that he could make in forward positions, where previously he was limited to feeding one of the full backs who I thought Palace nullified well. But yes, defensively Pack was simply never involved at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Trying to be fair, and not adding to the Marlon Pack bashing , he has done a good job over the years. It's similar to Flint , underrated and unappreciated when they arrived, both improved markedly over seasons and both give 100%. The problem with Pack is he has always lacked a little pace and the way the game is going (and he is getting older lets not forget ) this can be exploited. Being the only DMF also means he can be exposed, LJ has payed with formations to get over this , and Korey's long injury spells hasn't helped but many have been asking for a replacement or alternative for some time. The lad at Everton sounded the part, but after he got injured we seemed to forget that position again, I now that linked popped up again a few weeks ago but quickly disappeared. I do wonder if LJ doesn't want another body as he has Pack and Smith and another body would inflate an already sizeable squad. Personally I think we have lacked a genuine DMF for some time, but I also think Pack gets unfair criticism , he has been flogged to death over the last couple of years due to injuries leaving us light in the defensive/ball winning midfielder area. As others have said, we also suffer from a lack of options for the man in possession, if an average player has a choice of 3/4 passes he is going to look better than a good player with none. To me the options and alternative we have in midfield mean we only have one person to play that role at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red7 Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, Simon79 said: how Brownhill is consistently over looked at criticism on here baffles me. Because he covers a lot of ground & gets a few oohs when he shoots narrowly wide. But it’s Pack that gets the flack consistently. Just think a bit of perspective is needed. COYR This is Brownhill in a nutshell for me. Generally a fair bit of effort but, like Pack, no more than an ordinary player at this level at the moment. Can see Brownhill improving further, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampshire reds Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 i wish we could get a Barry Bannan type midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 And so it begins ................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey 6 Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 @Olé I noticed yesterday that Pack was further forward on many occasions than he usually would be & that when they broke he was nowhere to be seen. I find it strange that we still experiment with things like this, we all know Pack is slow, struggles to get back & that his best position for us is in front of the back four, winning headers & dictating play from deep. Brownhill & Pack don’t have any serious competition & that’s a huge problem imo. Both are comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 40 minutes ago, Olé said: To be fair the midfield yesterday was utterly bizarre as we had both full backs pushed up (as we seem to always do at the start of the season until we realise how exposed we are) but we didnt provide cover in front of the centre backs from midfield as we used to ask Pack to do last season, the few times we did it was Brownhill who dropped not Pack. It was very obvious and very strange. In the first half besides our two centre backs being completely exposed by this, it did look to me and those around me like Pack was the weak link as for all his qualities he is not quick to think or act and that is how Palace play. As a result we gave it away so often we were always going to get battered but it did mean Pack was never in position to cover the backline when they broke. When we finally got runners in the shape of O'Dowda and Paterson, Pack actually became much more influential to our play as there was finally movement and space and passes on that he could make in forward positions, where previously he was limited to feeding one of the full backs who I thought Palace nullified well. But yes, defensively Pack was simply never involved at all. Our midfield last season was a huge problem, certainly at home. And it is something LJ seems to be trying to fix, but by trying to find slightly different ways of using what we already have. He said last season how we missed Korey and maybe he should have brought in another midfielder in January. He said recently in an interview that 'maybe we need a midfielder.' I'm hoping after yesterday he realises we definitely need another midfielder. What I think will happen if he brings one in is he will play Pack alongside whoever the new holding midfielder is, Williams, Chalobah etc. He will then play Brownhill more advanced like attacking narrow right midfielder like he mainly played in 17/18 season. Maybe LJ will rotate systems, sometimes playing Brownhill, Pack and new midfielder all central in a 3. Maybe sometimes he goes 352. His favourite system though is 4411/442, which means Brownhill plays wide right if he brings in another midfielder, as he won't be dropping Pack. To be fair Pack in a slightly more advanced role with a Korey type tidying up can be effective, like against WBA last season, by far his best performance for us - he had Webster tidying up alongside him which meant he could link up with more attacking players. But Fam's lack of movement hardly suits Pack when trying to thread balls through. I rate our players, but I just don't think LJ gets all of them playing to their strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Robin Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 28 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said: i wish we could get a Barry Bannan type midfielder. It's been years since we had a midfielder of that quality....I really think this is the key position which needs filling. A stong midfield take pressure off the defence and creates more chances for the attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Everything about the game yesterday was wrong, to single out Pack - ir any other individual - is unfair. Given where we are (or should be) with our pre season preparations and where Palace should be (given the Prem kicks off later) I expected us to be as sharp and organised as them, but expected their superior quality to show. It was a huge disappointment the game went as it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogkev Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 The whole team was terrible, not just Pack. One thing though, this must surely be his last season with the club. Going forward, we have to replace him with better quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogkev Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 I mean, Webster was also appalling and looked like he wasn't interested by the game. Also looked a bit heavier and slower than I remember, to the extent I had to focus on his face to make sure it was actually Webster! Still, only a pre-season game; expect the players to be a lot sharper and motivated next weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robin Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess one of the causes of Pack's worsening - maybe the main one - is his constant involvement in the XI: the injury crisis of two seasons ago and the loss of Korey last year pushed him to play a huge amount of games, not helped by LJ's reluctance to give chances to Walsh, Palmer, etc.(maybe because of the differtent characteristics). A bit of rest or specific training could give some answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Until we get an upgrade on him we won’t make too 6 - it’s an influential position and he is too inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 58 minutes ago, Dan Robin said: Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess one of the causes of Pack's worsening - maybe the main one - is his constant involvement in the XI: the injury crisis of two seasons ago and the loss of Korey last year pushed him to play a huge amount of games, not helped by LJ's reluctance to give chances to Walsh, Palmer, etc.(maybe because of the differtent characteristics). A bit of rest or specific training could give some answers... Packs worsening is an opinion. That the Manager constantly plays him indicates the Manager considers that opinion invalid. Playing Walsh or Palmer do have different characteristics, so would not replace Pack in the holding role which is a consistent in Lee Johnsons football. Every player has specific training, and every player is involved in training in units which focuses on team tasks. An interesting point about these topics is that very few posters use specifics and state how they want the team to play. Ditching Pack, not good enough grr etc can mean fundamentally people don't like the foundation of Bristol City's approach - Pack is heavily involved in how City secure the ball and transition it through the first third. An opinion can be its something City do well and the shape and movement beyond this possession is where improvement is of more importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robin Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, Cowshed said: Packs worsening is an opinion. Well, in the last months of last season he was one of the worst players on the pitch, and I think that the mister saw too but didn't want to change things (tactics-different midfielders). In a more general perspective yes, it's a matter of opinions, and mine remains quite positive. Even if he's not a pure playmaker and neither a classic defensive midfielder, I still rate him...but maybe a less central role and more ''help'' in the midfield (the partnership with Korey was great, better than the one with Brownhill IMO) would benefit him and the team too. Only my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 19 minutes ago, Dan Robin said: Well, in the last months of last season he was one of the worst players on the pitch. In a more general perspective yes, it's a matter of opinions, and mine remains quite positive. Even if he's not a pure playmaker and neither a classic defensive midfielder, I still rate him...but maybe a less central role and more ''help'' in the midfield (the partnership with Korey was great, better than the one with Brownhill IMO) would benefit him and the team too. Only my opinion. Yes an opinion. I would argue he displays clear traits and successful one of a modern holding midfielder. And I use a distinction there - holding = the player receives, retains, releases, resets and repeats and that is the role in Mr Johnsons football. He can add a further r range but that is a smaller part of the team need v the first five r's = keep it and move it to those in more advanced positions. The player achieves this quite successfully his pass % x frequency is high at those r's. Here I am using specifics if people want a pure playmaker that is something entirely different but it also can necessitate a different BCFC approach and players in the XI. Change. City secure and move the ball well in the first third? If you agree then there is a question what happens in the second. Pack is just a link up but what happens in front of him? What are his r 's (receivers) doing? Posters observe lack of movement. Its a question of what with Pack you want to watch and be etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohhhshauntaylor Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 How Pack gets blamed ahead of Brownhill is beyond me. Marlon is unappreciated, and has been flogged to death over the last 18 months- I think his best games come when he’s more of a presser for us than just a sitter- look at the WBA 1st goal last season, or his goal vs Leeds in 2017, that’s him at his best. As mentioned earlier in the thread, we have such little movement ahead of him- this is the main issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelts Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 I love Pack but was thinking we needed something different last year . Palmer coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Ok, wasn’t there yesterday, so a few Qs: what formation did we start off with yesterday? Saw the line-up and assumed 4231....but may not have been from Reading this post was it Brownhill who gave the ball away straight from the re-start how big were our distances from back 4 to forwards? were out ‘forward three’ if it was a 4231, starting positions too high did Webster come forward with the ball if so, did Pack drop in, or make the extra man in midfield I wondered on Wednesday from tweets (wasn’t there either) that FGR exposed our CBs because Pack wasn’t there. Are we setting up differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Robin Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 9 hours ago, Cowshed said: Yes an opinion. I would argue he displays clear traits and successful one of a modern holding midfielder. And I use a distinction there - holding = the player receives, retains, releases, resets and repeats and that is the role in Mr Johnsons football. He can add a further r range but that is a smaller part of the team need v the first five r's = keep it and move it to those in more advanced positions. The player achieves this quite successfully his pass % x frequency is high at those r's. Here I am using specifics if people want a pure playmaker that is something entirely different but it also can necessitate a different BCFC approach and players in the XI. Change. City secure and move the ball well in the first third? If you agree then there is a question what happens in the second. Pack is just a link up but what happens in front of him? What are his r 's (receivers) doing? Posters observe lack of movement. Its a question of what with Pack you want to watch and be etc. Obviously you play with other ten players, so a failed pass can be also the receiver's fault, as it can happen with a disjointed defensive set-up...but I remember him doing many technical errors and showing bad positioning too, and that meaned not being at his usual level. That's why I thought about a fitness problem, more than a technical/tactical one. Yes ''holding'' describes well his role, and that's why I don't expect him to be a Fabregas ...but the midfield is the most important zone of the pitch, so in some matches I'd rather have a Walsh/Szmodics/Rowe 100% fit and a different tactical organization than a Pack at 50% because he is considered irrepleaceable, OR - if the transfer market helps - a difensive/holding midfielder to let him play more freely and spend less energies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon79 Posted July 28, 2019 Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 38 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Ok, wasn’t there yesterday, so a few Qs: what formation did we start off with yesterday? Saw the line-up and assumed 4231....but may not have been from Reading this post was it Brownhill who gave the ball away straight from the re-start how big were our distances from back 4 to forwards? were out ‘forward three’ if it was a 4231, starting positions too high did Webster come forward with the ball if so, did Pack drop in, or make the extra man in midfield I wondered on Wednesday from tweets (wasn’t there either) that FGR exposed our CBs because Pack wasn’t there. Are we setting up differently? I think it was 4-2-3-1 to start with, with Szmodics trying to get close to Fammy. For the 2nd goal, it was Szmodics who gave the ball away. Distances were fairly normal I would say, certainly didn’t feel like we sat back & created big gaps to be exploited. Webster did come forward with the ball a bit, got caught a couple of times, but again the options in front of him were just not there. Though there is no hiding, him & Kalas looked sloppy imo. The movement I felt was poor, thus meaning the player on the ball was having an extra touch & getting caught or going backwards. With regards Pack, it seemed to me that Brownhill dropped in & Pack at times was further forward, think this was a problem when play broke down. We set up very much like last season imo. For me Dave, it’s the same old problem. When we are static, we are poor. It often looks to me that we are almost to well drilled & coached ( I know how daft that sounds!). There’s no spark at times, until Patterson came on & I personally thought he.was our best player. Really poor performance. Possibly a good thing leading up to the opener. COYR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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