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old_eastender

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Pack gets so much stick it’s crazy - after a flucking friendly as well!! For what it’s worth :

Goal 1 - Pack was further forward, Brownhill was in the ‘holding’ position. Hunt & Kalas were switched over for some reason. Once the ball went behind Brownhill, he was slow to react, but Hunt went diving in, exposing Kalas & Webster. Their full back was then on overlap and Kalas was 1v2 due to Hunt having dived in.  Conclusion - nothing to do with Pack. 

Goal 2 - Szmodics passes straight to opposition from kick off. Conclusion - nothing to do with Pack. 

Goal 3 - Brownhill again the deepest CM, but not in intelligent enough position to be providing relevant cover, meaning Dasilva has tucked in, and Weimann has dropped into a left back position. This meant Szmodics had too much ground to make to close down the ball into the box. Prior to the ball in, Hunt switched off and let the scorer run past him, thus getting between Hunt & Kalas. Quite what Kalas did with the flight of the ball I’ll never know, should have easily cleared it. Conclusion - Nothing to do with Pack. 

Goal 4 - Pack is deeper this time and in a nice protective position. O’Dowda and Brownhill between them put zero pressure on the ball (possession three times within 15 yds of our box with 9 men behind ball). Far too much time for good players to find space and a pass. O’Dowda initially follows his man back but then turns his back and loses him. That’s all it took, split second for the forward pass to come in. Webster then has to commit to a challenge on what was O’Dowda’s man. Lucky deflection and the ball pops in behind where Webster would have been had he not had to cover CODS ass. Conclusion - Nothing to do with a Pack. 

Goal 5 - This time Pack is again in a deeper position, in between the 2 CB’s, 8 yds ahead of them.  He is in a line level with the 6 yd box. Hunt puts zero pressure on the ball carrier. Brownhill and his man are in a line level with the 18yd box. Brownhills man runs in behind him, but Brownhill decides not to go with him, instead thinking that a 15 yd pass back to the full back is the more dangerous option he ought to cover. He points at the runner, in a suggestion to Pack to come over and cover him. But Brownhill was with the man and Pack is 12 yards away, correctly sat between his CB’s. Hunts zero pressure allows a simple ball into the runner, who puts in an easy cross to a free man on the 6 yd box - the position Pack would’ve been in had he not had to come across and try to close down Brownhills runner. Conclusion - Nothing to do with Pack. 

So, overall, all 5 goals were nothing to do with Pack. In fact, in order of blame, I’d say Hunt, Brownhill, Kalas, O’Dowda, Szmodics. 

But we’re not gonna lay any blame on anyone in a pre-season friendly are we.  

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13 hours ago, Simon79 said:

I cannot argue the fact that Pack is not the quickest. But I challenge any of you to take a ball over your local park on your own & pass it really quickly forward to someone! The movement is atrocious, players don’t create angles, but rather stand behind opposition players ( aggggghhhhhhh). & how Brownhill is consistently over looked at criticism on here baffles me. Because he covers a lot of ground & gets a few oohs when he shoots narrowly wide. But it’s Pack that gets the flack consistently. Just think a bit of perspective is needed. COYR 

Spot on - at the start of last season, when Weimann was up front on his own, Pack was reading his runs superbly - it all went wrong for Pack when Fammy was shoe-horned back in and got in Weimann’s way and the killer passes dried up, cos Fammy just can’t read them like Weimann did ... have a look from 02:35 here - perfect example of what Pack can do:

 

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17 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Hope yesterday's game dlspells the myth that we need Pack in midfield because of the defensive cover he gives us!

Play Walsh, at least he is always looking to move the ball quickly and can chase back and tackle when needed. Pack is too slow &.ponderous, kills any notion of swift counter attacks. 

Hope Cisse can get LJ to see it. 

Couldnt agree more. Blokes useless at championship level

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15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks @Simon79 and @Harry for the detailed responses. ??

So was this a bit of an experiment to see if we could get Brownhill to take more defensive positional responsibility and Pack a bit more freedom, in effect allowing them to BOTH play more complete CM roles?

Might not try that next week!

@Olé posted a post match summary highlighting the unusual Pack and Brownhill roles Dave

Match Day thread possibly

I wasn’t there but it seems bizarre that Pack has firmly become the fall guy , for a 5 goal stuffing , yet , it appears didn’t even play his normal holding role yesterday !

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11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

@Olé posted a post match summary highlighting the unusual Pack and Brownhill roles Dave

Match Day thread possibly

I wasn’t there but it seems bizarre that Pack has firmly become the fall guy , for a 5 goal stuffing , yet , it appears didn’t even play his normal holding role yesterday !

I had a quick look at pg9 of the Match day thread and was too frightened to read the previous 8 pages.?

In some ways, if that was the case, LJ will be throwing that idea in the bin.

4141 next week....

Bentley,

Hunt (or Vyner) | Kalas | Webster | Dasilva 

Pack

Perm any 4

Diedhiou

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11 hours ago, Dan Robin said:

Obviously you play with other ten players, so a failed pass can be also the receiver's fault, as it can happen with a disjointed defensive set-up...but I remember him doing many technical errors and showing bad positioning too, and that meaned not being at his usual level. That's why I thought about a fitness problem, more than a technical/tactical one.

Yes ''holding'' describes well his role, and that's why I don't expect him to be a Fabregas ? ...but the midfield is the most important zone of the pitch, so in some matches I'd rather have a Walsh/Szmodics/Rowe 100% fit and a different tactical organization than a Pack at 50% because he is considered irrepleaceable, OR - if the transfer market helps - a difensive/holding midfielder to let him play more freely and spend less energies.

 

And that is why I use the term holding, there are differing forms of deep lying central midfielder. I would look to the player to hold in a 4-1-4-1 or other variants. I look upon the back four and Pack as pretty good. A solid base of possession to build from. A principle of the teams approach of keep the ball and build from the back is met. Its good. A positive and was last season.

Within these threads are lots of words wanting change for?? Dunno posters are very poor at articulating what it is they feel is an improvement. The opening post mentions counter attacking but not how the poster would want to transition to counter. City are not a high pressing/counter pressing team .. They frequently drop off into a midfield block and screen etc. Does the poster want the team to penetrate quickly or reset regained possession - They are differing things which require differing skill sets in players and long term focus in training. 

What actually is people want to change Pack for? I suspect its the actual role Pack occupies people do not like.

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34 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

What actually is people want to change Pack for? I suspect its the actual role Pack occupies people do not like.

We've just brought in a coach who does the holding role in the way that would be great for us now. Khalifa Cisse was an example of the type of player I want in this position.

So what do I want from the role that Marlon Pack doesn't offer? Pace, power combined with the intelligence to break up play, to keep the ball moving quickly.

Marlon has some good passes forward, he has vision. But it isn't consistent enough IMO to give up the physicality, defensive ability and momentum of breaks that he kills. It's not the role. It's the player in the role. In this exact role (we don't know his instructions ofc!) you need to be more physical than he is. Or better than he is at what he does.

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

And that is why I use the term holding, there are differing forms of deep lying central midfielder. I would look to the player to hold in a 4-1-4-1 or other variants. I look upon the back four and Pack as pretty good. A solid base of possession to build from. A principle of the teams approach of keep the ball and build from the back is met. Its good. A positive and was last season.

Within these threads are lots of words wanting change for?? Dunno posters are very poor at articulating what it is they feel is an improvement. The opening post mentions counter attacking but not how the poster would want to transition to counter. City are not a high pressing/counter pressing team .. They frequently drop off into a midfield block and screen etc. Does the poster want the team to penetrate quickly or reset regained possession - They are differing things which require differing skill sets in players and long term focus in training. 

What actually is people want to change Pack for? I suspect its the actual role Pack occupies people do not like.

I think there are two Marlon Pack’s.  The one the vast majority of us see at home and the one less see away.

Pack sits in front of the 2 CBs away and in typical away team style takes few risks, and barely ventures beyond his fellow midfielders.  He condenses space so that the opposition can’t get easy balls into the front players or find pockets that would expose our CBs.  This role was concreted in after we got exposed by West Brom away last season....when actually we played some delightful football.  But seeing Pack run past in the right back position by Barnes as we got caught on the counter, meant LJ coining the phrase about Marlon needing to play in the “cage”, i.e. restricting where he could go.

At home, whilst he does the defensive stuff as well as he does away, we lose his passing ability as it is all from too deep a position.  Either teams sit in behind, or they press, and where Marlon suffers is that our midfielders tend to be too far ahead the ball making passing angles easy to defend / intercept.  With Webster (and Kalas - who can play too) there is less need for Marlon to get the ball off of the keeper every time, he can give them good angles.  When Webster marauds forward, admirable that Pack fills his spot, he could give us the extra man in midfield...as Webster can end up running into a cul-de-sac.  I don’t mind if he goes 50:50 with an eye on covering Webster if we lose the ball, but he offered no passing option last season.

One final thing.  Why don’t we use him in the opposition box.  He is a good header of the ball, and another tall player to cause problems.  For me he could be as effective as Rennie, either get flick-ons or picking up flicks from a Webster or Kalas.  He could easily get 3 or 4 more goals per season for us.

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Some very good posts here, showing that there are plenty of football intelligentsia on this forum.

My take on Pack is that he is almost perfect for the defensive, holding role away from home. He stays just in front of back four, or more accurately, the two central defenders with two full backs deeper than they are at home.

At home, if he plays the same way, it lessens our ability to break down massed defences. If he ventures forward, his lack of pace means that if the other side break quickly, he is totally out of the game! Hence, some claiming on this thread, that it was others who were at fault. Maybe so and maybe not.

Solution?

1. Find a quicker defensive holding midfielder for home games.

2. As it, IMO, is the second most important position in the team, we need to develop or recruit. Developing could take years and recruiting will cost a big bundle of cash.

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13 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Some very good posts here, showing that there are plenty of football intelligentsia on this forum.

My take on Pack is that he is almost perfect for the defensive, holding role away from home. He stays just in front of back four, or more accurately, the two central defenders with two full backs deeper than they are at home.

At home, if he plays the same way, it lessens our ability to break down massed defences. If he ventures forward, his lack of pace means that if the other side break quickly, he is totally out of the game! Hence, some claiming on this thread, that it was others who were at fault. Maybe so and maybe not.

Solution?

1. Find a quicker defensive holding midfielder for home games.

2. As it, IMO, is the second most important position in the team, we need to develop or recruit. Developing could take years and recruiting will cost a big bundle of cash.

This kind of thing is coming up a lot though.

Famara alone up front. Weimann out wide. Pack at home in a two. Hunt vs pacey wide players.

I'm a big LJ supporter and what he's done so far in improving us year on year. But, he keeps putting a few players in a position where they don't succeed.

We need a central midfielder, we need a striker. Everyone knows it including LJ. Develop or recruit as you say. Everyone is getting impatient for us to do either.

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As it currently stands, LJ has brought in Rowe to cover CM and LB.  I think Rowe is a really astute signing, because technically he is capable of playing at this level (and free!).  But he can’t deputise for Pack in the same way.  Nor can Walsh, nor can Morrell.  So if Lee wants a Pack-type in DM, we don’t have it.  Webster is not that player before anyone asks (imho).

With the ball carrying and passing abilities of Webster from the back-line, and Kalas a better ball-player than Flint, is there the reliance on a “quarterback” DM.  Could we just use a mobile, interceptor, who nibbles and niggles in the DM role...a Championship N’Golo Kante, or Korey Smith mk2.  Danny Williams still unattached!!!  Joe Williams???

I do rate Pack for his defensive cover and in a different type of midfield (maybe a 3), I think we could see his creative skills too (remember passes to Weimann v Bolton and Bryan v Man Utd), but he can’t do both.  Happy for him to play the less expansive role away from home.

Has the time come to change the way we are reliant on Marlon?  I don’t know.

Would it help us gain those extra points needed to make the play-offs or better?  I don’t know.

But at home our overall midfield is not cohesive.  Is that in part Josh Brownhill’s fault.  As good a player as he is, he still has too many games that he plays in flashes rather than the 90.

At the end of the day, I think if you could take the best bits of Marlon, Korey and Josh to make 2 players you’d have a decent midfield.

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2 hours ago, Prinny said:

We've just brought in a coach who does the holding role in the way that would be great for us now. Khalifa Cisse was an example of the type of player I want in this position.

So what do I want from the role that Marlon Pack doesn't offer? Pace, power combined with the intelligence to break up play, to keep the ball moving quickly.

Marlon has some good passes forward, he has vision. But it isn't consistent enough IMO to give up the physicality, defensive ability and momentum of breaks that he kills. It's not the role. It's the player in the role. In this exact role (we don't know his instructions ofc!) you need to be more physical than he is. Or better than he is at what he does.

You've just described Korey Smith. 

As soon as he's back i will be very happy with him and JB in the middle

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On 28/07/2019 at 08:30, Simon79 said:

I cannot argue the fact that Pack is not the quickest. But I challenge any of you to take a ball over your local park on your own & pass it really quickly forward to someone! The movement is atrocious, players don’t create angles, but rather stand behind opposition players ( aggggghhhhhhh). & how Brownhill is consistently over looked at criticism on here baffles me. Because he covers a lot of ground & gets a few oohs when he shoots narrowly wide. But it’s Pack that gets the flack consistently. Just think a bit of perspective is needed. COYR 

I went over the park at 7 am, it was quiet,  I was on my own.  I managed to pass the ball forward extremely quickly, but the only recipients of my defence splitting passes were a springer spaniel called Rosey and a council workman named Stan,  your right about a lack of movement, it wasn't great........... Rosie definitely has potential, but needs to stop standing behind trees ?

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16 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Spot on - at the start of last season, when Weimann was up front on his own, Pack was reading his runs superbly - it all went wrong for Pack when Fammy was shoe-horned back in and got in Weimann’s way and the killer passes dried up, cos Fammy just can’t read them like Weimann did ... have a look from 02:35 here - perfect example of what Pack can do:

 

I remember LJ commented about the reverse pass being worked on in training.  Seem to remember him trying it a couple more times but to less effect. Wonder if it’s confidence, runners not creating options and instructions to stay in the cage  why  that type of craft seem to dry up from him as season went on .

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On 28/07/2019 at 11:57, Cowshed said:

Yes an opinion.

I would argue he displays clear traits and successful one of a modern holding midfielder. And I use a distinction there - holding = the player receives, retains, releases, resets and repeats and that is the role in Mr Johnsons football. He can add a further r range but that is a smaller part of the team need v the first five r's = keep it and move it to those in more advanced positions. The player achieves this quite successfully his pass % x frequency is high at those r's. 

Here I am using specifics if people want a pure playmaker that is something entirely different but it also can necessitate a different BCFC approach and players in the XI. Change.

City secure and move the ball well in the first third? If you agree then there is a question what happens in the second. Pack is just a link up but what happens in front of him? What are his r 's (receivers) doing? Posters observe lack of movement. 

Its a question of what with Pack you want to watch and be etc. 

Well this is a breath of fresh air reading this absolutely depressing thread.

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6 hours ago, Prinny said:

We've just brought in a coach who does the holding role in the way that would be great for us now. Khalifa Cisse was an example of the type of player I want in this position.

So what do I want from the role that Marlon Pack doesn't offer? Pace, power combined with the intelligence to break up play, to keep the ball moving quickly.

Marlon has some good passes forward, he has vision. But it isn't consistent enough IMO to give up the physicality, defensive ability and momentum of breaks that he kills. It's not the role. It's the player in the role. In this exact role (we don't know his instructions ofc!) you need to be more physical than he is. Or better than he is at what he does.

Khalifa Cisse was not a holding midfielder. 

?

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On 28/07/2019 at 09:12, Harry said:

And so it begins ...................

Not sure if it ever ends mate does it?! I’m with you in the main regarding Pack. I do think if we invest more in midfield it will help both the team and Pack though doubt it will keep the vultures off his back

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1 hour ago, BCFC1959 said:

Not sure if it ever ends mate does it?! I’m with you in the main regarding Pack. I do think if we invest more in midfield it will help both the team and Pack though doubt it will keep the vultures off his back

Absolutely mate. 

For what it’s worth, I’ve never said that we should be content with Pack, and if a better player is available we of course should look to upgrade him. But the availability of such an upgrade is rare, and they’d cost a fair whack. 

We should be very happy with the service he’s given us over 6 years now. 

Plus, in the same mould as LJ was when he was here (much maligned and unrespected by many), I wouldn’t be surprised if Marlon managed is one day. 

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