Playing without a striker

[Will Rollason]

Bear with me. Not on here that much anymore.

Has anyone asked LJ why after playing some of the best football I've seen at the gate, getting past Man utd and to the top of the league without a striker we then reverted to playing with one? Not that we've done badly and I like Fammy but... 

[Littlesh*t]

We did play with a striker though, we had Bobby Reid upfront. Yes in previous seasons he played midfield but that season he was upfront 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Watched some of those highlights a while ago, from that spell.

It was a very fluid and flexible shape.

Notionally a 4-4-1-1, it could and just as easily did morph into a 4-6-0, a 4-4-2-0, a 4-3-3, could also change though don't know if so common in-game to a back 3. That sort of shape needs very specific players though- not so much in terms of ability though that too, but tactically.

Eg Wright and Magnússon at FB cannot be replicated so easily or indeed in general with Hunt and Da Silva at Full back. The advantage of having them there is that they could quite easily drop back in, come back inside- if you play Wright as an orthodox Full back in a standard back 4 he'd be all at sea though, likewise if you tried to get Hunt and Da Silva to do the job of Wright and Magnússon well they're more standard in style so that wouldn't go so well!

Bryan was LM/LWM, whatever you want to call it he wasn't at LB. Magnússon and Bryan on the left side looks like 2 LBs but gives a certain defensive stability- and masks some of Bryan's defensive question marks. Da Silva possibly could play the Bryan role in the current shape? Not the Magnússon role though, not as it stands.

Brownhill and Wright on the right was quite narrow and yet compact- both could come inside as and when required- looks like a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1, but he can drift in to help Pack and Smith as and when- he's comfortable centrally. Asymmetrical left and right sides- Wright and Brownhill on one side, Magnússon and Bryan on the other.,

Reid behind Paterson helps further- as well as the obvious striking capability, his combination of work rate, technical ability and past as a midfielder could help him get back in- both higher up and perhaps dropping back a bit if necessary in certain phases- again winning that numerical battle, condensing the space. It also had the distinct advantage of having Paterson in his best position- a '10'- while the compact shape behind him, the ease with which to fill certain areas possibly helped to cover up some of his defensive deficiencies- the intense energy of Reid in and around him helped too.

Backend of last season I did wonder if it was quite possible to do this but upgraded in certain areas, to replicate this.

My initial blueprint for this was (before any talk of adding Bentley, Szmodics or the O'Dowda contract issue coming to light etc):

               Maenpaa

Wright Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Smith Da Silva

    Paterson OR O'Dowda

               Weimann

With the departure of Kelly, that now looks somewhat trickier- like I say an orthodox full back in that role just doesn't have the right characteristics- maybe Da Silva can surprise and come inside, maybe Eliasson can perform the Bryan role, or perhaps O'Dowda can but the balance is just lacking with a mere one position out of place. IMO anyway.

[wendyredredrobin]

With Fammy up front, it feels like we are playing 10 v 11.  Not so when we play without him.  Personally, I don't think you want to play with passengers if you want to compete at the top of this league.

When Bobby was up front, it was like having an extra player on the pitch.

[Fpcity]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Watched some of those highlights a while ago, from that spell.

It was a very fluid and flexible shape.

Notionally a 4-4-1-1, it could and just as easily did morph into a 4-6-0, a 4-4-2-0, a 4-3-3, could also change though don't know if so common in-game to a back 3. That sort of shape needs very specific players though- not so much in terms of ability though that too, but tactically.

Eg Wright and Magnússon at FB cannot be replicated so easily or indeed in general with Hunt and Da Silva at Full back. The advantage of having them there is that they could quite easily drop back in, come back inside- if you play Wright as an orthodox Full back in a standard back 4 he'd be all at sea though, likewise if you tried to get Hunt and Da Silva to do the job of Wright and Magnússon well they're more standard in style so that wouldn't go so well!

Bryan was LM/LWM, whatever you want to call it he wasn't at LB. Magnússon and Bryan on the left side looks like 2 LBs but gives a certain defensive stability- and masks some of Bryan's defensive question marks. Da Silva possibly could play the Bryan role in the current shape? Not the Magnússon role though, not as it stands.

Brownhill and Wright on the right was quite narrow and yet compact- both could come inside as and when required- looks like a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1, but he can drift in to help Pack and Smith as and when- he's comfortable centrally. Asymmetrical left and right sides- Wright and Brownhill on one side, Magnússon and Bryan on the other.,

Reid behind Paterson helps further- as well as the obvious striking capability, his combination of work rate, technical ability and past as a midfielder could help him get back in- both higher up and perhaps dropping back a bit if necessary in certain phases- again winning that numerical battle, condensing the space. It also had the distinct advantage of having Paterson in his best position- a '10'- while the compact shape behind him, the ease with which to fill certain areas possibly helped to cover up some of his defensive deficiencies- the intense energy of Reid in and around him helped too.

Backend of last season I did wonder if it was quite possible to do this but upgraded in certain areas, to replicate this.

My initial blueprint for this was (before any talk of adding Bentley, Szmodics or the O'Dowda contract issue coming to light etc):

               Maenpaa

Wright Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Smith Da Silva

    Paterson OR O'Dowda

               Weimann

With the departure of Kelly, that now looks somewhat trickier- like I say an orthodox full back in that role just doesn't have the right characteristics- maybe Da Silva can surprise and come inside, maybe Eliasson can perform the Bryan role, or perhaps O'Dowda can but the balance is just lacking with a mere one position out of place. IMO anyway.

I said on a thread yesterday about this and how our best football was when Diedhiou wasn't in the team. Having Weimann up front with Patterson, Sammy playing behind. Would allow us to play more fluid football which I think Johnson would like us to do but can't with Diedhiou up top. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, paul_fox said:

I said on a thread yesterday about this and how our best football was when Diedhiou wasn't in the team. Having Weimann up front with Patterson, Sammy playing behind. Would allow us to play more fluid football which I think Johnson would like us to do but can't with Diedhiou up top. 

Agreed- Weimann as the lone striker is something I've been keen on us exploring for a while tbh, last Autumn during our dodgy spell I'm a bit surprised we didn't try it.

[Fpcity]

30 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

With Fammy up front, it feels like we are playing 10 v 11.  Not so when we play without him.  Personally, I don't think you want to play with passengers if you want to compete at the top of this league.

When Bobby was up front, it was like having an extra player on the pitch.

Having Reid and Patterson up top gave us 2 players pressing from the front. In that season Diedhiou came back from injury our form dropped, it basically went down to just Reid doing it so gaps opened up and made it easier for teams to play against. 

[Fpcity]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed- Weimann as the lone striker is something I've been keen on us exploring for a while tbh, last Autumn during our dodgy spell I'm a bit surprised we didn't try it.

I like him as a striker. People say he doesn't score but he still got double figures I think? 5 in 5 at the start when up top before being put wide for the majority of the season to accommodate Diedhiou. Then when he played up top again towards te end of the season he got that hat trick and 1 against WBA. 

Patterson gets some stick but when playing behind a decent mobile striker he can be good. Was so with Reid and Tammy when he came in for Tomlin. Being played out on the left doesn't do him any favours. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, paul_fox said:

I like him as a striker. People say he doesn't score but he still got double figures I think? 5 in 5 at the start when up top before being put wide for the majority of the season to accommodate Diedhiou. Then when he played up top again towards te end of the season he got that hat trick and 1 against WBA. 

He's the closest we have to Reid, stylistically IMO.

Thought him with Paterson behind could be a way to replicate- now maybe Weimann centrally in a fluid, full of movment 4-3-3, something like that.

[Fpcity]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He's the closest we have to Reid, stylistically IMO.

Thought him with Paterson behind could be a way to replicate- now maybe Weimann centrally in a fluid, full of movment 4-3-3, something like that.

People always say that the one thing defenders hate is pace. Marking Diedhiou can be easy at times. Having 3 fast players all interchanging would be a lot more or a challenge for defenders 

Diedhiou has won us points particularly away from home in single goal wins so not knocking him but I get the feeling Johnson would like to play like Man City with small technical players and he's kind of the odd one out and doesn't have the speed of thought or legs to do that role 

[Murraysrightplum]

Different clubs in the bag. The Johnsons tend to favour a driver though...

[054123]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Watched some of those highlights a while ago, from that spell.

It was a very fluid and flexible shape.

Notionally a 4-4-1-1, it could and just as easily did morph into a 4-6-0, a 4-4-2-0, a 4-3-3, could also change though don't know if so common in-game to a back 3. That sort of shape needs very specific players though- not so much in terms of ability though that too, but tactically.

Eg Wright and Magnússon at FB cannot be replicated so easily or indeed in general with Hunt and Da Silva at Full back. The advantage of having them there is that they could quite easily drop back in, come back inside- if you play Wright as an orthodox Full back in a standard back 4 he'd be all at sea though, likewise if you tried to get Hunt and Da Silva to do the job of Wright and Magnússon well they're more standard in style so that wouldn't go so well!

Bryan was LM/LWM, whatever you want to call it he wasn't at LB. Magnússon and Bryan on the left side looks like 2 LBs but gives a certain defensive stability- and masks some of Bryan's defensive question marks. Da Silva possibly could play the Bryan role in the current shape? Not the Magnússon role though, not as it stands.

Brownhill and Wright on the right was quite narrow and yet compact- both could come inside as and when required- looks like a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1, but he can drift in to help Pack and Smith as and when- he's comfortable centrally. Asymmetrical left and right sides- Wright and Brownhill on one side, Magnússon and Bryan on the other.,

Reid behind Paterson helps further- as well as the obvious striking capability, his combination of work rate, technical ability and past as a midfielder could help him get back in- both higher up and perhaps dropping back a bit if necessary in certain phases- again winning that numerical battle, condensing the space. It also had the distinct advantage of having Paterson in his best position- a '10'- while the compact shape behind him, the ease with which to fill certain areas possibly helped to cover up some of his defensive deficiencies- the intense energy of Reid in and around him helped too.

Backend of last season I did wonder if it was quite possible to do this but upgraded in certain areas, to replicate this.

My initial blueprint for this was (before any talk of adding Bentley, Szmodics or the O'Dowda contract issue coming to light etc):

               Maenpaa

Wright Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Smith Da Silva

    Paterson OR O'Dowda

               Weimann

With the departure of Kelly, that now looks somewhat trickier- like I say an orthodox full back in that role just doesn't have the right characteristics- maybe Da Silva can surprise and come inside, maybe Eliasson can perform the Bryan role, or perhaps O'Dowda can but the balance is just lacking with a mere one position out of place. IMO anyway.

This is wn excellent point.!if you go back and watch highlights from the start of that 2027-18 season, the quickness and fluidity with which we broke and scored was frightening.

It didn’t really matter who the ‘striker’ was. Because we had full backs or midfielders bombing on.

For whatever reason this stopped after the Christmas and we’ve not been able to recreate it since.

[Fpcity]

35 minutes ago, 054123 said:

This is wn excellent point.!if you go back and watch highlights from the start of that 2027-18 season, the quickness and fluidity with which we broke and scored was frightening.

It didn’t really matter who the ‘striker’ was. Because we had full backs or midfielders bombing on.

For whatever reason this stopped after the Christmas and we’ve not been able to recreate it since.

It stopped when Diedhiou came back in from injury and you can't play that type of football with him. 

[David Brent]

Because we don’t have anyone with anywhere near enough the quality or work rate of Bobby Reid

[Davefevs]

Just seen this thread....I posted very similar on another one.  Feel sorry for Fam, because we don’t play to his strengths, but we shouldn’t show-horn him in either.

We are a team that needs to be a sum of its parts.

[Guest]

Remember Fulham away when we played Reid completely on his own up there. O'Dowda was just starting to look amazing on the right cutting inside. Pato left. Korey more advanced role alongside Brownhill. Pack sitting deep. Absolutely dominated and won 2-0 but maybe should have been more. They couldn't get it out of their half. 

It was amazing to see us play that way. But I do think it stopped working. Most on this forum were saying we needed Diedhiou back. When we lost 5-0 at Villa we could not keep the ball up top without a Deidhiou type up there. LJ kept playing Flint up front like away at QPR.

So the Pato and Reid thing did stop working. Teams sussed us out. In one way it should work better now we have a defence who really can play it out the back, and push up to make a higher line as they all have pace.

Would probably have to be Szmodics and Weimann up there. Not sure it would really push us on though. Still not sure about Weimann being our main number 9. So erratic some days. But it would fit more in with how LJ wants us to play when playing 442.

[BS4 on Tour...]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed- Weimann as the lone striker is something I've been keen on us exploring for a while tbh, last Autumn during our dodgy spell I'm a bit surprised we didn't try it.

We explored it in the first five games of last season and Weimann notched five in those games ... 

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

We explored it in the first five games of last season and Weimann notched five in those games ... 

Wasn't it Weimann and Taylor at times too? Certainly at QPR I remember Taylor scoring- wasn't quite in the blueprint I had in mind though, we didn't dominate possession as a whole in that period.

5 goals and an assist in the first 6- can't get much better.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wasn't it Weimann and Taylor at times too? Certainly at QPR I remember Taylor scoring- wasn't quite in the blueprint I had in mind though, we didn't dominate possession as a whole in that period.

5 goals and an assist in the first 6- can't get much better.

Yep 4411 v QPR in my book.  Taylor drifting around Weimann, full of energy, the pair of them, happy to fill into midfield when needed.

Out of interest, City score every 50 minutes Taylor is on the pitch.  Fam, 70, Weimann 71.

I’m not even a Taylor fan, but those are impressive stats....and I know he often comes on against tiring defences, but still impressive.

[RedM]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep 4411 v QPR in my book.  Taylor drifting around Weimann, full of energy, the pair of them, happy to fill into midfield when needed.

Out of interest, City score every 50 minutes Taylor is on the pitch.  Fam, 70, Weimann 71.

I’m not even a Taylor fan, but those are impressive stats....and I know he often comes on against tiring defences, but still impressive.

Much like Wagstaff and even Pitman, goals returned from them and Taylor for the minutes played were quite impressive. Often game winning goals against tiring defences as you say. Whether the super sub role is enough for Taylor at this stage of his career is enough is another thing.Weimann needs players who are on the same wavelength as him to shine, Taylor seems to be so much more than Diedhiou, even after all this time judging by Saturday. 

Yes obviously Taylor didn’t play before someone points this out, but my observation still stands.

[downendcity]

 Famara is a better player than many give him credit and performs a thankless task playing up front on his own.However, I've long though that playing him as a lone striker, limits the options as to how we play and makes us much more predictable.

Playing Famara reminds me of my amateur football days ( dubbined boots, leather lace up footballs, jumpers of goalposts etc  :) ) when all too often the manager would pick his "favourite" 11 players and then concoct a team from them. Not necessarily the best team, but the best players in his eyes. I think there is a bit of that with Famara - having paid a record fee for him is LJ loath to leave him on the bench?