Bielsa is a world class coach. Why can't BCFC appoint a world class coach

[southvillekiddy]

12 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Agree with the second paragraph.

This first paragraph begs the question how have Leeds managed to do it so relatively quickly.

I suggest it is because Bielsa knows what he is doing. The players buy into it because it works as it did on sunday

 

25 minutes ago, grifty said:

So actually you just want us to hire a foreign manager?

If they are the best - yes. Seems obvious. Man City, Liverpool and Tottenham have all done this. The thought should not be alarming to our wealthy owner or our fans

[southvillekiddy]

1 hour ago, Red7 said:

Those four coaches all played for those respective clubs, to be fair. So that's a pattern, for sure.

My point is that we won't tend to attract world-class people because we are nowhere near world class. That's not to say we don't aspire to be, mind.  

I'm happy you made your concluding sentence mate. I'm assuming we want the best for BCFC. Some on here seem content to dismiss this idea, effectively making the stuck-in-the-mud statement  "We've never been top drawer, we never will be"  How pathetic and depressing is that? Whereas I would say we have so much going for us especially with the size of our city and our catchment area. Liverpool is about the same population as Bristol - they have two Premiership sides.

To get to be world class we appoint a world class manager, that seems a logical order of events

 

PS  I'm delighted by the signing and what Massengo has said "“I want the team and I hope for Bristol City fans that we will be a Premier League club next season. It must be our ambition.” 

Let's hope LJ plays him

[Wrongagain]

We may not have a world class coach, but we do have a fairly good coach that is still learning, in many respects he is very good, but our starting 11 and tactics on Sunday tell us he is not there yet!  Eventually he may well be, hopefully it will be soon!  His recent decisions say we cant  trust him to be our Messiah, something is missing and I still think it’s the connection between him and the players - as someone else said in the last few days the midfield is playing his way, too many balls across or back, which ends up with long balls to a 9 with no support. So bad on Sunday that Paterson managed to shine!

COYR

[southvillekiddy]

1 minute ago, dave36 said:

We may not have a world class coach, but we do have a good coach that is still learning, in many respects he is very good, but our starting 11 and tactics on Sunday tell us he is not there yet!  Eventually he may well be, hopefully it will be soon!

COYR

That's a genuine, generous comment mate. But I'm not sure that we should have a coach who is "learning on the job" rather than one who has been there and done it already elsewhere and can do it again with us.

[Wrongagain]

12 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

That's a genuine, generous comment mate. But I'm not sure that we should have a coach who is "learning on the job" rather than one who has been there and done it already elsewhere and can do it again with us.

You may not agree with the edit I was typing while you replied!

[grifty]

48 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

That's a genuine, generous comment mate. But I'm not sure that we should have a coach who is "learning on the job" rather than one who has been there and done it already elsewhere and can do it again with us.

But who is this world class coach you say we should choose?

If there is one available that won't ruin the club with silly transfer/wages then I would agree, however what World Class (and to me that means winning major tournaments, dealing with World Class players for a number of years) is going to come to us?

Carlo Ancelotti? Mourinho? Who do you suggest?

[reddogkev]

On ‎04‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 20:34, southvillekiddy said:

Bielsa is a world class coach who has changed football tactics. Leeds are an excellent side who are probably going to be promoted automatically.

My question is why can't BCFC appoint a world class coach?

For me, you've asked the wrong question - we won't hire a world-class coach, as Bristol City are too small a team to tempt such a manager, which I believe you must agree with.

The question should be - why don't we hire a Championship-winning class manager?  Which, clearly Lee Johnson is not, although he may develop to become this during his career.

I'm convinced and I have been for quite some time, that LJ will not take City to the Premier League - he just doesn't have the nous, ruthlessness, or winning edge to do this.

The manager we hire after will be the man to complete this part of City's future.  At the moment, SL, LJ and Ashton are still laying the ground work for the serious promotion push.

When SL sees that Lee has taken City as far as he can, only then will the championship-winning manager be appointed.

For what it's worth, I feel this may be the make or break season for Lee, and if we don't reach the top six, I would bet on him being sacked next summer.

[southvillekiddy]

15 minutes ago, grifty said:

But who is this world class coach you say we should choose?If there is one available that won't ruin the club with silly transfer/wages then I would agree, however what World Class (and to me that means winning major tournaments, dealing with World Class players for a number of years) is going to come to us?Carlo Ancelotti? Mourinho? Who do you suggest?

Unless you believe this is even remotely possible you condone the notion, widely held in Bristol, that BCFC will never amount to anything. That's the reason that we see kids wearing replica Man Utd shirts rather than BCFC shirts in our city. Those kids have grown up with the defeatist notion you share. 

[southvillekiddy]

14 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

 

The manager we hire after will be the man to complete this part of City's future.  At the moment, SL, LJ and Ashton are still laying the ground work for the serious promotion push.

When SL sees that Lee has taken City as far as he can, only then will the championship-winning manager be appointed.

For what it's worth, I feel this may be the make or break season for Lee, and if we don't reach the top six, I would bet on him being sacked next summer.

I really hope this is true mate and I have already said many times in other threads that we need a Manager who has already achieved promotion to the Premiership elsewhere. But I am not comforted by the fact that Ashton and Lansdown stated that from a large pool of candidates for the managership of BCFC Lee Johnson was the outstanding candidate! I hope that SL is beginning to change but he has to go a lot further in letting go of his plaything (our Club) and appoint someone like Bielsa who would not be a yes-man and shake our Club from top to bottom on order to achieve the promised land.

[grifty]

36 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Unless you believe this is even remotely possible you condone the notion, widely held in Bristol, that BCFC will never amount to anything. That's the reason that we see kids wearing replica Man Utd shirts rather than BCFC shirts in our city. Those kids have grown up with the defeatist notion you share. 

Again, you're ignoring the point. I did say if we can get a "World Class manager" we should, but being REALISTIC who falls in this bracket? Your World Class definition may well be much different to mine. I see there are 5-6 World Class managers in the world, you may think there are many.

You've mentioned in a recent post that it should be someone who has achieved promotion to the Prem elsewhere which is a good point as it will give experience that no-one else at the club has.

[Eastendboy1965]

7 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

Here, here. Many fans on OTIB will just not admit this. It means that his patronage is our biggest obstacle. (Please don't someone say "Look at what he has done for BCFC" until you have thought seriously about the different sort of price BCFC has paid for having him as our owner) 

If those people are happy just having a football Club to support, ticking over as a yo-yo Championship member that's okay but please spare a thought for those of us who want City to be at the highest level and don't deserve vehement criticism for having these ambitions for our Club.

Hallelujah ! My God mate, I could have written this myself. I have been slagged off by many for saying exactly this. I could see the writing on the wall when 2008 happened.  It was a clear sign of lack of intent. And he will 'keep the lid on' it forever...   

[numbeast]

Why can Leeds appoint a very good (not world class) head coach/manager? Could be something to do with an average attendance of 33k, 10k more than us over many years. Also Leeds live on the history from the early 70's as illustrated by the flags. They get support from all over the country on the back of their great sides of the past.

We have bought a lot of players since LJ took over but we've made more profitable sales than losses. 4 of these sales were to Premier league clubs 3 of which I would put down to Johnson's influence. It fits the clubs model of buy, improve, sell, reinvest.

You say Steve Lansdowns patronage is holding us back, I see it differently. I see it as holding us back from a re-run of 1982. If Lansdown did sell up who would replace him? A dubious Italian? A middle eastern sheik?

We could get big named manager certainly, but at what price? And what guarantee of success? We don't have a history of success in our 120 odd years to attract a name so we'd need to throw big money at it.

Being a City fan is frustrating but I think we are moving in the right direction. Is Lee Johnson the man to get us promoted, I don't know. But who believed Alan Dicks would take us up in his early years at the club? Despite Sundays game I'm still optimistic about the season and about the clubs future. 

[southvillekiddy]

1 hour ago, numbeast said:

Why can Leeds appoint a very good (not world class) head coach/manager? Could be something to do with an average attendance of 33k, 10k more than us over many years. Also Leeds live on the history from the early 70's as illustrated by the flags. They get support from all over the country on the back of their great sides of the past.

We have bought a lot of players since LJ took over but we've made more profitable sales than losses. 4 of these sales were to Premier league clubs 3 of which I would put down to Johnson's influence. It fits the clubs model of buy, improve, sell, reinvest.

You say Steve Lansdowns patronage is holding us back, I see it differently. I see it as holding us back from a re-run of 1982. If Lansdown did sell up who would replace him? A dubious Italian? A middle eastern sheik?

We could get big named manager certainly, but at what price? And what guarantee of success? We don't have a history of success in our 120 odd years to attract a name so we'd need to throw big money at it.

Being a City fan is frustrating but I think we are moving in the right direction. Is Lee Johnson the man to get us promoted, I don't know. But who believed Alan Dicks would take us up in his early years at the club? Despite Sundays game I'm still optimistic about the season and about the clubs future. 

Fair play to you mate. I may have given the impression that I want SL to go. That isn't the case. I do want him to make a substantial change however - have the guts to appoint a World class manager who will challenge him and everything else about sleepy/stuck-in-the-mud Bristol City. We're not a sleeping giant we're in a vegetative state in comparison to other set-ups far smaller than us who have attained Premiership football

[Bas's perfect hattrick]

3 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Fair play to you mate. I may have given the impression that I want SL to go. That isn't the case. I do want him to make a substantial change however - have the guts to appoint a World class manager who will challenge him and everything else about sleepy/stuck-in-the-mud Bristol City. We're not a sleeping giant we're in a vegetative state in comparison to other set-ups far smaller than us who have attained Premiership football

What's happened to those smaller clubs though? The likes of Blackpool, Wigan, Reading had their 1 or 2 seasons in the premier league and are now back at the same level as us or worse. Lansdown has stated he wants sustainable success, and we are looking in a better place now then before. 

[grifty]

10 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

Fair play to you mate. I may have given the impression that I want SL to go. That isn't the case. I do want him to make a substantial change however - have the guts to appoint a World class manager who will challenge him and everything else about sleepy/stuck-in-the-mud Bristol City. We're not a sleeping giant we're in a vegetative state in comparison to other set-ups far smaller than us who have attained Premiership football

You keep saying that phrase but are ignoring the main points about it. Who is this World class manager we are supposed to be signing?

[southvillekiddy]

12 hours ago, grifty said:

Again, you're ignoring the point. I did say if we can get a "World Class manager" we should, but being REALISTIC who falls in this bracket? Your World Class definition may well be much different to mine. I see there are 5-6 World Class managers in the world, you may think there are many.

You've mentioned in a recent post that it should be someone who has achieved promotion to the Prem elsewhere which is a good point as it will give experience that no-one else at the club has.

I'd say there are as many world class managers as there there are people managing national sides, Premiership quality foreign League winners and major national and continental trophy winners. Forgive me mate but I get "be realistic" from all sides. As a Bristolian I recognise that we are the biggest moaners ever who love taking a small-minded negative view so that we can say "See, I told 'ee it wudn't work" If we keep saying we cannot to compare ourselves eg. to Man City then we conspire to keep ourselves as a third rate football Club, whereas I would said as a major city we should be aiming for the highest levels.

Bristol City Fc was founded in 1894, Barcelona in 1899 and Real Madrid in 1902. We invented the game and ex-pats had a hand in forming the Clubs we now regard as the best in the world. 

What happened - the dead hand of the English FA happened. 'Trap the ball, kill it and kick everything above ground that isn't in your team" eg. our FA refused to take part in the World Cup initially because they believed we were above it. Hs, Ha.

So regrettably I think we have to look abroad for the best Management and Coaching staff at the moment but what we can do is learn from the methods used by Clubs at the top of the Premiership. So the links were are establishing with Chelsea for example are a great indicator. This is what our owner, a brilliant business man, should be devoted to, leaving the football to the best Management and Coaching staff we can appoint from abroad.

PS wouldn't it be great if we had someone at Ashton Gate who could think of getting Wayne Rooney here as a Coach, fly him over here and get him to join us.

[southvillekiddy]

30 minutes ago, Bas's perfect hattrick said:

What's happened to those smaller clubs though? The likes of Blackpool, Wigan, Reading had their 1 or 2 seasons in the premier league and are now back at the same level as us or worse. Lansdown has stated he wants sustainable success, and we are looking in a better place now then before. 

Wigan is a great example. Whelan had the ambition and will to make it happen. What he didn't have was a city of half a million and many other wealthy people to court, changing the set-up to a top 4 Premiership model. Liverpool is the same size and has a similiar history to Bristol, it has 2 Premiership teams. Bristol is absolutely ripe for Premiership football if the people at BCFC could work substantially harder at changing our image and informing the country what we have going potentially. eg. fans from other Clubs cannot understand how Bristol has 2 football Clubs. They think Bristol is some poxy little village.

Unfortunately FFP has happened , some Clubs eg. Man City get around it somehow. I'd say cynically FFP is now the perfect scenario for SL he can carry on his gradually/gradually indefinitely now can't he? Jim Callaghan used to talk about "the inevitability of gradualness" which is where SL seems to be. Can you wait another 100 years for another Alan Dicks and the topflight?

[EmissionImpossible]

1 hour ago, southvillekiddy said:

Wigan is a great example. Whelan had the ambition and will to make it happen. What he didn't have was a city of half a million and many other wealthy people to court, changing the set-up to a top 4 Premiership model. Liverpool is the same size and has a similiar history to Bristol, it has 2 Premiership teams. Bristol is absolutely ripe for Premiership football if the people at BCFC could work substantially harder at changing our image and informing the country what we have going potentially. eg. fans from other Clubs cannot understand how Bristol has 2 football Clubs. They think Bristol is some poxy little village.

Unfortunately FFP has happened , some Clubs eg. Man City get around it somehow. I'd say cynically FFP is now the perfect scenario for SL he can carry on his gradually/gradually indefinitely now can't he? Jim Callaghan used to talk about "the inevitability of gradualness" which is where SL seems to be. Can you wait another 100 years for another Alan Dicks and the topflight?

Hi, could you please explain the private message you sent me.

[southvillekiddy]

5 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Hi, could you please explain the private message you sent me.

At the bottom of my Bielsa post you clicked the emoji designated as "Rovers" on the menu

[marcofisher]

Can someone explain to me what achievements make Marco Bielsa a World Class manager? 

A class manager certainly, possibly the best in our league,  but I think to call him "World Class" does a lot of actual World Class managers a disservice. 

[southvillekiddy]

24 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Can someone explain to me what achievements make Marco Bielsa a World Class manager? 

A class manager certainly, possibly the best in our league,  but I think to call him "World Class" does a lot of actual World Class managers a disservice. 

If a manager can get a team into the Premiership and keep them there he is operating at a very high level. That's what I want for City and I don't think it's an unrealistic aim given our set-up do you. So you have to go for the best by looking abroad. That is the proven method if we look at the top of the Premiership.That's why I started this thread. What we saw on sunday is our manager being totally out-classed by a person who has been in English football for one season having made no notable signings at Leeds United. So Bielsa must be pretty special if not yet world class. Could you agree with that?

I believe Alan Dicks would have got us a draw playing a superior side on our home patch, don't you?

With all due respect to AD things have moved a lot further forward and we need to think in a global way about recruiting our manager and coaching staff. To my view this comes above signing top players. There are lots of examples of inept managers who have come out of the english game spending millions and millions on top players and making a mess of things. Roy Keane at Sunderland springs to mind.

Be very interesting to see what happens with all these amazing potentially international standard young players joining us. Will he play them consistently? Will he play them in their best positions? Do we have the Coaching staff to further their development? There's no point in having them if the person in charge doesn't know what he is doing. There was plenty of evidence of this on sunday in team selection and "tactics" 

 

[SecretSam]

On 04/08/2019 at 20:34, southvillekiddy said:

Bielsa is a world class coach who has changed football tactics. Leeds are an excellent side who are probably going to be promoted automatically.

My question is why can't BCFC appoint a world class coach?

Allardyce is available, isn't he? 

Tell me, how green is the grass on the other side of wherever you live?

[southvillekiddy]

1 minute ago, SecretSam said:

Allardyce is available, isn't he? 

Tell me, how green is the grass on the other side of wherever you live?

What, dodgy Sam?

I only have to look about 200 miles up the M5, M6 and M58 to the green, green grass of Liverpool, a city the size of Bristol with 2 Premiership Clubs. You are right I'm not content with how my Club are doing. But all that I have proposed is possible

[Natchfever]

3 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

If a manager can get a team into the Premiership and keep them there he is operating at a very high level. That's what I want for City and I don't think it's an unrealistic aim given our set-up do you. So you have to go for the best by looking abroad. That is the proven method if we look at the top of the Premiership.That's why I started this thread. What we saw on sunday is our manager being totally out-classed by a person who has been in English football for one season having made no notable signings at Leeds United. So Bielsa must be pretty special if not yet world class. Could you agree with that?

I believe Alan Dicks would have got us a draw playing a superior side on our home patch, don't you?

With all due respect to AD things have moved a lot further forward and we need to think in a global way about recruiting our manager and coaching staff. To my view this comes above signing top players. There are lots of examples of inept managers who have come out of the english game spending millions and millions on top players and making a mess of things. Roy Keane at Sunderland springs to mind.

Be very interesting to see what happens with all these amazing potentially international standard young players joining us. Will he play them consistently? Will he play them in their best positions? Do we have the Coaching staff to further their development? There's no point in having them if the person in charge doesn't know what he is doing. There was plenty of evidence of this on sunday in team selection and "tactics" 

 

I think you were right to raise the point because it's always the players fault not the coaches it seems, and after all LJ is "still learning" according to some, and that is just fine because of successive higher finishes.

Fact is, I am absolutely convinced that a better coach would have gotten us a damn sight closer the past 2 seasons, and I fail to see why the focus always seems to be on the playing side, when any organisation should look to imrprove everywhere.

Should the club sack LJ ? Pointless debate as that will never happen, but I think whether the phrase "world class" is appropriate or not, there must be better coaches out there, who someone like Mark Ashton should at least be able to identify, and I find it daft that the club is looking to upgrade across the pitch but the most important component gets a free pass..

We look badly prepared on occasion, show cowardice at home in terms of our approach to games, and still appear to have an unbalanced squad, with some odd selections.

All of these sit with LJ.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Can someone explain to me what achievements make Marco Bielsa a World Class manager? 

A class manager certainly, possibly the best in our league,  but I think to call him "World Class" does a lot of actual World Class managers a disservice. 

He has a mismatch between achievements and billing. Perhaps world class a bit strong.

However one thing that isn't being factored in his difficulty to work with. People maybe can overlook it but quitting Lazio after 2 days and Marseille minutes after the first game (which they lost) into his 2nd season- that does his career zero favours! More than just technical and tactical to consider- stylistically and purely based on style his philosophy has similarities to Barcelona, does it not? Spygate and subsequent tactical Press Conference at Leeds, though very interesting let's say, is not something any big club would want!

If it wasn't for his unpredictable edge he may have managed bigger clubs and won more.

Football is a changing industry. I look at the following clubs and I see the following managers:

Man Utd- Solskjaer

Chelsea- Lampard

Real Madrid- Zidane- Admittedly he won THREE CL's on the bounce, maybe it was just a case of Zidane + them and a lot of Galaticos=Perfect match? Took over as a novice though.

Barcelona- Valverde- Good, but nothing amazing.

Bayern- Kovac

You seriously saying that these are better qualified than Benitez or Bielsa- Benitez in particular but I'd also say Bielsa ahead of a fair few.

[grifty]

I do agree the basis of the OPs thought process is an interesting one. Would a foreign manager come in with some new ideas that would be that difference to allow us to take that extra step?

I think World Class is an over statement, but definitely an experienced coach at a top divisional level either in England or another of the top leagues is probably within our grasp with our current off-the-pitch set up and budgets we are working with.

I do quite like the fact we have a 'young' English manager that we have backed and supported when 95% of other teams may have pulled the trigger, but appreciate others want success sooner/now which is where we get the such differing viewpoints on the forum.

[the1stknowle]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Can someone explain to me what achievements make Marco Bielsa a World Class manager? 

A class manager certainly, possibly the best in our league,  but I think to call him "World Class" does a lot of actual World Class managers a disservice. 

Well promotion in his first season as Leeds Mana.. oh.. wait. 

In fairness he was up against the indisputably world class Chris Wilder, Daniel Farke and Dean Smith.

Interesting fact - all three of those managers were appointed when fans pointed out to the boards of those clubs that if they appointed a world class manager they would get world class results because that's the way football works.

[Natchfever]

13 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Well promotion in his first season as Leeds Mana.. oh.. wait. 

In fairness he was up against the indisputably world class Chris Wilder, Daniel Farke and Dean Smith.

Interesting fact - all three of those managers were appointed when fans pointed out to the boards of those clubs that if they appointed a world class manager they would get world class results because that's the way football works.

So nailed on promotion for us then !

Dean smith very highly rated before he went to Villa, don't think LJ was in the frame for that job.

Brave call by Norwich I agree but no doubt they did a fair bit of due dilligence and clearly it worked.

Chris Wilder has been success all the way at Sheffield United so an inspired appointment.

I daresay fans of those clubs may have expected bigger names, after all they are bigger clubs than City with recent Prem experience, although dod they really say they would get "world class results" particularly the Blades who were a L1 club at the time?

Doubt that.

 

[the1stknowle]

2 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

So nailed on promotion for us then !

Dean smith very highly rated before he went to Villa, don't think LJ was in the frame for that job.

Brave call by Norwich I agree but no doubt they did a fair bit of due dilligence and clearly it worked.

Chris Wilder has been success all the way at Sheffield United.

 

Exactly.

If you want world class results, the only way to go is a world class manager.

[marcofisher]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He has a mismatch between achievements and billing. Perhaps world class a bit strong.

However one thing that isn't being factored in his difficulty to work with. People maybe can overlook it but quitting Lazio after 2 days and Marseille minutes after the first game (which they lost) into his 2nd season- that does his career zero favours! More than just technical and tactical to consider- stylistically and purely based on style his philosophy has similarities to Barcelona, does it not? Spygate and subsequent tactical Press Conference at Leeds, though very interesting let's say, is not something any big club would want!

If it wasn't for his unpredictable edge he may have managed bigger clubs and won more.

Football is a changing industry. I look at the following clubs and I see the following managers:

Man Utd- Solskjaer

Chelsea- Lampard

Real Madrid- Zidane- Admittedly he won THREE CL's on the bounce, maybe it was just a case of Zidane + them and a lot of Galaticos=Perfect match? Took over as a novice though.

Barcelona- Valverde- Good, but nothing amazing.

Bayern- Kovac

You seriously saying that these are better qualified than Benitez or Bielsa- Benitez in particular but I'd also say Bielsa ahead of a fair few.

And this is my point exactly, has hasn’t been at a club for longer than 2 years in his career! 

We have all seen his abilities as a tactician, but that doesn’t necessarily make him world class.

I would be curious to know how his wage at Leeds compares to other championship managers.