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Defensive foundations?


Olé

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I avoided OTIB yesterday as I didn't trust myself to be rational so wanted to sleep on it. There were all sorts of things wrong with yesterday, many of which are worthy of a thesis of their own (and many already have threads of their own), but on reflection today the one thing that sticks out most is how exposed we were at the back.

All the best stuff last season was built, often comfortably so, on clean sheets and grinding out results. Even at home we could expect an hour of boredom while we chanced nothing, kept tight and hoped to nick it. It wasn't always pretty but it was effective and by our standards, streetwise - the right foundation to take into this season.

And yet what the hell has happened to it? Hindsight is easy but this has been coming for weeks. Pre-season we've looked shaky in the games I've seen and easily exposed across the back. 2 to AFC Wimbledon, 2 to Derby, 3 to Forest Green, 5 to Palace, now 3 to Leeds. We weren't solid even before Webster left so don't leap to that excuse.

I know it's fashionable to use prior seasons to show that there is no correlation between pre-season and what follows, but I find that such a daft argument. Football isn't won or lost by historical precedent but by form, and defensively our form is awful. I thought it was just experimentation and we'd revert to type in the league - but no.

All the other problems people have highlighted - one man up top, poor service, long balls, loose passes. We had all that last season too and yet ground out results in spite of it. The one constant was our ability to at least soak up pressure, deal with teams hitting us on the break and remain tight at the back. That was our foundation.

Where is it? 

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Our midfield pairing of Pack & Brownhill wasn't good enough yesterday. Leeds controlled the midfield then piled forward quickly in numbers when in possession, so our defenders were frequently outnumbered. The contrast with our lump ball to an isolated Diedhiou, or our leaden and ponderous build up play before failing to get the ball in the box, stood in stark contrast.

There is a lot of work to do in terms of both personnel and formation to get the best out of this squad. LJ seems to be under the misapprehension that all he has to do to make the playoffs is play the same way as last season, but with a bit more luck. That is not the case.

Finally the way to lose fans is play badly at home. We have been doing that for at least 12 months. And yesterday was just a continuation of that trend. We played badly for at least 70 of the 90 minutes yesterday and deserved to lose against a team that played bette on the day and had better tactics.

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Agree with you ole, and one other thing that has not been mentioned is the prep for the season by our head coach has been abysmal. Players as individuals do not look prepared, as a team we look short on ideas, shape and awareness I think too much has been taken for granted and we just drifted into the season totally unprepared

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11 minutes ago, Olé said:

I avoided OTIB yesterday as I didn't trust myself to be rational so wanted to sleep on it. There were all sorts of things wrong with yesterday, many of which are worthy of a thesis of their own (and many already have threads of their own), but on reflection today the one thing that sticks out most is how exposed we were at the back.

All the best stuff last season was built, often comfortably so, on clean sheets and grinding out results. Even at home we could expect an hour of boredom while we chanced nothing, kept tight and hoped to nick it. It wasn't always pretty but it was effective and by our standards, streetwise - the right foundation to take into this season.

And yet what the hell has happened to it? Hindsight is easy but this has been coming for weeks. Pre-season we've looked shaky in the games I've seen and easily exposed across the back. 2 to AFC Wimbledon, 2 to Derby, 3 to Forest Green, 5 to Palace, now 3 to Leeds. We weren't solid even before Webster left so don't leap to that excuse.

I know it's fashionable to use prior seasons to show that there is no correlation between pre-season and what follows, but I find that such a daft argument. Football isn't won or lost by historical precedent but by form, and defensively our form is awful. I thought it was just experimentation and we'd revert to type in the league - but no.

All the other problems people have highlighted - one man up top, poor service, long balls, loose passes. We had all that last season too and yet ground out results in spite of it. The one constant was our ability to at least soak up pressure, deal with teams hitting us on the break and remain tight at the back. That was our foundation.

Where is it? 

Totally agree with this.

I went to the Forest Green and Palace games and what struck me most in these two games was how poor defensively we were.

That continued yesterday.

 

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Not sure why but we are miles off the pace, and have been through our preseason games. Could be the US trip.

Leeds were significantly faster in mind and body yesterday. Playing through us in midfield, or finding space out wide on both sides repeatedly. We didn’t get near them. The ease with which they switched play was awful.

we also seemed to need far too much time on the ball. That’s one thing at least pato offers. He gets his head up quickly and looks to move the ball.

Formation and shape did not work at all and we desperately need a defensive midfielder. More so than a forward I think.

quite a lot of work needed on the training ground ...but loads of time to get it right..

u reds. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, The chief said:

Could be the US trip.

I'm sure there were top facilities and the fact that it seems to be sponsored mean't that there is a reason the media coming out looked like a holiday not a training camp....

But it sure didn't feel like preseaon preparation.

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I think it needs to be kept in mind Leeds were excellent, pretty much nailed on they will be in the play offs at least this year. Does that excuse our performance, no, we were sub par but Leeds were excellent and we won't be facing teams of their pace, movement and skill each week in this league. 

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Thought we played our best football when Reid was here, our passing, attacking, defence and press was exciting and effective. We ran out of energy towards the end of the season, but felt we just needed to bring in a few quality players to add some rotation to rest players and we could keep that up all season - instead we just dropped the whole style/system. Since then bar the odd game, feel we have been pretty boring to watch to be honest, especially home last season.

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For me it seemed that Hunt is not good enough, I know Leeds were excellent but I just think he is lacking. Kalas wasn't looking great but I'm sure will come good, he did have a new partner at the back, there were also times when JDS was ball watching. I thought Moore was not half bad and hopefully with some better defensive coaching all will improve BUT I do believe we need a better right back.

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2 minutes ago, jellyred said:

For me it seemed that Hunt is not good enough, I know Leeds were excellent but I just think he is lacking. Kalas wasn't looking great but I'm sure will come good, he did have a new partner at the back, there were also times when JDS was ball watching. I thought Moore was not half bad and hopefully with some better defensive coaching all will improve BUT I do believe we need a better right back.

Felt bad for Hunt at times, Weimann half the time ignored his defensive duties allowing Leeds to double up on Hunt, the cross field balls made it hard for Hunt as they would have space and then which ever received the ball the other would overlap/underlap, very hard to defend.

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In order for Dasilva to be most effective, people have to be able to cover for him. Same goes for Hunt, but Dasilva pushes up higher and more often. Yesterday really exposed Pack's lack of mobility. Often he is able to atone for it with a good range of passing or good positioning, but there was so much space for the onrushing Leeds midfield. Massengo looks quick, which could help, but it does feel like our gung-ho approach when going behind is too risky right now.

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6 minutes ago, hodge said:

Felt bad for Hunt at times, Weimann half the time ignored his defensive duties allowing Leeds to double up on Hunt, the cross field balls made it hard for Hunt as they would have space and then which ever received the ball the other would overlap/underlap, very hard to defend.

I said this is another thread. I would love to know the instructions given to COD and Weimann yesterday, offensively and defensively, as the positioning of both with and without the ball made little sense to me and was ineffective. Neither offered any support to Hunt and JDS.

numerous times Hunt had the ball coming out of defence and Weimann was nowhere to be seen. At one point Kalas made the run forward down the right to give Hunt an option.

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Defence starts from the front...and the energy from that frontline translates to the rest of the team.

Famara for all his isolation was absolutely lazy with no desire to press. Half hearted...jogging about...he looked like a player with lead in his boots who had already played a season. Absolutely no desire to do the defensive side of the game.

The same can be said of Palmer...often jogging about defensively...only energy came when he received the ball and went offensive.

That attitude spread throughout ....it was half hearted when defending. Not up to speed, either physically or mentally. Bar Moore who I thought showed passion and desire, and was often left despairing when Famara wouldn't come to receive a pass.

It was no surprise we looked better when Pato, Eliasson and Taylor came on. They provided energy, both defensively from the front and moved into space to receive passes or create space for others.

I'll say it now...Famara stops our natural game, and Palmer imo, is an impact sub...reminds me too much of playing like Tomlin. No desire to defend...only interested in doing some Individual bit of magic when offensive.

It showed yesterday...the desire and passion to defend from the front was abhorrent. That slothful attitude eminated throughout in most cases. 

Imo the only two players from the starting 11 that did themselves any favours were Moore and DaSilva.

 

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1 minute ago, Red Army 87 said:

I said this is another thread. I would love to know the instructions given to COD and Weimann yesterday, offensively and defensively, as the positioning of both with and without the ball made little sense to me and was ineffective. Neither offered any support to Hunt and JDS.

numerous times Hunt had the ball coming out of defence and Weimann was nowhere to be seen. At one point Kalas made the run forward down the right to give Hunt an option.

Got the impression Weimann was trying to be a bit more central to support Diedhiou given how little support he had as well

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Hunt often two against one sometimes 3 against one commentators were saying they felt sorry for him .Douglas was virtually standing next to him no other city player within ten yards of them .Not saying he's the best right back but needed help yesterday

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I think Johnson’s brain is frazzled.  Some basic selection issues have crept in and looking from the outside, pre season has been a disaster.  

Sometimes managers can get blinded by things when usually the best thing to do is have a plan A and work off of that. Johnson’s current Plan A is all over the place.

 

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11 minutes ago, spudski said:

Defence starts from the front...and the energy from that frontline translates to the rest of the team.

Famara for all his isolation was absolutely lazy with no desire to press. Half hearted...jogging about...he looked like a player with lead in his boots who had already played a season. Absolutely no desire to do the defensive side of the game.

The same can be said of Palmer...often jogging about defensively...only energy came when he received the ball and went offensive.

That attitude spread throughout ....it was half hearted when defending. Not up to speed, either physically or mentally. Bar Moore who I thought showed passion and desire, and was often left despairing when Famara wouldn't come to receive a pass.

It was no surprise we looked better when Pato, Eliasson and Taylor came on. They provided energy, both defensively from the front and moved into space to receive passes or create space for others.

I'll say it now...Famara stops our natural game, and Palmer imo, is an impact sub...reminds me too much of playing like Tomlin. No desire to defend...only interested in doing some Individual bit of magic when offensive.

It suhowed yesterday...the desire and passion to defend from the front was abhorrent. That slothful attitude eminated throughout in most cases. 

Imo the only two players from the starting 11 that did themselves any favours were Moore and DaSilva.

 

I think you're being kind to Da Silva who was daydreaming at times yesterday. Don't think he is the best defensively. What is it about us having talented LBs who have the habit of switching off?

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11 minutes ago, RedDave said:

I think Johnson’s brain is frazzled.  Some basic selection issues have crept in and looking from the outside, pre season has been a disaster.  

Sometimes managers can get blinded by things when usually the best thing to do is have a plan A and work off of that. Johnson’s current Plan A is all over the place.

 

Totally agree and it was reflected on the pitch yesterday.  Some things (like multiple free roaming forward players, amongst others) he was trying wasn't working in pre season and again,  didn't work yesterday.

Just wondering if he's trying to be too clever or perhaps we simply don't have the players for what he's trying, probably a mix of the two, most likely.

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1 hour ago, Olé said:

I avoided OTIB yesterday as I didn't trust myself to be rational so wanted to sleep on it. There were all sorts of things wrong with yesterday, many of which are worthy of a thesis of their own (and many already have threads of their own), but on reflection today the one thing that sticks out most is how exposed we were at the back.

All the best stuff last season was built, often comfortably so, on clean sheets and grinding out results. Even at home we could expect an hour of boredom while we chanced nothing, kept tight and hoped to nick it. It wasn't always pretty but it was effective and by our standards, streetwise - the right foundation to take into this season.

And yet what the hell has happened to it? Hindsight is easy but this has been coming for weeks. Pre-season we've looked shaky in the games I've seen and easily exposed across the back. 2 to AFC Wimbledon, 2 to Derby, 3 to Forest Green, 5 to Palace, now 3 to Leeds. We weren't solid even before Webster left so don't leap to that excuse.

I know it's fashionable to use prior seasons to show that there is no correlation between pre-season and what follows, but I find that such a daft argument. Football isn't won or lost by historical precedent but by form, and defensively our form is awful. I thought it was just experimentation and we'd revert to type in the league - but no.

All the other problems people have highlighted - one man up top, poor service, long balls, loose passes. We had all that last season too and yet ground out results in spite of it. The one constant was our ability to at least soak up pressure, deal with teams hitting us on the break and remain tight at the back. That was our foundation.

Where is it? 

Look at how many attacking players were shoe horned into the team. Then consider their defensive contribution. 

Last seasons 4-1-4-1 was dour but defensively adept as a team. It adopted a obvious shape out of possession, got compact and used frequently a midfield block  screening and worked off triggers as a unit.

Sundays team sort of used that midfield block but was deeper conceding and not controlling space. I would hesitate to describe the team as screening as it was porous and easy to play through. 

Last season the team dropped into two lines with Famara cutting off the CB as an option attempting to get the opposition to play one way into traps. Sunday neither Famara and Palmer appeared to understand their roles and they opened up passing lanes for the opposition rather than closed them.. 

Our CB's also appeared to not understand their lines. Dropping while not outnumbered does not control space it provides opportunity. If the CB's were higher the first goal = No space to create the opportunity. 

Why did they drop? Often this is a case of you do not trust what is front of you but also a case of how frequently the ball was given away. Keep it the team moves up as unit and if they lose it they can react in a unit. Play it long? The team has to play differently and also train and play differently. It was a theme throughout the game - Lack of pressure on the ball v Leeds immediate pressure.  

Leeds looked cohesive because they are versed in what they do. Bristol City again appear to be going down a differing route or routes and Mr Johnson is getting more in who again have to coached.

Teams are reflections of their Managers and coaches ideas. Leeds top man is known world wide for his methodology. We after seasons and years don't know what Mr Johnsons is … There is a lesson in there. 

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Two glaring issue for me which are more tactical then personnnel

space behind our wing-backs exploited time and time again by 40-50 yard cross field balls - Bielsa clearly watched us and could see a weekness in our set-up.

cut back bloody cut backs - why when chasing back do we pile back in numbers only to over run and defend the 6 yard box but never pick up the 1-3 guys stood on the box with acres of space!

 

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10 minutes ago, RedDave said:

I think Johnson’s brain is frazzled.  Some basic selection issues have crept in and looking from the outside, pre season has been a disaster.  

Sometimes managers can get blinded by things when usually the best thing to do is have a plan A and work off of that. Johnson’s current Plan A is all over the place.

 

I agree that pre-season does seem to have been a something of a disaster. Florida in August - where it's like a sauna, with storms every afternoon and a match called off for lightning strikes seems a very bizarre choice - was it heavily subsidised...or was the priority establishing relations with the American football league and assessing how multi-sport franchises work in the States? Doesn't appear to have delivered players ready for the subsequent matches or the start of the season.

We were outplayed at times at FGR...who looked much better organised. Palace was a fiasco. Yesterday we were strangely flat for a much anticipated, well attended match against a top side.

My working assumption from the friendlies was that much was going to be built around Elliason. I've nothing against COD but his contributions seemed focused on match fitness. For Elliason to be on the bench was confusing...particularly when he immediately made an impact.

And to echo @spudski I can't see how the 'big man up top' style of football fits with the personnel at our disposal. Fam is great on his day but doesn't have the consistent close control to hold the ball up and bring others into the game. I rate Andi Weimann and would build our attack around his clever running, which would allow our clever, nippy players to do their thing rather than lump the ball forward and battle for scraps.  

Early days of course. Just booked tickets for the QPR cup match, where hopefully things will have improved!

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49 minutes ago, spudski said:

Defence starts from the front...and the energy from that frontline translates to the rest of the team.

Famara for all his isolation was absolutely lazy with no desire to press. Half hearted...jogging about...he looked like a player with lead in his boots who had already played a season. Absolutely no desire to do the defensive side of the game.

The same can be said of Palmer...often jogging about defensively...only energy came when he received the ball and went offensive.

That attitude spread throughout ....it was half hearted when defending. Not up to speed, either physically or mentally. Bar Moore who I thought showed passion and desire, and was often left despairing when Famara wouldn't come to receive a pass.

It was no surprise we looked better when Pato, Eliasson and Taylor came on. They provided energy, both defensively from the front and moved into space to receive passes or create space for others.

I'll say it now...Famara stops our natural game, and Palmer imo, is an impact sub...reminds me too much of playing like Tomlin. No desire to defend...only interested in doing some Individual bit of magic when offensive.

It showed yesterday...the desire and passion to defend from the front was abhorrent. That slothful attitude eminated throughout in most cases. 

Imo the only two players from the starting 11 that did themselves any favours were Moore and DaSilva.

 

They displayed a lack of honesty. I said at the time to others they would have made me look good. Anybody with a basic modicum of football skill could given the space the pair afforded them. 

Palmer was walking around not even getting goal side and compact. Walking! His body language and effort stank. 

I another thread I asked why is Palmer here? The player yesterday was a liability in and out of possession and as you note these poor habits affect team mates. His ego is not an asset to the team if it wants to move the ball simply and quickly. He is me centred rather than team centred .. Impact sub possibly,.

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Famara needs to be dropped, not because of him, but because it leads to the ‘easy’ option for the rest of the players to hoof it.  I seem to remember Andy Cole was an outlet when he played for us and every ball was aimed at him hoping he’d perform a miracle.

Yesterday was poor.

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14 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I agree that pre-season does seem to have been a something of a disaster. Florida in August - where it's like a sauna, with storms every afternoon and a match called off for lightning strikes seems a very bizarre choice - was it heavily subsidised...or was the priority establishing relations with the American football league and assessing how multi-sport franchises work in the States? Doesn't appear to have delivered players ready for the subsequent matches or the start of the season.

We were outplayed at times at FGR...who looked much better organised. Palace was a fiasco. Yesterday we were strangely flat for a much anticipated, well attended match against a top side.

My working assumption from the friendlies was that much was going to be built around Elliason. I've nothing against COD but his contributions seemed focused on match fitness. For Elliason to be on the bench was confusing...particularly when he immediately made an impact.

And to echo @spudski I can't see how the 'big man up top' style of football fits with the personnel at our disposal. Fam is great on his day but doesn't have the consistent close control to hold the ball up and bring others into the game. I rate Andi Weimann and would build our attack around his clever running, which would allow our clever, nippy players to do their thing rather than lump the ball forward and battle for scraps.  

Early days of course. Just booked tickets for the QPR cup match, where hopefully things will have improved!

Just booked my QPR ticket too.

I think the other issue with Fammy, which gets overlooked, is that he is ideally deployed as a support striker. I don't think Bobby Reid would have got as many goals as he did get without Diedhiou alongside him for much of the season but the issue isn't just that he is a "big man" but that he isn't a lone striker or someone who excels at leading the line. The problem with that we then have Diedhiou, Palmer, Paterson, Szmodics and arguably Weimann and Taylor too whose key role in the side is to create space and opportunities for the focal point of the attack but nobody who actually acts at the focal point. I agree Weimann might be the best option at present but we really need a number nine. Diedhiou didn't cover himself in glory yesterday but far too often he is being asked to play in a way that just doesn't suit his attributes.

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1 minute ago, RumRed said:

Famara needs to be dropped, not because of him, but because it leads to the ‘easy’ option for the rest of the players to hoof it.  I seem to remember Andy Cole was an outlet when he played for us and every ball was aimed at him hoping he’d perform a miracle.

Yesterday was poor.

I agree but the really frustrating thing is we'd get much more out of Famara if we didn't hoof the ball to him. It's not as if that is even his game. 

 

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1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

I agree but the really frustrating thing is we'd get much more out of Famara if we didn't hoof the ball to him. It's not as if that is even his game. 

 

Agreed, it’s the rest of the team who leave him stranded with long balls.  I have no issue with Fam.

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1 hour ago, Hampshire reds said:

we need a right back and a partner for kalas. moore did ok but not good enough yet for a full season in the championship. 

Wow, that's fast, sounds like you that comment prepared. I thought TM fitted in well and at times put Kalas to shame. Give him a few more games before you show yourself up.

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