Defensive foundations?

[Cornacix the Druid]

From what I saw yesterday, we did not have a midfield and there was little "defending from the front". The midfield weren't bothered I think, either not wanting to be there or knowing that they will soon be out of the first team. I don't blame the defence for what happened yesterday, the men in front of them were at fault. With Kallas and Moore and their runs yesterday, did anyone see their expressions on their face? To me it seemed as though they were saying "FFS! if you *@%$ aren't going to do anything then we f-ing will" 

I got a feeling LJ may have written that game off yesterday before it even started. We'll get answers I think, in how the team looks after the transfer window "slams" shut.

[Olé]

1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

My working assumption from the friendlies was that much was going to be built around Elliason. I've nothing against COD but his contributions seemed focused on match fitness. For Elliason to be on the bench was confusing

And COD was playing as a substitute left back in pre-season, which made his selection in a position he had been barely afforded in pre-season, even more odd.

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

I asked why is Palmer here? The player yesterday was a liability in and out of possession

I was amazed Palmer and O'Dowda started (less so Moore) - what does it say about our pre-season preparations that we play a player who had been an experimental left back and a player who only arrived two days earlier. It doesn't exactly imply we were coming out of pre-season with a clear first team choice, ready to execute a well drilled strategy.

I suppose that's what I'm really wrestling with - the defensive foundation has clearly been abandoned from what I saw in pre-season culminating in yesterday, but to what end? I'd understand if it was trying to shift the team's focus for more attacking patterns of play, but no, the best we've got is chuck O'Dowda and Palmer back in at the last minute.

[Son of Fred]

3 hours ago, frenchred said:

Agree with you ole, and one other thing that has not been mentioned is the prep for the season by our head coach has been abysmal. Players as individuals do not look prepared, as a team we look short on ideas, shape and awareness I think too much has been taken for granted and we just drifted into the season totally unprepared

Feel the US trip actually pushed us backwards in our preparations if anything....hope we won't be pissing around in such fashion pre-season again!

[cidered abroad]

Not at either Palace or Leeds due to family problems so could be talking off the top of my head. Based on what I've seen last season and listening to Radio B yesterday.

Agree with Olé that last season's defensive stability was a bit tedious especially at home but it did get results. So must have been poor yesterday, although we improved on last season's 0-3 defeat to 1-3.

My stand on tactics is very old fashioned. Two central defenders, Two full backs who's priority is to defend and at least one midfielder with defensive responsibility. 

Instead we have both full backs almost in line with Fammy much of the time. A central midfielder, Pack, who tends to go that bit too far forward and lacks any pace when a team run at us, at speed, through the middle.We appear to be too segmented between defence, midfield and front. We need to defend as a team much better than we did and the same in attack.

We are being hit "on the break" too often by opponents, especially at home. All midfield not reacting defensively and quickly enough and if , as stated earlier, the full backs are too high, there is only one end result. We concede and have to start the gung ho chasing the game tactics.

Same in attack. Get the ball wide and get crosses in. To whom? Usually on or two of our's up against five or six of theirs. Nobody busting a gut to get in the box and cause defensive errors. 

I know this sounds a very negative post. We have some very good players, but also some very ordinary ones who are not going to take us anywhere positive.

Can LJ and his staff, sort it out quickly? I sincerely hope so, but we've never had one of his "Bust" runs at the start of the season before. They have all come when we had plenty of points on the board.

 

 

[Fiale]

Did anyone notice how the ball fell or rolled into positions between two players and neither would goto / collect it but just stand there for a second/two before one was "okay - i'll get it" was very strange seemed to happen 3 times during the game

[RedM]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Defence starts from the front...and the energy from that frontline translates to the rest of the team.

Famara for all his isolation was absolutely lazy with no desire to press. Half hearted...jogging about...he looked like a player with lead in his boots who had already played a season. Absolutely no desire to do the defensive side of the game.

The same can be said of Palmer...often jogging about defensively...only energy came when he received the ball and went offensive.

That attitude spread throughout ....it was half hearted when defending. Not up to speed, either physically or mentally. Bar Moore who I thought showed passion and desire, and was often left despairing when Famara wouldn't come to receive a pass.

It was no surprise we looked better when Pato, Eliasson and Taylor came on. They provided energy, both defensively from the front and moved into space to receive passes or create space for others.

I'll say it now...Famara stops our natural game, and Palmer imo, is an impact sub...reminds me too much of playing like Tomlin. No desire to defend...only interested in doing some Individual bit of magic when offensive.

It showed yesterday...the desire and passion to defend from the front was abhorrent. That slothful attitude eminated throughout in most cases. 

Imo the only two players from the starting 11 that did themselves any favours were Moore and DaSilva.

 

I couldn’t agree more. Exactly what I wanted to say only put so much better by yourself.

Too much standing around and not wanting to take responsibility, especially doing the defensive donkey work. Too much looking at eachother and almost shrugging ‘well that’s not my job’ type of attitude. Leeds were waltzing around us and hardly getting out of second gear, they didn’t need too. 

We were just never up for the fight, bar a couple of players, the ones you mentioned I totally agree with. Losing I can take but the like of pride and application I cannot. Let’s see how we put this game behind us, but if the rumoured Monaco player was watching it can’t have done us any favours.

[Trueredsupporter]

@spudski agree that defence starts from the front do you think FD should be pressing or getting into a shape? in the johnsons words thread there are posters saying FD works tirelessly??? 

[cidered abroad]

On 05/08/2019 at 12:03, spudski said:

Defence starts from the front...and the energy from that frontline translates to the rest of the team.

Famara for all his isolation was absolutely lazy with no desire to press. Half hearted...jogging about...he looked like a player with lead in his boots who had already played a season. Absolutely no desire to do the defensive side of the game.

The same can be said of Palmer...often jogging about defensively...only energy came when he received the ball and went offensive.

That attitude spread throughout ....it was half hearted when defending. Not up to speed, either physically or mentally. Bar Moore who I thought showed passion and desire, and was often left despairing when Famara wouldn't come to receive a pass.

It was no surprise we looked better when Pato, Eliasson and Taylor came on. They provided energy, both defensively from the front and moved into space to receive passes or create space for others.

I'll say it now...Famara stops our natural game, and Palmer imo, is an impact sub...reminds me too much of playing like Tomlin. No desire to defend...only interested in doing some Individual bit of magic when offensive.

It showed yesterday...the desire and passion to defend from the front was abhorrent. That slothful attitude eminated throughout in most cases. 

Imo the only two players from the starting 11 that did themselves any favours were Moore and DaSilva.

 

Liverpool's best defender in their Glory Days was Ian Rush.

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Liverpool's best defender in their Glory Days was Ian Rush.

And today their forwards display similar ability. 

Great on the ball and high aerobic and anaerobic capacities to meet the team needs.  Its a case of the Manager deciding what the team is then what players need to be to fit into it. That principle defensively is that the forwards will press with intensity for the term or they are out (Daniel Sturridge) was in place three seasons ago from the outset of Klopp coming to the club.

City? Playing principles? We are never sure season to season. 

[cidered abroad]

25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And today their forwards display similar ability. 

Great on the ball and high aerobic and anaerobic capacities to meet the team needs.  Its a case of the Manager deciding what the team is then what players need to be to fit into it. That principle defensively is that the forwards will press with intensity for the term or they are out (Daniel Sturridge) was in place three seasons ago from the outset of Klopp coming to the club.

City? Playing principles? We are never sure season to season. 

I believe that we are getting somewhere near what LJ wants. I was one of his biggest critics at the beginning and I'm still not 100% sure of his ability to manage at this level. Liverpool brought in a proven one in Klopp who quickly decided who he wanted to keep and who would be surplus. More importantly he was able to recruit who he wanted almost straight away. Maybe Lee was the same but due to his inexperience and loss making finances, was not able to walk in and "sort it!" immediately a le Klopp?

But the names and quality being mentioned and already signed, give me a real hope that we are becoming almost ready for significant progression up the ladder.

[downendcity]

On 05/08/2019 at 11:36, hodge said:

I think it needs to be kept in mind Leeds were excellent, pretty much nailed on they will be in the play offs at least this year. Does that excuse our performance, no, we were sub par but Leeds were excellent and we won't be facing teams of their pace, movement and skill each week in this league. 

Unfortunately though every other team will be facing us, with our pace, movement and skill.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Trueredsupporter said:

@spudski agree that defence starts from the front do you think FD should be pressing or getting into a shape? in the johnsons words thread there are posters saying FD works tirelessly??? 

I think that all too often he works tirelessly but ponderously. 

I know that big men are often deceptively quick, but FD seems to sprint in slo motion.

[Cowshed]

32 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I believe that we are getting somewhere near what LJ wants. I was one of his biggest critics at the beginning and I'm still not 100% sure of his ability to manage at this level. Liverpool brought in a proven one in Klopp who quickly decided who he wanted to keep and who would be surplus. More importantly he was able to recruit who he wanted almost straight away. Maybe Lee was the same but due to his inexperience and loss making finances, was not able to walk in and "sort it!" immediately a le Klopp?

But the names and quality being mentioned and already signed, give me a real hope that we are becoming almost ready for significant progression up the ladder.

More importantly he had a clear idea of what he wanted to do and the process of how. He uses a entirely different approach v Johnson. This approach is based on a clear model of play broken down into five elements. It is not solely dependant on finance, it is dependant on clarity of approach. 

Lee Johnson has used multiple styles of play which means far more elements = Complexity. 

On sunday Lee Johnson played two players in Diedihiou and Palmer who provided no defensive cover and were lazy. That they behaved in this manner is not a surprise due to the evidence of seeing them already in the team over a significant period and a very extended period. One was a new signing. That they played as lethargically as they did is a reflection of the Manager. 

Lee Johnson has a bloated squad and is getting yet more bodies in. Hopefully we will see his identity, his greater picture soon ..  

[keflav]

The best form of defence is attack, so basically were Fuxked at the moment