The Pathway

[Prinny]

If the first team was more successful we'd have been in a much better position to have kept Reid, Bryan, Kelly, if it were less successful a few of these players being "blocked" would be ready. The first team level is a moving target. We've had to/chose to sell the ones who are at that level. And because we're not a cat 1 in the Premier league, the top talent that shines at lower level like the Herbie Kane's are being picked from us. The standard for the first team is higher and we're working as a club to make the youth players match that. We're working on the training ground. We have good players coming through at younger ages according to Tinnion.

We signed a goalkeeper in Gilmartin to allow two academy players to go out on loan and develop. He's blocking the pathway! Or is he helping it? Depends what your goal is. To get the best out of these players or to fill the team with academy players no matter their standard. I think for a couple of you the goal is to undermine the clubs clear progress and pretend that the academy isn't doing better than before at developing and recruiting more talent. I think it's to take the snapshot of no academy players really in the first 11 this precise moment and to use it as a weapon to say there is no pathway into the first team.

You should go listen to Shtanley's interview with Tinnion https://onestreaminbristol.libsyn.com/a-cider-with-brian-tinnion about the development of players at the club and the pathway.

The pathway is clear. Prove you're good enough. Do that in youth football to prove you're good enough to go out on loan. Do that out on loan to prove you deserve an opportunity here. Do that here in training and on tour to prove you deserve to be around the first team. Do that with your opportunities in the first team. Just because there is no one right this second who's at the end of the pathway doesn't mean there aren't players walking it.

[Lrrr]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. What point is it that you are making?

My point is a lot of clubs don't have 6 (vyner playing in same division as well) academy players in their 1st team, its hard to produce academy players every year as once you finish u18's you have 5 year groups of possible players who fill the u23's, as a club we send all our 23's out on loan so the only ones at the club who 'could' feature in the first XI are u18's players and therefore unlikely to do so. What should be measured is how many players out on loan move up a league to where they were the previous year as that is their progression, finalised when they reach the first team. 

[eardun]

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

4 years ago we had Bryan playing a big role, Reid being a bit part player and Vyner and Kelly still relatively unknown. 

Now Bryan, Reid and Kelly have been sold to premier league clubs. Vyner just completed a full championship season and is now in the Europa League. 

We also have roughly 10(or soon to be 10+ with Smith and Bakinson possibly) football league loanees. Not to mention another 5-6 close to that level in their teens. 

So I can’t see how there is no pathway. It is a pathway to professional football in the league which is the goal. Also setting them up to be top professionals. To expect us to roll out 1-2 new starters from out academy is just unrealistic. Southampton was brought up but they are a tier 1 academy and we are not. They can take almost any player from any team in the country for minimal compensation. Of course they can produce more than we can. It is like saying how come we didn’t buy Rodri instead of Man city. Completely different levels. 

The pathway is not only in its infancy but also already producing results. Even if Vyner and all the other league loanees do not make it for us, they have been made into saleable assets. Now it does us no good to sell before we get good looks at them but at worst we will be selling for fees to cover the academy expenses and a few sell ons will line our pockets towards FFP every couple years. That is just the start!

Agree with all of this. And the loans out to lower division clubs are all part of the pathway - we did the same with Bryan and Reid. The fact that they are out on loan does not mean that we are blocking their pathway; it just means they are not ready for championship football with us (yet - for some of them; for others they won’t quite make it but we will bag a fee).

[Bristol Rob]

Stands to reason.

The further up the footballing pyramid we move, the fewer academy players will be first team ready. 

If we were in the Conference or League 2, we would probably have an entire side made up of academy graduates. 

[Davefevs]

54 minutes ago, Prinny said:

If the first team was more successful we'd have been in a much better position to have kept Reid, Bryan, Kelly, if it were less successful a few of these players being "blocked" would be ready. The first team level is a moving target. We've had to/chose to sell the ones who are at that level. And because we're not a cat 1 in the Premier league, the top talent that shines at lower level like the Herbie Kane's are being picked from us. The standard for the first team is higher and we're working as a club to make the youth players match that. We're working on the training ground. We have good players coming through at younger ages according to Tinnion.

We signed a goalkeeper in Gilmartin to allow two academy players to go out on loan and develop. He's blocking the pathway! Or is he helping it? Depends what your goal is. To get the best out of these players or to fill the team with academy players no matter their standard. I think for a couple of you the goal is to undermine the clubs clear progress and pretend that the academy isn't doing better than before at developing and recruiting more talent. I think it's to take the snapshot of no academy players really in the first 11 this precise moment and to use it as a weapon to say there is no pathway into the first team.

You should go listen to Shtanley's interview with Tinnion https://onestreaminbristol.libsyn.com/a-cider-with-brian-tinnion about the development of players at the club and the pathway.

The pathway is clear. Prove you're good enough. Do that in youth football to prove you're good enough to go out on loan. Do that out on loan to prove you deserve an opportunity here. Do that here in training and on tour to prove you deserve to be around the first team. Do that with your opportunities in the first team. Just because there is no one right this second who's at the end of the pathway doesn't mean there aren't players walking it.

Nice post.

the bold bit.  Spot on.  I’m a bit critical that LJ is a bit reticent to pick some youngsters, but in fairness if they are genuinely good enough / ready, he will pick them.  It should be a marker to others to up their game.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

If the first team was more successful we'd have been in a much better position to have kept Reid, Bryan, Kelly, if it were less successful a few of these players being "blocked" would be ready. The first team level is a moving target. We've had to/chose to sell the ones who are at that level. And because we're not a cat 1 in the Premier league, the top talent that shines at lower level like the Herbie Kane's are being picked from us. The standard for the first team is higher and we're working as a club to make the youth players match that. We're working on the training ground. We have good players coming through at younger ages according to Tinnion.

We signed a goalkeeper in Gilmartin to allow two academy players to go out on loan and develop. He's blocking the pathway! Or is he helping it? Depends what your goal is. To get the best out of these players or to fill the team with academy players no matter their standard. I think for a couple of you the goal is to undermine the clubs clear progress and pretend that the academy isn't doing better than before at developing and recruiting more talent. I think it's to take the snapshot of no academy players really in the first 11 this precise moment and to use it as a weapon to say there is no pathway into the first team.

You should go listen to Shtanley's interview with Tinnion https://onestreaminbristol.libsyn.com/a-cider-with-brian-tinnion about the development of players at the club and the pathway.

The pathway is clear. Prove you're good enough. Do that in youth football to prove you're good enough to go out on loan. Do that out on loan to prove you deserve an opportunity here. Do that here in training and on tour to prove you deserve to be around the first team. Do that with your opportunities in the first team. Just because there is no one right this second who's at the end of the pathway doesn't mean there aren't players walking it.

Excellent points. Gilmartin is clearing the pathway for our goalkeepers to be loaned out to become ready, a bit like Rowe is possibly here until Pring or a different left back coming through is ready. That might take 2 years, and by then Rowe is released and we already have his replacement. 

I think even the quality signings like maybe Nagy is, there is a thought that he will probably be sold in 2 years if we don't go up, by which time Morrell is ready to take his place for example.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

Looks to me like LJ does not rate any of the 20 to 23 year olds. He did Kelly, and played him. Possibly O'Leary who is getting game time, but the others, even then if O'leary does well what is the point on coming back to City and sit on the bench, far better to join another club. Vyner has no future at the club either. Did not take him long to dump Taylor Moore . Who else is going to make the City first team over the next 2 seasons ? Semenyo ?  We are struggling to find a home-grown player to put in the match day squad.  LJ could be right, maybe the quality is not there for a top 6 championship side (future Prem level) . How many of our youth players are on the England under 21 radar like Kelly was ?  I personally do not see a pathway for academy players, far too many signed externally now ,  the model has changed to being a platform for purchased players to catch the eye of a Prem side , and possibly, as a junior version of the Chelsea model, a system to develop players who will never play for the club but work as a business. 

Seems it is easier to buy Chelsea developed players and let them do the hard work. 

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

Whatever other concerns about LJ , I Personally havnt seen any evidence from a young player that suggests he should have seen more game time

In fact I think LJ has been reasonably generous in giving some a chance , IMHO and got Lloyd Kelly’s game time about right

If anything th pathway is likely to be blocked by a player in limbo , getting older but not trusted

I think Lee likes to hedge his bets a tad,  and personally would like to see us be decisive about some of the ones for the future , even if it means letting them go , for a lowish fee , with a buy back clause or big sell on  

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Whatever other concerns about LJ , I Personally havnt seen any evidence from a young player that suggests he should have seen more game time

In fact I think LJ has been reasonably generous in giving some a chance , IMHO and got Lloyd Kelly’s game time about right

If anything th pathway is likely to be blocked by a player in limbo , getting older but not trusted

I think Lee likes to hedge his bets a tad,  and personally would like to see us be decisive about some of the ones for the future , even if it means letting them go , for a lowish fee , with a buy back clause or big sell on  

I agree. 

Kelly didn’t even go on loan. 

I think part of the problem (eluded to by LJ over the summer) is that City as a club gave improved and done players haven’t matched that improvement. 

Perhaps if we were a bottom half team, Vyner might have got more time?

Also LJ has played youngsters, they just might not have come through our Academy, Brownhill, Dasilva 

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

You got to play the players. Otherwise it is not there. Yes they have to be good. After Kelly there is no one close. They might as well shut it and buy externally as indeed  they are doing. 

I know what you’re saying BW, but the whole Cat1 can take who they want doesn’t help.  Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox....I suspect there are plenty of others too.

[cidered abroad]

I've watched City youth teams in the pre Academy days and in the last six years since I returned to live here.

From the Fifties to the Noughties, we produced some very good first team players. However, the supply was inconsistent, possibly because financial restraints often meant that there was zero money to spend on youth. A youth policy can cost a lot for little reward if the quality of the staff in finding them is not up to it.

And some managers actively ignored a youth policy, with Cotterill being a good example. He bought a promotion team although could not ignore Joe Bryan who was first played in the league side by McInnes.

So our Academy was only really started seriously and professionally about four/ five years ago. We had half a dozen promising ones, Kelly, Vyner, Morrell, O'Leary among them.

We did a quick top up by buying some like Jonny Smith, Bakinson .

But now,according to Tinnion, we have some very promising under 18/19 lads who will take another two to five years to make any breakthrough in to the first team.

The current Academy/ Youth policy will bring returns but we cannot expect it to happen overnight. I'm confident it will produce more first teamers than we have for many years.

[Three Lions]

If the academy doesn't produce players for the squad and first team it can be downgraded. If it doesn't put players in the first team it loses its reputation. Citys academy has never had a great reputation either. More Joes and Bobbys are needed not less.

[Three Lions]

Good to see City scouts out yesterday at Whitchurch and Lord Joe Jordan.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Three Lions said:

Good to see City scouts out yesterday at Whitchurch and Lord Joe Jordan.

Does he do any work for us now? I know he's based in the area.

[Rossineri]

City had 4 scouts at Whitchurch on Sat and Sunday. Southampton had two, Rovers had two and Cardiff 1 each day. 

Joe was watching his grand son play.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 10/08/2019 at 19:43, CHAZ MICHAELS said:

I'll predict that next season Morrell, O'Leary, Semenyo and Janneh will all be involved in the first team squad.

Maybe a year too soon for him- whose he gone on loan to this season?

[Carey 6]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Maybe a year too soon for him- whose he gone on loan to this season?

He was meant to be joining Doncaster but got injured. 

[italian dave]

On 11/08/2019 at 16:51, Davefevs said:

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

Except at the other end of the pathway (Louis Carey)! 

[Guest]

On 11/08/2019 at 17:35, Davefevs said:

I know what you’re saying BW, but the whole Cat1 can take who they want doesn’t help.  Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox....I suspect there are plenty of others too.

That’s the problem, we need to be a Cat 1 Academy to avoid losing our best youngsters.

if I have one gripe with SL it’s that we don’t seem to want to be a CAT1 club, it can’t happen overnight because it needs a lot of infrastructure to achieve, however SL does have the money and could finance the upgrade if he was inclined to do so.

Spending on Academy’s is outside the FFFP rules so far as I’m aware.

 

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, Countryfile said:

That’s the problem, we need to be a Cat 1 Academy to avoid losing our best youngsters.

if I have one gripe with SL it’s that we don’t seem to want to be a CAT1 club, it can’t happen overnight because it needs a lot of infrastructure to achieve, however SL does have the money and could finance the upgrade if he was inclined to do so.

Spending on Academy’s is outside the FFFP rules so far as I’m aware.

 

However you have to have x number of full time staff in certain positions and other things which incur a higher running cost too

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

That’s the problem, we need to be a Cat 1 Academy to avoid losing our best youngsters.

if I have one gripe with SL it’s that we don’t seem to want to be a CAT1 club, it can’t happen overnight because it needs a lot of infrastructure to achieve, however SL does have the money and could finance the upgrade if he was inclined to do so.

Spending on Academy’s is outside the FFFP rules so far as I’m aware.

 

Not exactly because reputation and what a club does goes before it. Cat 1 is a criteria. a club can still give a player more 1 2 1 coaching hours, input, education, effort these things are elastic but if a club cuts down on opportunity? If a club ceases to have that evidence base of developed kids in its XI and squad?  

I agree about facilities. City currently share at the WISE campus, its good but the academy has helped to make made tens of millions for the FC and shares its facilities with a college. That does not necessarily cut down on the above, but it highlights that better can be done with focus. Yes spending on infra structure is outside of those rules.

[aa_bcfc]

On 10/08/2019 at 15:26, Ian M said:

Also Cam Pring will replace JD when he leaves for £12m next Summer. 

Pring should have stayed as back-up this season. Ok Rowe scored a good goal on Saturday but he ain’t the future. 

[aa_bcfc]

On 10/08/2019 at 19:43, CHAZ MICHAELS said:

I'll predict that next season Morrell, O'Leary, Semenyo and Janneh will all be involved in the first team squad.

In my opinion there was no need to sign Bentley. O’Leary showed last season that he was good enough to share the goalkeeper spot as the back up keeper. Why are we signing a backup from Colchester god only knows (and LJ). 

[Lrrr]

2 hours ago, aa_bcfc said:

In my opinion there was no need to sign Bentley. O’Leary showed last season that he was good enough to share the goalkeeper spot as the back up keeper. Why are we signing a backup from Colchester god only knows (and LJ). 

So that we have 3 goalkeepers? Even if we kept Max and didn't sign Bentley we'd have signed a 3rd keeper.

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, aa_bcfc said:

In my opinion there was no need to sign Bentley. O’Leary showed last season that he was good enough to share the goalkeeper spot as the back up keeper. Why are we signing a backup from Colchester god only knows (and LJ). 

I think if LJ was completely happy with MOL he wouldn’t have let him go.  Mäenpää’s injuries meant LJ wanted a GK he was happy with, hence Bentley (at £2-4m a good recruit) was signed.  It meant Max now no2 at best, and when Niki’s Back, he’s then no3....and not getting any games.

What they’ve done is realise that Max needs games, sent him on loan, and brought Gilmartin to give a bit of cover if Niki cant stay fit and Bentley gets injured / poor form.

With Mäenpää’s contract up next summer Max can come back and be a genuine challenger for Bentley (for years to come)....if LJ truly believes in him.