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RaspberryRed

The Pathway

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I thought the Most recent mantra from the chairman to the new young manager was all about "The Project''  and even more so ''The Pathway'' which promoted the opportunity for our Academy stars to see the proof of a clear pathway to the first team.

Looking at today's squad and those going forward it would look like that has been clearly neglected or worse abandoned!  It looks like we have decided to instead purchase said youngsters from Europe. If so what is the point of the academy system that I imagine comes at a huge cost. Where is the next Bobby, Joe or Lloyd? Don't get me wrong I would imagine those three alone have paid for a decade of financing the Academy I'm just concerned where our next home grown/nurtured talent is. 

I would dearly love Mark Ashton, Lee Johnson, Brian Tinnion to Outline who they think will be pushing for place in the squad this season and beyond.

He's one of our own seems like it won't be sung for a while

Edited by RaspberryRed
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20 minutes ago, RaspberryRed said:

I thought the Most recent mantra from the chairman to the new young manager was all about "The Project''  and even more so ''The Pathway'' which promoted the opportunity for our Academy stars to see the proof of a clear pathway to the first team.

Looking at today's squad and those going forward it would look like that has been clearly neglected or worse abandoned!  It looks like we have decided to instead purchase said youngsters from Europe. If so what is the point of the academy system that I imagine comes at a huge cost. Where is the next Bobby, Joe or Lloyd? Don't get me wrong I would imagine those three alone have paid for a decade of financing the Academy I'm just concerned where our next home grown/nurtured talent is. 

I would dearly love Mark Ashton, Lee Johnson, Brian Tinnion to Outline who they think will be pushing for place in the squad this season and beyond.

He's one of our own seems like it won't be sung for a while

Currently getting game time at Lincoln, Walsall and Forest Green Rovers 😉

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We sold all the good ones, now time for the next set. Semenyo is on the bench, O'Leary out in loan, calm down.

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2 minutes ago, TBW said:

We sold all the good ones, now time for the next set. Semenyo is on the bench, O'Leary out in loan, calm down.

Also Cam Pring will replace JD when he leaves for £12m next Summer. 

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1 hour ago, TBW said:

We sold all the good ones, now time for the next set. Semenyo is on the bench, O'Leary out in loan, calm down.

I'm not uncalm it was prompted by a convo earlier with my Brother

So the answer is 1 pushing for a 1st Team match day squad place. Not a shining reflection of the Clubs future starlets/Academy

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One thing to remember is that 'the pathway' is not necessarily a pathway to play for Bristol City, but one to play professional football. Most of the lads in the u23s won't be good enough for Championship Bristol City, but if they get a good footballing education and end up having a good career in L1/L2 then it still reflects well on our system

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2 hours ago, RaspberryRed said:

I thought the Most recent mantra from the chairman to the new young manager was all about "The Project''  and even more so ''The Pathway'' which promoted the opportunity for our Academy stars to see the proof of a clear pathway to the first team.

Looking at today's squad and those going forward it would look like that has been clearly neglected or worse abandoned!  It looks like we have decided to instead purchase said youngsters from Europe. If so what is the point of the academy system that I imagine comes at a huge cost. Where is the next Bobby, Joe or Lloyd? Don't get me wrong I would imagine those three alone have paid for a decade of financing the Academy I'm just concerned where our next home grown/nurtured talent is. 

I would dearly love Mark Ashton, Lee Johnson, Brian Tinnion to Outline who they think will be pushing for place in the squad this season and beyond.

He's one of our own seems like it won't be sung for a while

You have a point but there has to be a balance.

Getting promotion with a squad packed full of players that have come through the academy simply is not going to happpen.

Even if we had the patience to wait for that squad to get together the best ones would be bought way before we reached the PL, by richer - PL - clubs.

The Academy has and will produce players but the aim and target is the PL, now, when we get there we won’t have to sell the best prospects and there is a likelihood of a stronger representation in the PL........over time.

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7 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

One thing to remember is that 'the pathway' is not necessarily a pathway to play for Bristol City, but one to play professional football. Most of the lads in the u23s won't be good enough for Championship Bristol City, but if they get a good footballing education and end up having a good career in L1/L2 then it still reflects well on our system

Exactly the point and a funding stream for a club like us with no parachute payments

If we can develop players and sell them on for a profit whether they are U23s or first team then that will enable the club to be self sufficient

What would be ideal is that we find and develop a couple of real diamonds rather than the big clubs take them from under our noses for a pittance 

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'Success' from the academy isn't measured solely by which players play for Bristol City. If we continue to progress, the percentage of kids good enough to make the first team continuously shrinks.

Success is then also measured by how many academy players we can sell to clubs in League 1&2 and elsewhere who go on to have good careers. One example is Luke Wilkinson; former academy player a couple of years above Bobby and Joe - didn't quite make it here but is having a respectable career in his own right at various lower league clubs. 

Players like him who go on to have successful pro careers also are testament to the value of our academy. If we continue to push on as a club, there will be more and more players like him who started out here but didn't quite make it. Players like Bobby, Joe and Lloyd come along very rarely. 

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19 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

'Success' from the academy isn't measured solely by which players play for Bristol City. If we continue to progress, the percentage of kids good enough to make the first team continuously shrinks.

Success is then also measured by how many academy players we can sell to clubs in League 1&2 and elsewhere who go on to have good careers. One example is Luke Wilkinson; former academy player a couple of years above Bobby and Joe - didn't quite make it here but is having a respectable career in his own right at various lower league clubs. 

Players like him who go on to have successful pro careers also are testament to the value of our academy. If we continue to push on as a club, there will be more and more players like him who started out here but didn't quite make it. Players like Bobby, Joe and Lloyd come along very rarely. 

Academy coaches state something very different. Its success IS measured by how many players from the academy make the first team. If it is  not producing players for the first team it is failing. Recruitment is based upon this is the kids pathway to the first team. This is the academy coaches own words!!

 

 

Edited by Cowshed
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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Academy coaches state something very different. Its success IS measured by how many players from the academy make the first team. If it is  not producing players for the first team it is failing. Recruitment is based upon this is the kids pathway to the first team. This is the academy coaches own words!!

 

 

From a coaches POV perhaps, but their priorities aren't necessarily reflective of the overall benefit for the club as a business. If we are regularly producing players who go on to have respectable careers in L1&2, as well as those that play for Bristol City, it makes the club more money and makes the academy more attractive for young players and their parents. 

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8 minutes ago, CHAZ MICHAELS said:

I'll predict that next season Morrell, O'Leary, Semenyo and Janneh will all be involved in the first team squad.

Morrell MOTM contender again today

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1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

From a coaches POV perhaps, but their priorities

Are part of a stated articulated vision to produce players for the first team.

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The problem is we’ve been too fortunate by having 3 academy players move into the first team before going off to bigger and better things in the last few years.

That sort of thing isn’t very common at all for a club of our size, with the likes of Southampton sniffing around for the best players in this area, but as it has happened we almost feel entitled to see more youth players coming through.

As others have said, our academy should be judged on how well our players do in league football, not just with us.

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Are part of a stated articulated vision to produce players for the first team.

Well obviously the club isn’t going to state ‘if you are good enough, you might make it here - if not, we’ll sell you to Luton or Yeovil’.

 

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4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Academy coaches state something very different. Its success IS measured by how many players from the academy make the first team. If it is  not producing players for the first team it is failing. Recruitment is based upon this is the kids pathway to the first team. This is the academy coaches own words!!

 

 

Didn’t Joe Bryan and Bobby Reid go out on loan before being established in our first team? The likes of Lloyd Kelly who are good enough to go straight in to our first team are very rare.

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5 hours ago, RaspberryRed said:

I'm not uncalm it was prompted by a convo earlier with my Brother

So the answer is 1 pushing for a 1st Team match day squad place. Not a shining reflection of the Clubs future starlets/Academy

I think your 'convo' with your brother clearly didn't involve a Fosters because your post is clearly not a good call.

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7 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Well obviously the club isn’t going to state ‘if you are good enough, you might make it here - if not, we’ll sell you to Luton or Yeovil’.

 

Yes. Which necessitates clear success to make the statements they do to recruit young talent. These statements are given to parents and players. The consistent expectation is too have numerous players coming through the pathway into the squad and in the XI. The club and coaches rich rhetoric is very very clear on this. The academy is a pathway to the first team and if it is not producing players for that team it is failing, that is its purpose, that is its measurement and the staff running it could not be more unequivocal about this.

8 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Didn’t Joe Bryan and Bobby Reid go out on loan before being established in our first team? The likes of Lloyd Kelly who are good enough to go straight in to our first team are very rare.

Yes. And players do go straight into the XI. But that was not the posters point. Academy status is measured by its success of producing players for its XI.

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25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. Which necessitates clear success to make the statements they do to recruit young talent. These statements are given to parents and players. The consistent expectation is too have numerous players coming through the pathway into the squad and in the XI. The club and coaches rich rhetoric is very very clear on this. The academy is a pathway to the first team and if it is not producing players for that team it is failing, that is its purpose, that is its measurement and the staff running it could not be more unequivocal about this.

Yes. And players do go straight into the XI. But that was not the posters point. Academy status is measured by its success of producing players for its XI.

Okay and in the last 2 seasons before this one we've had what, 6 academy players feature in the first team? 

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I think what we’ve seen recently is a progression in the quality of players coming through the academy, but a much faster progression in the quality of our first team. That makes it less likely that graduates will make the step up, in the short term at least. 

Longer term the pathway we’ve demonstrated, combined with the higher quality first team, will improve the quality of academy entrants and therefore graduates. It will catch up.

But that is a long term play and I don’t think we should be too worried about this intervening period. 

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We are 2 games into the season, if none of the academy kids that are not out on loan have not had a game before Xmas feel free to revisit this thread. Would you really have taken two or three kids and thrown them in with half a team they haven't even met yet?

Edited by Port Said Red

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So in the last 12 months the "pathway" has led to £30,000,000 income. We also have a good number out on loan helping bridge the gap between Academy football and Championship football and a potentially exciting first team player in Semenyo. 

So to answer the OP- the next Joe, Bobby or Lloyd are already either in the team or out on loan learning their trade.

When it comes to using our own and/or big money signings of  young players with great potential - it's damed if you do and damned if you don't depending on which thread you're reading.

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3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. Which necessitates clear success to make the statements they do to recruit young talent. These statements are given to parents and players. The consistent expectation is too have numerous players coming through the pathway into the squad and in the XI. The club and coaches rich rhetoric is very very clear on this. The academy is a pathway to the first team and if it is not producing players for that team it is failing, that is its purpose, that is its measurement and the staff running it could not be more unequivocal about this.

Again, academy staff perhaps - but their priorities aren’t necessarily in line with the priorities of the club as a business. 

I don’t know why you’re being so argumentative about this really. Doesn’t seem like there’s much to debate.

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2 hours ago, hodge said:

Okay and in the last 2 seasons before this one we've had what, 6 academy players feature in the first team? 

Yes. What point is it that you are making? Is that an example of excellence or something else? 

The opening poster makes a point about the pathway being blocked. It is a reasonable point to make. This season could easily see no players coming through the academy making a significant impact in the  XI. This could become the norm. If that is the reality, it is, or can be a repositioning of the academy. 

Does this reflect other models? Yes and no. 

 

10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Again, academy staff perhaps - but their priorities aren’t necessarily in line with the priorities of the club as a business. 

I don’t know why you’re being so argumentative about this really. Doesn’t seem like there’s much to debate.

The staff are part of the club. 

I find it odd that anybody cannot see that an academies priorities are not to produce talent for its parent XI. The academies entire coaching philosophy is based upon that priority. Its in the presentations given to prospective academy parents and players, its part of the process. 

All I answered was your points which fly in the face of the clubsWith all respect to yourself you are not Brian Tinnion etc. Argue with him. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. Which necessitates clear success to make the statements they do to recruit young talent. These statements are given to parents and players. The consistent expectation is too have numerous players coming through the pathway into the squad and in the XI. The club and coaches rich rhetoric is very very clear on this. The academy is a pathway to the first team and if it is not producing players for that team it is failing, that is its purpose, that is its measurement and the staff running it could not be more unequivocal about this.

Yes. And players do go straight into the XI. But that was not the posters point. Academy status is measured by its success of producing players for its XI.

I think like others have said the club will make a lot of money as well as helping young players have good careers in lower leagues.

But I also think many will make it with us, as long as we don't go up which would then make it harder.

O'Leary, Pring, Vyner, Morrell, Bakinson, Semenyo and Janneh I all fancy to make it with us.I really like James Morton too. 

Tinman seems more excited by the next lot coming through too. Who knows how good some of they are, but they beat Juventus and Monaco, plus won a tournament with some big clubs involved.

I think we've put so much effort into our youth in recent years that we could end up with more than the usual amount making it with us.

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12 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think like others have said the club will make a lot of money as well as helping young players have good careers in lower leagues.

But I also think many will make it with us, as long as we don't go up which would then make it harder.

O'Leary, Pring, Vyner, Morrell, Bakinson, Semenyo and Janneh I all fancy to make it with us.I really like James Morton too. 

Tinman seems more excited by the next lot coming through too. Who knows how good some of they are, but they beat Juventus and Monaco, plus won a tournament with some big clubs involved.

I think we've put so much effort into our youth in recent years that we could end up with more than the usual amount making it with us.

And what I have heard is coaches being more circumspect about the future. The positioning of the academy is altering - We don't here much about Jon Lansdowns A level project the five pillars anymore. The academy saw success, proved worth and could be built upon. Constantly enlarging squads is/can be blocking not building which was the opening posters point.

Southampton went up and down and still put players consistently in the XI. Their means was always evident. The club and academy had to do it.    

Edited by Cowshed

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17 hours ago, RaspberryRed said:

I'm not uncalm it was prompted by a convo earlier with my Brother

So the answer is 1 pushing for a 1st Team match day squad place. Not a shining reflection of the Clubs future starlets/Academy

It’s not a conveyer belt . We had a few come through that we sold on . There are plenty out on loan . Apart from Semenyo none of the others are good enough yet. There’s not one club in the country that has continuous players coming through that’s good enough for their first team . 

Would you like us to fill the first team with academy players and get relegated ? 

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44 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The staff are part of the club. 

I find it odd that anybody cannot see that an academies priorities are not to produce talent for its parent XI. The academies entire coaching philosophy is based upon that priority. Its in the presentations given to prospective academy parents and players, its part of the process. 

All I answered was your points which fly in the face of the clubsWith all respect to yourself you are not Brian Tinnion etc. Argue with him. 

I don't really know why I have to explain it again - but the academy staff's priorities aren't necessarily in line with the bigger picture. 

It obviously shows our academy is a successful one if players who don't quite make the grade can have good careers elsewhere. Obviously it would be great if every single academy graduate played for our first team, but that's not realistic. It is also positive if those who don't quite make the grade can have respectable careers at decent clubs at a slightly lower level. 

This helps the club at a business level, because it makes money for the club. It boosts the reputation of our academy, which is a positive if it helps parents decide where to send their child.

Look at Chelsea, they produce many players who don't quite make the grade, does it mean Chelsea's academy is failing? No.

I think that you believe you know more than anyone on this forum about youth football, that may well be the case - I don't really know. In this instance though I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me - that's fine, but we're not going to change each other's points of view so seems a bit pointless continuing. 

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4 years ago we had Bryan playing a big role, Reid being a bit part player and Vyner and Kelly still relatively unknown. 

Now Bryan, Reid and Kelly have been sold to premier league clubs. Vyner just completed a full championship season and is now in the Europa League. 

We also have roughly 10(or soon to be 10+ with Smith and Bakinson possibly) football league loanees. Not to mention another 5-6 close to that level in their teens. 

So I can’t see how there is no pathway. It is a pathway to professional football in the league which is the goal. Also setting them up to be top professionals. To expect us to roll out 1-2 new starters from out academy is just unrealistic. Southampton was brought up but they are a tier 1 academy and we are not. They can take almost any player from any team in the country for minimal compensation. Of course they can produce more than we can. It is like saying how come we didn’t buy Rodri instead of Man city. Completely different levels. 

The pathway is not only in its infancy but also already producing results. Even if Vyner and all the other league loanees do not make it for us, they have been made into saleable assets. Now it does us no good to sell before we get good looks at them but at worst we will be selling for fees to cover the academy expenses and a few sell ons will line our pockets towards FFP every couple years. That is just the start!

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If the first team was more successful we'd have been in a much better position to have kept Reid, Bryan, Kelly, if it were less successful a few of these players being "blocked" would be ready. The first team level is a moving target. We've had to/chose to sell the ones who are at that level. And because we're not a cat 1 in the Premier league, the top talent that shines at lower level like the Herbie Kane's are being picked from us. The standard for the first team is higher and we're working as a club to make the youth players match that. We're working on the training ground. We have good players coming through at younger ages according to Tinnion.

We signed a goalkeeper in Gilmartin to allow two academy players to go out on loan and develop. He's blocking the pathway! Or is he helping it? Depends what your goal is. To get the best out of these players or to fill the team with academy players no matter their standard. I think for a couple of you the goal is to undermine the clubs clear progress and pretend that the academy isn't doing better than before at developing and recruiting more talent. I think it's to take the snapshot of no academy players really in the first 11 this precise moment and to use it as a weapon to say there is no pathway into the first team.

You should go listen to Shtanley's interview with Tinnion https://onestreaminbristol.libsyn.com/a-cider-with-brian-tinnion about the development of players at the club and the pathway.

The pathway is clear. Prove you're good enough. Do that in youth football to prove you're good enough to go out on loan. Do that out on loan to prove you deserve an opportunity here. Do that here in training and on tour to prove you deserve to be around the first team. Do that with your opportunities in the first team. Just because there is no one right this second who's at the end of the pathway doesn't mean there aren't players walking it.

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2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. What point is it that you are making?

My point is a lot of clubs don't have 6 (vyner playing in same division as well) academy players in their 1st team, its hard to produce academy players every year as once you finish u18's you have 5 year groups of possible players who fill the u23's, as a club we send all our 23's out on loan so the only ones at the club who 'could' feature in the first XI are u18's players and therefore unlikely to do so. What should be measured is how many players out on loan move up a league to where they were the previous year as that is their progression, finalised when they reach the first team. 

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1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

4 years ago we had Bryan playing a big role, Reid being a bit part player and Vyner and Kelly still relatively unknown. 

Now Bryan, Reid and Kelly have been sold to premier league clubs. Vyner just completed a full championship season and is now in the Europa League. 

We also have roughly 10(or soon to be 10+ with Smith and Bakinson possibly) football league loanees. Not to mention another 5-6 close to that level in their teens. 

So I can’t see how there is no pathway. It is a pathway to professional football in the league which is the goal. Also setting them up to be top professionals. To expect us to roll out 1-2 new starters from out academy is just unrealistic. Southampton was brought up but they are a tier 1 academy and we are not. They can take almost any player from any team in the country for minimal compensation. Of course they can produce more than we can. It is like saying how come we didn’t buy Rodri instead of Man city. Completely different levels. 

The pathway is not only in its infancy but also already producing results. Even if Vyner and all the other league loanees do not make it for us, they have been made into saleable assets. Now it does us no good to sell before we get good looks at them but at worst we will be selling for fees to cover the academy expenses and a few sell ons will line our pockets towards FFP every couple years. That is just the start!

Agree with all of this. And the loans out to lower division clubs are all part of the pathway - we did the same with Bryan and Reid. The fact that they are out on loan does not mean that we are blocking their pathway; it just means they are not ready for championship football with us (yet - for some of them; for others they won’t quite make it but we will bag a fee).

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Stands to reason.

The further up the footballing pyramid we move, the fewer academy players will be first team ready. 

If we were in the Conference or League 2, we would probably have an entire side made up of academy graduates. 

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54 minutes ago, Prinny said:

If the first team was more successful we'd have been in a much better position to have kept Reid, Bryan, Kelly, if it were less successful a few of these players being "blocked" would be ready. The first team level is a moving target. We've had to/chose to sell the ones who are at that level. And because we're not a cat 1 in the Premier league, the top talent that shines at lower level like the Herbie Kane's are being picked from us. The standard for the first team is higher and we're working as a club to make the youth players match that. We're working on the training ground. We have good players coming through at younger ages according to Tinnion.

We signed a goalkeeper in Gilmartin to allow two academy players to go out on loan and develop. He's blocking the pathway! Or is he helping it? Depends what your goal is. To get the best out of these players or to fill the team with academy players no matter their standard. I think for a couple of you the goal is to undermine the clubs clear progress and pretend that the academy isn't doing better than before at developing and recruiting more talent. I think it's to take the snapshot of no academy players really in the first 11 this precise moment and to use it as a weapon to say there is no pathway into the first team.

You should go listen to Shtanley's interview with Tinnion https://onestreaminbristol.libsyn.com/a-cider-with-brian-tinnion about the development of players at the club and the pathway.

The pathway is clear. Prove you're good enough. Do that in youth football to prove you're good enough to go out on loan. Do that out on loan to prove you deserve an opportunity here. Do that here in training and on tour to prove you deserve to be around the first team. Do that with your opportunities in the first team. Just because there is no one right this second who's at the end of the pathway doesn't mean there aren't players walking it.

Nice post.

the bold bit.  Spot on.  I’m a bit critical that LJ is a bit reticent to pick some youngsters, but in fairness if they are genuinely good enough / ready, he will pick them.  It should be a marker to others to up their game.

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1 hour ago, Prinny said:

If the first team was more successful we'd have been in a much better position to have kept Reid, Bryan, Kelly, if it were less successful a few of these players being "blocked" would be ready. The first team level is a moving target. We've had to/chose to sell the ones who are at that level. And because we're not a cat 1 in the Premier league, the top talent that shines at lower level like the Herbie Kane's are being picked from us. The standard for the first team is higher and we're working as a club to make the youth players match that. We're working on the training ground. We have good players coming through at younger ages according to Tinnion.

We signed a goalkeeper in Gilmartin to allow two academy players to go out on loan and develop. He's blocking the pathway! Or is he helping it? Depends what your goal is. To get the best out of these players or to fill the team with academy players no matter their standard. I think for a couple of you the goal is to undermine the clubs clear progress and pretend that the academy isn't doing better than before at developing and recruiting more talent. I think it's to take the snapshot of no academy players really in the first 11 this precise moment and to use it as a weapon to say there is no pathway into the first team.

You should go listen to Shtanley's interview with Tinnion https://onestreaminbristol.libsyn.com/a-cider-with-brian-tinnion about the development of players at the club and the pathway.

The pathway is clear. Prove you're good enough. Do that in youth football to prove you're good enough to go out on loan. Do that out on loan to prove you deserve an opportunity here. Do that here in training and on tour to prove you deserve to be around the first team. Do that with your opportunities in the first team. Just because there is no one right this second who's at the end of the pathway doesn't mean there aren't players walking it.

Excellent points. Gilmartin is clearing the pathway for our goalkeepers to be loaned out to become ready, a bit like Rowe is possibly here until Pring or a different left back coming through is ready. That might take 2 years, and by then Rowe is released and we already have his replacement. 

I think even the quality signings like maybe Nagy is, there is a thought that he will probably be sold in 2 years if we don't go up, by which time Morrell is ready to take his place for example.

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Looks to me like LJ does not rate any of the 20 to 23 year olds. He did Kelly, and played him. Possibly O'Leary who is getting game time, but the others, even then if O'leary does well what is the point on coming back to City and sit on the bench, far better to join another club. Vyner has no future at the club either. Did not take him long to dump Taylor Moore . Who else is going to make the City first team over the next 2 seasons ? Semenyo ?  We are struggling to find a home-grown player to put in the match day squad.  LJ could be right, maybe the quality is not there for a top 6 championship side (future Prem level) . How many of our youth players are on the England under 21 radar like Kelly was ?  I personally do not see a pathway for academy players, far too many signed externally now ,  the model has changed to being a platform for purchased players to catch the eye of a Prem side , and possibly, as a junior version of the Chelsea model, a system to develop players who will never play for the club but work as a business. 

Seems it is easier to buy Chelsea developed players and let them do the hard work. 

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1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

Looks to me like LJ does not rate any of the 20 to 23 year olds. He did Kelly, and played him. Possibly O'Leary who is getting game time, but the others, even then if O'leary does well what is the point on coming back to City and sit on the bench, far better to join another club. Vyner has no future at the club either. Did not take him long to dump Taylor Moore . Who else is going to make the City first team over the next 2 seasons ? Semenyo ?  We are struggling to find a home-grown player to put in the match day squad.  LJ could be right, maybe the quality is not there for a top 6 championship side (future Prem level) . How many of our youth players are on the England under 21 radar like Kelly was ?  I personally do not see a pathway for academy players, far too many signed externally now ,  the model has changed to being a platform for purchased players to catch the eye of a Prem side , and possibly, as a junior version of the Chelsea model, a system to develop players who will never play for the club but work as a business. 

Seems it is easier to buy Chelsea developed players and let them do the hard work. 

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

You got to play the players. Otherwise it is not there. Yes they have to be good. After Kelly there is no one close. They might as well shut it and buy externally as indeed  they are doing. 

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11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

Whatever other concerns about LJ , I Personally havnt seen any evidence from a young player that suggests he should have seen more game time

In fact I think LJ has been reasonably generous in giving some a chance , IMHO and got Lloyd Kelly’s game time about right

If anything th pathway is likely to be blocked by a player in limbo , getting older but not trusted

I think Lee likes to hedge his bets a tad,  and personally would like to see us be decisive about some of the ones for the future , even if it means letting them go , for a lowish fee , with a buy back clause or big sell on  

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11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Whatever other concerns about LJ , I Personally havnt seen any evidence from a young player that suggests he should have seen more game time

In fact I think LJ has been reasonably generous in giving some a chance , IMHO and got Lloyd Kelly’s game time about right

If anything th pathway is likely to be blocked by a player in limbo , getting older but not trusted

I think Lee likes to hedge his bets a tad,  and personally would like to see us be decisive about some of the ones for the future , even if it means letting them go , for a lowish fee , with a buy back clause or big sell on  

I agree. 

Kelly didn’t even go on loan. 

I think part of the problem (eluded to by LJ over the summer) is that City as a club gave improved and done players haven’t matched that improvement. 

Perhaps if we were a bottom half team, Vyner might have got more time?

Also LJ has played youngsters, they just might not have come through our Academy, Brownhill, Dasilva 

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38 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

You got to play the players. Otherwise it is not there. Yes they have to be good. After Kelly there is no one close. They might as well shut it and buy externally as indeed  they are doing. 

I know what you’re saying BW, but the whole Cat1 can take who they want doesn’t help.  Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox....I suspect there are plenty of others too.

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I've watched City youth teams in the pre Academy days and in the last six years since I returned to live here.

From the Fifties to the Noughties, we produced some very good first team players. However, the supply was inconsistent, possibly because financial restraints often meant that there was zero money to spend on youth. A youth policy can cost a lot for little reward if the quality of the staff in finding them is not up to it.

And some managers actively ignored a youth policy, with Cotterill being a good example. He bought a promotion team although could not ignore Joe Bryan who was first played in the league side by McInnes.

So our Academy was only really started seriously and professionally about four/ five years ago. We had half a dozen promising ones, Kelly, Vyner, Morrell, O'Leary among them.

We did a quick top up by buying some like Jonny Smith, Bakinson .

But now,according to Tinnion, we have some very promising under 18/19 lads who will take another two to five years to make any breakthrough in to the first team.

The current Academy/ Youth policy will bring returns but we cannot expect it to happen overnight. I'm confident it will produce more first teamers than we have for many years.

Edited by cidered abroad
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If the academy doesn't produce players for the squad and first team it can be downgraded. If it doesn't put players in the first team it loses its reputation. Citys academy has never had a great reputation either. More Joes and Bobbys are needed not less.

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On 10/08/2019 at 19:43, CHAZ MICHAELS said:

I'll predict that next season Morrell, O'Leary, Semenyo and Janneh will all be involved in the first team squad.

Maybe a year too soon for him- whose he gone on loan to this season?

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Maybe a year too soon for him- whose he gone on loan to this season?

He was meant to be joining Doncaster but got injured. 

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On 11/08/2019 at 16:51, Davefevs said:

I think the pathway is there, but they’ve gotta be good. No sentimental appearances. 

Except at the other end of the pathway (Louis Carey)! 

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