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Red Army 75

Brian Tinnion

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3 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/exclusive-premier-league-clubs-eyeing-3206551

Personally feel it would be a massive mistake to let him go . Has done a fantastic job with the younger players over the last several years. Legend 

Probably won’t be a case of ‘letting him go’. If we keep blocking the pathway then he may well choose to go and there isn’t anything we can do about it...apart from not blocking the pathway.

One could argue that Vyner, Morrell, Walsh, Semenyo and even Pring will get less game time this season than they should. 

I completely understand LJ buying players and not trusting the youth but there are consequences to all decisions 

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If he goes, he goes.

It is a shame but we as fans crave top 6 and so does the board, first team management etc.

If Tins doesn’t like it then he takes his choice but we are where we are  and we need to keep progressing.

Semenyo and Moore will get their chance this year as Bobby, Joey, Lloyd etc did previously and I’m sure if Morrell etc smash it on loan this year then they will be around the first team next year.

Is It pathway blocked or they simply are not at a level to take us forward?

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It’s a tough one.

If we go back a season or two and take centre midfield....we started with Smith, Brownhill and Pack, with the likes of Morrell coming through.  We then add Walsh for a fee.  Smith gets injured last season but LJ never really entrusts Walsh or Morrell to take minutes to rest Pack and Brownhill.  Now brings in Rowe, early in the window and Nagy and Massengo but Pack leaves, whilst Morrell is out on loan....Walsh no further forward.

Thats the simplistic view, but you need to add the fact that City have improved over that time, so someone like Walsh is in no-man’s land, because we don’t really know if he’s good enough.

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12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s a tough one.

If we go back a season or two and take centre midfield....we started with Smith, Brownhill and Pack, with the likes of Morrell coming through.  We then add Walsh for a fee.  Smith gets injured last season but LJ never really entrusts Walsh or Morrell to take minutes to rest Pack and Brownhill.  Now brings in Rowe, early in the window and Nagy and Massengo but Pack leaves, whilst Morrell is out on loan....Walsh no further forward.

Thats the simplistic view, but you need to add the fact that City have improved over that time, so someone like Walsh is in no-man’s land, because we don’t really know if he’s good enough.

We don’t, but only one persons opinion counts, and it’s his head on the block.

 

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Hes got a point , look how well o'leary done last season he deserved his shot this season, instead two new keepers in and hes out on loan , vyners played several championship level games last season bombed out in favour of a loanee of similar age from portugal, if tinnion goes hes absolutely spot on with his reasoning.

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1 minute ago, slartibartfast said:

would we get a fee ?

If he's contracted for any considerable time and there's nothing in it about only giving a weeks notice then we will need to come to an agreement with the new club. Won't be much though. He can't be on more than 30k seeing as they were advertising the under 23 manager job at 35k

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11 minutes ago, pride of the west said:

If he's contracted for any considerable time and there's nothing in it about only giving a weeks notice then we will need to come to an agreement with the new club. Won't be much though. He can't be on more than 30k seeing as they were advertising the under 23 manager job at 35k

Can’t believe Tinman or Luke Williams are on anything as low as £35k pa, but happy to be corrected.

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47 minutes ago, Meh said:

If he goes, he goes.

It is a shame but we as fans crave top 6 and so does the board, first team management etc.

If Tins doesn’t like it then he takes his choice but we are where we are  and we need to keep progressing.

Semenyo and Moore will get their chance this year as Bobby, Joey, Lloyd etc did previously and I’m sure if Morrell etc smash it on loan this year then they will be around the first team next year.

Is It pathway blocked or they simply are not at a level to take us forward?

I think you have it right. Personally I would have been perfectly happy to have 4 or more Academy graduates playing regularly and us finishing mid table but I suspect I am in a pretty small minority.

I understand Tinnion's frustration but he hasn't got the responsibility and pressure LJ has.

As a matter of interest, how many Academy graduates are playing regularly for Southampton?

Edited by chinapig
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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Can’t believe Tinman or Luke Williams are on anything as low as £35k pa, but happy to be corrected.

All the money goes to the first team group.

I can quite believe that figure is accurate.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Can’t believe Tinman or Luke Williams are on anything as low as £35k pa, but happy to be corrected.

That's what they offered on the careers page when we were on the look out for u23 manager. I was shocked myself. That doesn't mean to say Williams didn't come in on his own terms mind after negotiating a wage. 

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2 minutes ago, pride of the west said:

That's what they offered on the careers page when we were on the look out for u23 manager. I was shocked myself. That doesn't mean to say Williams didn't come in on his own terms mind after negotiating a wage. 

Exactly, highly regarded, experience of the hot-seat at Swindon....

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Its a tough one cause the youngsters need to be regularly playing to improve, but a lot wouldn’t get into our starting line up. 

OLeary playing a full season will be so much more benefitial than on the bench for us, same as Pring. They need to earn their stripes and then will be worthy of coming into the team. 

I suppose there is the question of if Max does well, then he should be number one. But we have just signed Bentley so that blocks him. 

Now there is also Massengo, Nagy etc to challenge Morrell/Walsh/Bakinson so is there a path for them? 

Ill be honest it’s not clear what the path is for young players, when we have a young capable team currently, and seem to be upgrading them with new players when they do go. 

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There's no extended quotes in this story. I'm kinda not sure I believe this at face value.

The BP read the Pathway thread and made up a story.

If you listen to his interview with Shtanley he clearly sets out the Pathway for young players at this club. Go prove you're good enough to play for Bristol City somewhere else and you'll get your chance here. And then it's up to you to take it. And that is exactly what is happening. So he is either lying there, or he's had a radical change of philosophy after 1 transfer window. Or the third possibility is if he genuinely thinks Vyner, Semenyo, Pring and Morrell are top half championship level players at this moment and should be in the team, I disagree strongly with his talent evaluation if that's the case. He literally tells us the best thing for players is to go play regular football. He tells us the most important thing is what is right for Bristol City. I find it genuinely bizarre if he's changed his mind so drastically.

From a career perspective, sure, go to a more successful academy in Southampton, get more money for yourself, it's your finances, no problem. We've signed players because the current crop of young talent isn't fully ready. Part of Tinnions job is to get them the loans to make them ready.

"Indeed, we understand several leading figures within the academy are unhappy at seeing the pathway "

There aren't that many leading figures. So, that would basically mean most to all of them. So expect them all to resign? We'll see. The reasons above are why I don't believe the article as it's written. Sure he could definitely go to Southampton, but the reason won't be the stated one IMO, based of what Tinnion himself has said.

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I think you have it right. Personally I would have been perfectly happy to have 4 or more Academy graduates playing regularly and us finishing mid table but I suspect I am in a pretty small minority.

I understand Tinnion's frustration but he hasn't got the responsibility and pressure LJ has.

As a matter of interest, how many Academy graduates are playing regularly for Southampton?

They had one fully homegrown players in their first match day squad on opening weekend. (The other players who I think count as homegrown were taken from other academies at some stage.) James Ward Prowse is the only player to start his development at Southampton who was in that squad. Stephens was taken from Plymouth pretty early on in his career aged  17 ish, same for Valery from Rennes.

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No No NO as some other Legends would say.

I love the fact that  pretty much my favourite all time player is at the club and simply demand that he stays.

And Scott Murray- bloody love the bloke and hope he stays forever.

Edited by Marina's Rolls Royce
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If he does go, he'll be back. City is his home. He left once and came back stronger. He'll return even stronger after he's developed further and made new contacts in the PL. All for the benefit of City.

Trust the plan. :thumbsup:

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1 hour ago, RedDave said:

Probably won’t be a case of ‘letting him go’. If we keep blocking the pathway then he may well choose to go and there isn’t anything we can do about it...apart from not blocking the pathway.

One could argue that Vyner, Morrell, Walsh, Semenyo and even Pring will get less game time this season than they should. 

I completely understand LJ buying players and not trusting the youth but there are consequences to all decisions 

We're not blocking the pathway, loads of our players are playing league football. The pathway is not necessarily to the Bristol City first team, its to professional football. In that respect, we're doing a good job

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9 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

We're not blocking the pathway, loads of our players are playing league football. The pathway is not necessarily to the Bristol City first team, its to professional football. In that respect, we're doing a good job

Tell that to Tinnion if the story of him being annoyed is true 

Edited by RedDave
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7 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

We're not blocking the pathway, loads of our players are playing league football. The pathway is not necessarily to the Bristol City first team, its to professional football. In that respect, we're doing a good job

Exactly...pathway to the first team doesn't mean from U23s to first team.

Most need loans to other teams in the football league to get up to speed with Men's football.

Look at Reid... Plymouth then before you know it...etc.

The higher up the Championship you get the harder it is for a youngster to become a promotion quality player.

It's ok to blood them...but if they make mistakes that lead to defeats, what do you do? 

It's a catch 22.

Put yourself in Tinman's shoes...you see the talent you have loaned out, but because they are your 'baby's ' do you start seeing things through blinkered eyes?

I'm guessing Vyner being loaned to Aberdeen may have caused a feeling of unease.

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I bet Tinnion won’t find the ‘pathway’ any easier working for a premier league club.  Always thought this is something we’ve been good at in recent times

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2 hours ago, RedDave said:

Probably won’t be a case of ‘letting him go’. If we keep blocking the pathway then he may well choose to go and there isn’t anything we can do about it...apart from not blocking the pathway.

One could argue that Vyner, Morrell, Walsh, Semenyo and even Pring will get less game time this season than they should. 

I completely understand LJ buying players and not trusting the youth but there are consequences to all decisions 

He dont like playing kids

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1 hour ago, Prinny said:

There's no extended quotes in this story. I'm kinda not sure I believe this at face value.

The BP read the Pathway thread and made up a story.

If you listen to his interview with Shtanley he clearly sets out the Pathway for young players at this club. Go prove you're good enough to play for Bristol City somewhere else and you'll get your chance here. And then it's up to you to take it. And that is exactly what is happening. So he is either lying there, or he's had a radical change of philosophy after 1 transfer window. Or the third possibility is if he genuinely thinks Vyner, Semenyo, Pring and Morrell are top half championship level players at this moment and should be in the team, I disagree strongly with his talent evaluation if that's the case. He literally tells us the best thing for players is to go play regular football. He tells us the most important thing is what is right for Bristol City. I find it genuinely bizarre if he's changed his mind so drastically.

From a career perspective, sure, go to a more successful academy in Southampton, get more money for yourself, it's your finances, no problem. We've signed players because the current crop of young talent isn't fully ready. Part of Tinnions job is to get them the loans to make them ready.

"Indeed, we understand several leading figures within the academy are unhappy at seeing the pathway "

There aren't that many leading figures. So, that would basically mean most to all of them. So expect them all to resign? We'll see. The reasons above are why I don't believe the article as it's written. Sure he could definitely go to Southampton, but the reason won't be the stated one IMO, based of what Tinnion himself has said.

They had one fully homegrown players in their first match day squad on opening weekend. (The other players who I think count as homegrown were taken from other academies at some stage.) James Ward Prowse is the only player to start his development at Southampton who was in that squad. Stephens was taken from Plymouth pretty early on in his career aged  17 ish, same for Valery from Rennes.

Exactly what I thought. It doesn't match up and I wouldn't take what the EP is saying as gospel. 

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3 hours ago, bengalcub said:

Hes got a point , look how well o'leary done last season he deserved his shot this season, instead two new keepers in and hes out on loan , vyners played several championship level games last season bombed out in favour of a loanee of similar age from portugal, if tinnion goes hes absolutely spot on with his reasoning.

Vyner should of been given a chance after Plymouth loan hes good enough and ready.

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Concerning he feels that way of course, and given his close relationship with the club I don't believe GMc has made this up. 

However, I don't understand why he thinks he would have any more influence over youngsters making it into the first team at a Premier League club. 

Maybe it is a little bit more about the money but why would he want to unsettle his family by commuting to Southampton as Carey does? 

 

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I think that we all have to face a few facts here.

1. The league we are in is the 5th biggest in Europe.

2.  We are committed to getting into the number 1 league in Europe.

3.  The ‘Pathway’ does not mean that players coming through The Academy have to play for us, it’s about them making a living in professional football. The best ones we keep and THEY may be sold, it’s a talent AND money machine.

4.  The HC is under increasing pressure to deliver, that is simply not going to change SL wants promotion and continual progression that is why he spends so much money supporting the club.

5. There is no way on this planet that we will get promoted with a squad of players that have come through the Academy - there is a very simple reason for this, the very best ones will be bought by a bigger and richer club way before that happens.

6. This is professional football it’s a business.

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If 'the pathway' were U23's to 1st XI then would Brian really have a job as loans manager in the first place? Its because we do have him in this role that the pathway of our players through loans is viewed so crucially, if it weren't we wouldn't have someone in that role.

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3 hours ago, spudski said:

Exactly...pathway to the first team doesn't mean from U23s to first team.

Most need loans to other teams in the football league to get up to speed with Men's football.

Look at Reid... Plymouth then before you know it...etc.

The higher up the Championship you get the harder it is for a youngster to become a promotion quality player.

It's ok to blood them...but if they make mistakes that lead to defeats, what do you do? 

It's a catch 22.

Put yourself in Tinman's shoes...you see the talent you have loaned out, but because they are your 'baby's ' do you start seeing things through blinkered eyes?

I'm guessing Vyner being loaned to Aberdeen may have caused a feeling of unease.

To be honest, I wonder if LJ wants to see if Vyner can make it at RB, as we've now signed Kalas.

Give hima year in the SPL and then drop Hunt perhaps?

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2 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

He dont like playing kids

I think it's true to say he doesn'ty like playing players that aren't quite up to it, mainly because it can reflect in results.

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7 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I think it's true to say he doesn'ty like playing players that aren't quite up to it, mainly because it can reflect in results.

Well playing the likes of Bailey wright  Hunt Baker etc is not stopping the goals conceeded at the moment.

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3 hours ago, chipdawg said:

We're not blocking the pathway, loads of our players are playing league football. The pathway is not necessarily to the Bristol City first team, its to professional football. In that respect, we're doing a good job

I mention Brian Tinnion in this thread.. Bristol City coaches do not agree with you. I did not make it up. When I used the following coaches are circumspect about the future = they are unhappy about how Bristol City transfers are being conducted, the pathway being blocked and the position of the academy. 

 

Edited by Cowshed

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11 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Well playing the likes of Bailey wright  Hunt Baker etc is not stopping the goals conceeded at the moment.

I understand & agree with your point but would the younger ones do any better at this stage in their careers ?. I guess we'll never know unless they are given the game time, hence why they are loaned out to get more game time. I see no easy answer but probably something most clubs have to deal with.

Edited by bpexile

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10 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I mention Brian Tinnion in this thread.. Bristol City coaches do not agree with you. I did not make it up. When I used the following coaches are circumspect about the future = they are unhappy about how Bristol City transfers are being conducted, the pathway being blocked and the position of the academy. 

 

Perhaps they need to arrange to have a 'one on one'?

Perhaps the 'plan' has evolved to a point where it needs reviewing?

I saw this when the ' blueprint' was first put in place.

The problem is...and it will always be a problem...is 'reserve' football for want of a better word, is miles off of the first team, regardless of what level.

For example...stock piling and U23s at Chelsea...how many of them were ever realistically going to make the first team?

Same for most Clubs in the Prem and top of the Championship.

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4 hours ago, chipdawg said:

We're not blocking the pathway, loads of our players are playing league football. The pathway is not necessarily to the Bristol City first team, its to professional football. In that respect, we're doing a good job

Yes and no, I would imagine signing an 18 year old for £8 million, ( I think that is the rumoured price ?) probably hasn’t gone down too well with some coaches at the academy. The remit they will be given is to produce players for ‘our’ first team, they then see a lot of youngish signings coming into the club, and the talent they are producing going out of the club on loans. It’s got to be frustrating for these coaches. 

In fact it clearly is, as there wouldn’t be a ( leaked ) press story about it otherwise!.

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46 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I understand & agree with your point but would the younger ones do any better at this stage in their careers ?. I guess we'll never know unless they are given the game time, hence why they are loaned out to get more game time. I see no easy answer but probably something most clubs have to deal with.

Yes see where your coming from but soon as they get mature enough to play first team they are sold very frustrating having such a good back line last year. Back to square one now.

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9 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Yes see where your coming from but soon as they get mature enough to play first team they are sold very frustrating having such a good back line last year. Back to square one now.

:thumbsup:

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He's no good on Football Manager anyway.

But seriously... If the manager feels the players coming through aren't good enough/ready then tough, he's going to sign better players. We're not here to just be in the business of developing kids, we are trying to push the club further up the pyramid.

If you don't like it, get the academy to produce better players.

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crazy that people suggest the academy and u teams are not a pathway to the first team. That is exactly what they are intended to be unless people are suggesting they are being ran for somebody else. It must be tremendously frustrating for Tinnion etc when they get players to a level and see them pushed back.

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There's another element to this - whether our academy resurgence is down to Tinnion's work, and whether he's been offered the freedom to work in an environment that he is comfortable with, being a modern-day Bristol City legend and all.

Could he move to a different city and work the same magic? Sure, he'd get better facilities and might get to work with a Category 1 academy, but outside of gutting Bristol City for young talent would he know the area well enough, have enough of a rapport with local parents wanting their clubs to play for the one team in Bristol, etc?

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I’m sure Brian Tinnion will sympathise with LJ , and that will mean everything , if LJ plays young players who are not ready , in the Championship , and results lose Johnson his job 

Yeah right.......

 

Easy isn’t it , when it’s not your neck on he line 

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What I find frustrating is that when players are first brought in, assuming at that point to be good enough, they are given one or two games or place on the bench and if the don't get 10/10 are dropped much too soon. That puts huge pressure on them in the first couple of games. 

If they make it to the first team they should be given a run of games to see how quickly they adjust n get up to speed with first team football. 

Morrell for instance I thought was good n showed potential but given too little game time. Now after experiencing championship football he's playing in the lower leagues and maybe losing confidence wondering if he'll ever get back to the gate. 

Surely there is always space for one youngster in the team and being given extra support from the more experienced around him. 

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9 hours ago, spudski said:

Perhaps they need to arrange to have a 'one on one'?

Perhaps the 'plan' has evolved to a point where it needs reviewing?

I saw this when the ' blueprint' was first put in place.

The problem is...and it will always be a problem...is 'reserve' football for want of a better word, is miles off of the first team, regardless of what level.

For example...stock piling and U23s at Chelsea...how many of them were ever realistically going to make the first team?

Same for most Clubs in the Prem and top of the Championship.

Has Bristol City's academy and its pathway been a success? Well it has had success and the club has profited greatly.

That success, the money has been used to buy players which can only limit opportunity for players within the pathway. Meanwhile Bristol City share facilities with colleges. This cannot be  compared with Chelsea who train in state of the art facilities, and pay kids large sums at 16, or a Southampton. The models are different. Its not he same at most clubs, models vary from club to club and so does the importance of development. 

This pathway is fundamental to the club or it is not. 

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