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5 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Obviously a brilliantly talented player but (and I may be in a minority of one here) I don’t see how his style helps us get it in the onion bag.

Play him 15 yards further forward and he’ll be able to use his strength on the ball, dribbling skills and close control to build attacks and create chances

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34 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Obviously a brilliantly talented player but (and I may be in a minority of one here) I don’t see how his style helps us get it in the onion bag.

I suspect he’s a key part of Lee’s ‘busy bee’ football philosophy.

Quick shift, pass and move from back to front. Get the ball in the opponents box before they get ‘set’ in their defensive positions. Fast and fluid football.

Love the idea. Just wonder if we have the quality in all positions of the pitch to do it. Hopefully so. If we haven’t. It’ll be a long season, as the Leeds game demonstrated. 

Makes it even more questionable the decision not to go out and get a ball playing centre half. Webster’s departure has put a big hole in our game plan. I was more worried originally about the lack of a quick fire attacker. Seems to me, a couple of games in, Webby non-replacement is going to hurt us more. 

Edited by RedRock
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2 minutes ago, TammyAB said:

Play him 15 yards further forward and he’ll be able to use his strength on the ball, dribbling skills and close control to build attacks and create chances

That’s the key isn’t it. I didn’t watch all of those Twitter highlights but of the three minutes I saw I didn’t see a pass within 50 yards of their goal

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27 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Obviously a brilliantly talented player but (and I may be in a minority of one here) I don’t see how his style helps us get it in the onion bag.

If there was one thing I took from Birmingham, it was that we got the ball into Palmer quicker than I've seen probably since Bolton (h) in the FA Cup....before defences and midfields could set themselves up.

I think that Nagy and Brownhill showed what happens if you get it to Palmer earlier...and I think that is where Massengo also comes in with that speed of ball movement.

Secondly, the earlier you get it to Palmer, the earlier you get Afobe and Weimann making clever runs orvstretching the channels to allow Palmer and Brownhill to maraud into.

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I was at the match last night. The lad was very comfortable on the ball, not phased at all when pressured by one or more QPR players and showed good vision for both space and a pass. Prepared to harass the opposition and good movement off the ball making himself available for a pass.

On the downside was not so great at tracking his man going back, seemed a bit lost on that side of the game. With coaching and the chance to get use to a new club, country etc I'm sure he will only get better at this aspect.

Ready for the fisr team, he' not far off.

if City coach him right, could have a real gem with this lad, though may take a number of matches for us to see the best of him

Great hair too

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One small thing not captured in that highlight reel is the very first few seconds of the game. From our kick off the ball is laid back to (I think) Walsh, and a QPR guy starts to close him down. Massengo calmly steps in front of him - almost a mini body check - to block the attempted tackle. Super canny. 

Love it! Imagine that being your first moment for your new team, in a new country, playing men’s football as an 18 year old. The lad’s got balls. 

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5 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

That’s the key isn’t it. I didn’t watch all of those Twitter highlights but of the three minutes I saw I didn’t see a pass within 50 yards of their goal

I could wrong but do you think it might be down to the position he was playing in perhaps?

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8 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

That’s the key isn’t it. I didn’t watch all of those Twitter highlights but of the three minutes I saw I didn’t see a pass within 50 yards of their goal

I’ve only watched them once, but there is at least one point where he plays the ball wide from the edge of the area and makes a run into the box. I was thinking that was adventurous for a defensive midfielder.

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Music to my ears!!

Having been on this forum a while you may know one of my pet hates is full-backs (but especially wide midfielders / wingers) whose starting positions early in the patterns of play are too high up the pitch.  As you say it’s easier to defend, tightens the angles for the pass, and invariably results in having to start again or clipping hopeful balls into the channels.

Yes,  similar in style

On the coaching stuff, I've done a few badges and spent the last 7 years working side by side with a lad who works for a Prem team at my grass roots club.

One of the "attacking principles" I learnt early was "width and depth". It's one of the main coaching points that Pep uses in terms of team shape too. Essentially if you can make the pitch as wide and as long as possible you move the opposition defence into more 1v1 situations and create gaps for third man runs. The most important thing is that the central players move off the ball to create passing options and move the ball forward gradually whilst the wider players make runs and movements until there is a defensive lapse. 

That's why I don't rate Brownhill as highly as other people seem to. He is a very good player on the ball, technically decent, but he hides behind defenders and doesn't show for the ball enough. It's a trait you see in lots of kids, hiding away from the ball so they don't have to take responsibility but still appearing to be busy and run around and call for the ball. It's a lack of bravery for me. 

 

 

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The one thing that excites me about watching those clips is the possibilities when matched with DaSilvas skill and vision.

The one thing Messengo has is great vision...and a couple times in those clips he passed the ball to where our forward should be, and not where he was.

Definitely need our forwards to be more proactive and on their front foot, to put themselves in a better position to receive a ball, and not the wrong side of the defender.

Can see why LJ wanted Nketiah so much now...as that's what he does well.

I can see his vision now...Webster, DaSilva, Messengo and Nketiah in the team...now that would have been something.

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9 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Obviously a brilliantly talented player but (and I may be in a minority of one here) I don’t see how his style helps us get it in the onion bag.

What a strange point of view. Not every player is directly involved with scoring goals - you need to balance it out across the team.

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15 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What a strange point of view. Not every player is directly involved with scoring goals - you need to balance it out across the team.

Also, he wins and distributes the ball. Much easier to score when you actually have the ball. Also, Bentley don’t score many 😁

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9 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Obviously a brilliantly talented player but (and I may be in a minority of one here) I don’t see how his style helps us get it in the onion bag.

Yet with Marlon you were seeing the creation of multiple chances week after week?

This kid looks a bit special, doesn't seem phased, deceivingly pretty strong, his movement, passing, vision. If he does have a flaw of tracking his man back that will have to be coached out of him, but he could be a very exciting signing for the season if he can stay fit. Nagy, Massengo, Brownhill and Palmer is a lot more exciting than what we have seen in the last 12 months. As said above on Saturday Brownhill seemed to have a point to prove, he seemed to be braver and wanted the ball more, better movement etc. Even if we finish half way and it will seem like a bit of a failure to some, we could see some very entertaining games and then build on that and really push on next season. Hopefully I am wrong and we finish a lot higher but it is hard for a pretty much new half a team of players to gel and finish in the top 6 this season.

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6 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Also, he wins and distributes the ball. Much easier to score when you actually have the ball. Also, Bentley don’t score many 😁

Exactly - you need that in order for others to create scoring opportunities

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I really hope that the rumours regarding a deal with Chelsea isn’t true...he looks a real talent and I hope he can stay with City for the foreseeable future 

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6 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I really hope that the rumours regarding a deal with Chelsea isn’t true...he looks a real talent and I hope he can stay with City for the foreseeable future 

The "rumours" are just some guy on here's random prediction - not even rumours.

Edited by Phileas Fogg

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8 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The "rumours" are just some guy on here's random prediction - not even rumours.

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

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10 hours ago, RedRock said:

Makes it even more questionable the decision not to go out and get a ball playing centre half.

We probably did try to but couldn't secure one.   Though it was easy to anticipate Webster would go, Brighton didn't commit to it until too late in the window.

For me the window should be more staggered down the leagues.

Prem.  Transfer window ends

Champ.  One week later from Prem

League 1. One week later from Champ

League 2. One week later from League 2

This would give teams lower down the hierarchy time to replace players snatched from above once the funds are guaranteed.  Also, gives time to secure loans from higher clubs once additional players are added and those squads are finalised. 

Edited by RedSkin
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8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

I imagine that people on here know people in the real world not on here, one conversation passed on and a few people down the line becomes fact. I thought that someone from the club had already denied any tie up. 

Didnt we miss out on 2 young Chelsea CB’s ? Would have thought we would have made that part of any “understanding “

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14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

 

That's how rumours work !

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25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

It's been talked about a bit online away from Otib. It's not very plausible, Steve Lansdown is far too rule abiding for something like that. If it was true, I doubt Massengo would've been the only one we signed.

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1 hour ago, J-mat said:

On the coaching stuff, I've done a few badges and spent the last 7 years working side by side with a lad who works for a Prem team at my grass roots club.

One of the "attacking principles" I learnt early was "width and depth". It's one of the main coaching points that Pep uses in terms of team shape too. Essentially if you can make the pitch as wide and as long as possible you move the opposition defence into more 1v1 situations and create gaps for third man runs. The most important thing is that the central players move off the ball to create passing options and move the ball forward gradually whilst the wider players make runs and movements until there is a defensive lapse. 

That's why I don't rate Brownhill as highly as other people seem to. He is a very good player on the ball, technically decent, but he hides behind defenders and doesn't show for the ball enough. It's a trait you see in lots of kids, hiding away from the ball so they don't have to take responsibility but still appearing to be busy and run around and call for the ball. It's a lack of bravery for me. 

 

 

He doesn't go diagonal so he can't create passing angles.

My eureka moment regarding width and depth was my simply having width and depth explained to me in geometrical and mathematical terms. Creating forty five degree angles across the pitch creates more mathematical opportunities - the receiving player if players move must have multiple passing opportunities. Players being flat in lines can't. 

 

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10 hours ago, J-mat said:

We've got a midfield three with Palmer, you're suggesting a narrow 4 or diamond, which leaves us exposed on the sides.

From the snippets I've seen I'd go with a back 4 that doesn't enclude Bailey. A midfield three of Nagy sitting with Massengo alongside Palmer giving Kasey license to make third man runs then have Elliasson (who is imo our best player) and Semenyo either side of Diedhiou, Weimman or Afobe depending on who is best at getting on the end of crosses. 

 

Nagy, Massengo and Palmer with two wingers to find and if Afobe plays a striker on the shoulder looks great going forward to me

 

Don't think Palmer is much cop defensively tbh. Nor is Eliasson, nor possibly is Semenyo though it's very early days in his case.

Given the energy of these players it can leave us exposed- 2 v 3 or more in the centre. Take Leeds for example, Phillips-Forshaw-Klich would have a field day in the centre IMO. Eliasson not so adept at wandering back inside, possible that Palmer would but again the defensive attributes at this stage...or assuming Eliasson comes back in to help cover defensively, that leaves an overload potential of 2 v 1 in that wide area- saw it in the goals on Tuesday, players having to scramble back as they started in a higher or wider position.

We could be exposed on the sides, but if the central players can funnel back in, filter back and condense the space then that makes crossing a difficult strategy for the opposition- watched the Birmingham highlights yesterday and noticed just that- can force potshots from range too, again another example of this. If both Semenyo and Eliasson pushed high and wide however

No doubt the third man runs would help us offensively- and this strategy could. Just feels a bit top heavy to me. Saw similar at QPR Tuesday?

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10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's been talked about a bit online away from Otib. It's not very plausible, Steve Lansdown is far too rule abiding for something like that. If it was true, I doubt Massengo would've been the only one we signed.

It doesn't require anything official though. A heavy hint from Chelsea during other discussions that if they had been able to sign Massengo they would have been happy to loan him to us to get ENglish league experience,  but as they can't maybe we should try directly. This could be coupled with another heavy hint to the players agent as to what was in the air and then to the club itself regarding sell on fees etc?

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39 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

Nah that’s bollocks.

Cant see anything on the official site.

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3 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

It doesn't require anything official though. A heavy hint from Chelsea during other discussions that if they had been able to sign Massengo they would have been happy to loan him to us to get ENglish league experience,  but as they can't maybe we should try directly. This could be coupled with another heavy hint to the players agent as to what was in the air and then to the club itself regarding sell on fees etc?

I haven't seen these hints, can you provide links?

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3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I haven't seen these hints, can you provide links?

I mean verbal, I am not suggesting anything has been done, just a way to get around the rules.

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2 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I mean verbal, I am not suggesting anything has been done, just a way to get around the rules.

Oh right ok, well yeah possibly. I just think a club headed by Steve Lansdown wouldn't take a huge risk like that. Seems incredibly far-fetched to me but everyone loves a conspiracy. 

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Oh right ok, well yeah possibly. I just think a club headed by Steve Lansdown wouldn't take a huge risk like that. Seems incredibly far-fetched to me but everyone loves a conspiracy. 

There is no way we would have bought a player "for" Chelsea. We may well have some sort of verbal agreement with them regarding the future between both clubs and players though (I expect many do). If this Massengo has a blinder here and clubs come in for him, it would be funny if he went to Chelsea just to get conspiracy theories really talking! One bloke made it up on here - and it could even end up making it into the papers (as they are that desperate).

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

Who has probably heard it 10th or 11th hand from something started on here. It's surprising how quickly something is picked up upon, and then becomes fact pretty quickly. 

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7 minutes ago, wood_red said:

 and it could even end up making it into the papers (as they are that desperate).

Anything is possible. When I lived in Australia I spent a number of years in Katherine in the Northern Territory. Whilst there I was a member of the local Apex Club (similar to Round Table etc) where I was in charge of producing the fortnightly Dinner Notice to members which was basically a newsletter advising dinner dates, club news and events. In order to bulk out the publication I used to put in various articles for a bit of a laugh. In one I wrote that "due to the severe drought being experienced the Katherine Town Council has advised that lanes 9 & 10 of the public swimming pool would be closed until further notice".  About a week later a mate called and suggested that I go and buy a copy of The Sydney Morning Herald. Sure enough on page 5 was the exact same story !!

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48 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's been talked about a bit online away from Otib. It's not very plausible, Steve Lansdown is far too rule abiding for something like that. If it was true, I doubt Massengo would've been the only one we signed.

SL may well not been aware of any ‘understanding’ between City and Chelsea.....

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8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

SL may well not been aware of any ‘understanding’ between City and Chelsea.....

You've been listening to too much unsubstantiated, rumoured conspiracy theory bull that isn't on the official site - worst thing is you seem to actually believe it. I am sure MA and LJ would happily just go behind SL back and setup some shady deal that could come back to really hurt the club!!!

Anyone suggests a rumour of any other player being rumoured with a move here, and you shoot them down in an instant!

You really couldn't make it up........

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3 minutes ago, wood_red said:

You've been listening to too much unsubstantiated, rumoured conspiracy theory bull that isn't on the official site - worst thing is you seem to actually believe it. I am sure MA and LJ would happily just go behind SL back and setup some shady deal that could come back to really hurt the club!!!

Anyone suggests a rumour of any other player being rumoured with a move here, and you shoot them down in an instant!

You really couldn't make it up........

It’s a conspiracy theory and like most conspiracy theories it has some elements that are completely feasible. 

I’m not saying that it true or untrue but we as fans are never going know one way of or the other.

LJ is the speaker at Senior Reds later today, I might well ask him.........:cool2:

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10 minutes ago, wood_red said:

You've been listening to too much unsubstantiated, rumoured conspiracy theory bull that isn't on the official site - worst thing is you seem to actually believe it. I am sure MA and LJ would happily just go behind SL back and setup some shady deal that could come back to really hurt the club!!!

Anyone suggests a rumour of any other player being rumoured with a move here, and you shoot them down in an instant!

You really couldn't make it up........

My point was that lots of things get said in unofficial conversations that can lead to additional possibilities. Didn't LJ tell Korey Smith to come here when he was leaving Oldham? Did he have a feeling that he would become his manager again or were there whispers of the possibility even then? 

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I was prepared to think that the Chelsea theory had some credibility when we were told that the price was £8 million, for a virtually unknown...we just don't do that sort of thing. Now we've heard that the price is closer to £2.5 million with add ons, it seems much more likely that we have invested some of our spare money, which we can easily afford, in an extremely promising talent. This is in line with the clubs policy to buy low and sell high and I applaud our scouting staff.

Edited by Desso
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33 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s a conspiracy theory and like most conspiracy theories it has some elements that are completely feasible. 

 

'It’s a rumour and like most rumours it has some elements that are completely feasible.'

Right......so maybe you'll leave the transfer forum and its topic alone now eh?

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't think Palmer is much cop defensively tbh. Nor is Eliasson, nor possibly is Semenyo though it's very early days in his case.

Given the energy of these players it can leave us exposed- 2 v 3 or more in the centre. Take Leeds for example, Phillips-Forshaw-Klich would have a field day in the centre IMO. Eliasson not so adept at wandering back inside, possible that Palmer would but again the defensive attributes at this stage...or assuming Eliasson comes back in to help cover defensively, that leaves an overload potential of 2 v 1 in that wide area- saw it in the goals on Tuesday, players having to scramble back as they started in a higher or wider position.

We could be exposed on the sides, but if the central players can funnel back in, filter back and condense the space then that makes crossing a difficult strategy for the opposition- watched the Birmingham highlights yesterday and noticed just that- can force potshots from range too, again another example of this. If both Semenyo and Eliasson pushed high and wide however

No doubt the third man runs would help us offensively- and this strategy could. Just feels a bit top heavy to me. Saw similar at QPR Tuesday?

From what I've read of Pereira, he is a superior defender to Hunt, which will help us play a 4. Much as I was a huge fan of Pack, Nagy appears to be a superior player in the defensive phase, which again facilitates a back 4 by offering protection and providing Palmer and whoever partners him can get into defensive positions quickly, their ability to actually defend isn't really relevant. Their job is block passing options for the opposition. Wingers job is to track opposition full backs and CF is to put a bit of pressure on the pivot player of the opposition if they play with one.

 

As I say, playing with no width at all is madness to me, especially as I consider Eliasson to be our best attacking player.

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55 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s a conspiracy theory and like most conspiracy theories it has some elements that are completely feasible. 

I’m not saying that it true or untrue but we as fans are never going know one way of or the other.

LJ is the speaker at Senior Reds later today, I might well ask him.........:cool2:

I expect you to ask him now you've said that! 

Let us know what he says

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57 minutes ago, Robbored said:

LJ is the speaker at Senior Reds later today, I might well ask him.........:cool2:

Getting  your arse kicked at AG by Johnson’s Snr and Jnr would be a unique record. 

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't think Palmer is much cop defensively tbh. Nor is Eliasson, nor possibly is Semenyo though it's very early days in his case.

Given the energy of these players it can leave us exposed- 2 v 3 or more in the centre. Take Leeds for example, Phillips-Forshaw-Klich would have a field day in the centre IMO. Eliasson not so adept at wandering back inside, possible that Palmer would but again the defensive attributes at this stage...or assuming Eliasson comes back in to help cover defensively, that leaves an overload potential of 2 v 1 in that wide area- saw it in the goals on Tuesday, players having to scramble back as they started in a higher or wider position.

We could be exposed on the sides, but if the central players can funnel back in, filter back and condense the space then that makes crossing a difficult strategy for the opposition- watched the Birmingham highlights yesterday and noticed just that- can force potshots from range too, again another example of this. If both Semenyo and Eliasson pushed high and wide however

No doubt the third man runs would help us offensively- and this strategy could. Just feels a bit top heavy to me. Saw similar at QPR Tuesday?

But Klich isn't much cop defensively either. That's how it works with a 3 man midfield, different players bring different things. I'm not saying Leeds trio isn't better than ours, but you need balance your midfield. Palmer, Nagy, Massengo seems like a balanced midfield to me, perhaps play Brownhill for Palmer if you need more tackling, though Palmer has been noticeably more physical in my opinion

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17 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

Palmer, Nagy, Massengo seems like a balanced midfield

I think this midfield has great potential. Nagy plays the deeper role, Massengo pushes 10 yards further forward than he did on Tuesday and Palmer sits at AMC. stick Eliasson and Semenyo on as wide attackers and then run Afobe or Fam through the centre.

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35 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

But Klich isn't much cop defensively either. That's how it works with a 3 man midfield, different players bring different things. I'm not saying Leeds trio isn't better than ours, but you need balance your midfield. Palmer, Nagy, Massengo seems like a balanced midfield to me, perhaps play Brownhill for Palmer if you need more tackling, though Palmer has been noticeably more physical in my opinion

The posters point maybe (?) not necessarily about tackling it can be about defensive balance and filling zones blocking options. Palmer unbalances shape, its a easy criticism of this player to make because he does it so frequently.  Leeds were better there. Leeds played easily through where Palmer wasn't.

 

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6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The posters point maybe (?) not necessarily about tackling it can be about defensive balance and filling zones blocking options. Palmer unbalances shape, its a easy criticism of this player to make because he does it so frequently.  Leeds were better there. Leeds played easily through where Palmer wasn't.

 

But something Johnson praised him for against Birmingham, so perhaps he is learning?

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1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

But something Johnson praised him for against Birmingham, so perhaps he is learning?

Perhaps he will find some legs each game. If he does not and is included in the team with Famara who also does not display an aptitude for the defensive 50% element of football the team cannot defend collectively, team mates will have to go beyond perhaps, they will have to do the running. 

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1 hour ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Getting  your arse kicked at AG by Johnson’s Snr and Jnr would be a unique record. 

Fortunately LJ is an entirely different character to his father.

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not necessarily some guy on here - I heard the same conspiracy theory from a City fan who is not aware of otib at a bowls match recently.

Well knowing, as I do, the standard of banter and authentic in-depth anaylsis, let alone the networking at Bowls matches.........finally we have conclusive proof of the "Chelsea Connection" 🤑

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