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Yet again Celtic show how poor the Scottish league is


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1 minute ago, Pound Lane Red said:

Take a while to earn a similar amount of money in Europa compared to qualification for the CL groups stages. No they wont be better off in the EL. 

I meant on the pitch they will face weaker opposition and have a chance of going a lot further.

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1 minute ago, Super said:

I meant on the pitch they will face weaker opposition and have a chance of going a lot further.

On merit, it's not right that 3rd and 4th place sides from several Leagues qualify automatically while Champions have to go through several rounds.

Ajax last year showed what could be possible- most don't have an academy like them though, tbh.

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3 minutes ago, Super said:

I meant on the pitch they will face weaker opposition and have a chance of going a lot further.

They still have to beat AIK or Sherrif Tiraspol to get into the Europa League group stage.  Which, especially looking at their recent European history, is no guarantee.

£14million guaranteed in the Champions League group stage v £2.5million in the Europa League.

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2 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Scottish clubs record in Europe is poor but I wonder what the record of English clubs would be if they had to navigate the early rounds instead of getting a free bye into the group stages. Let's see if last year's UCL final can be followed up, because since the inception of the PL English clubs record in Europe has been piss poor compared to what it was prior to the PL (11 European trophies Post PL, 22 European trophies in the equivalent period immediately prior to the PL) 

61 available European trophies since the start of the premier league (counting the 3 main trophies, but not counting e.g. the European super cup). 

The 11 Premier League wins that you mention is more than twice as many as Germany (5) and only one fewer than Italy (12, most of which were in the 90s). I wouldn’t say that’s piss poor...but each to their own. If you’re comparing to Spain, then maybe, but they’re miles out in front of everyone else on 22. 

Does your ‘22 English club wins in the comparable period before the premier league’ count the same number of finals, i.e. 61? The discontinuation of the Cup Winners’ Cup in 1999 makes it a slightly unfair comparison if it’s just based on the number of years, as there were 3 trophies to play for every season until 1999, but only 2 per season in the 20 years since. 

EDIT: if you’ve counted 27 years back from 1992, the 20 years without the CWC since 1999 are mostly offset by the 16 European trophies that English clubs couldn’t compete for between 1986 and 1991 due to the post Heysel ban, so it probably is a broadly fair comparison. Also just re-read your post and in fairness you did say it was in comparison to the performance pre premier league.

Either way, yes, English clubs were more dominant before the inception of the premier league, and Spanish clubs have shown a similar level of dominance since. 

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2 hours ago, phantom said:

Fair point but one thing nobody can disagree with is Celtic are useless in European football !

Compared to top teams yes but I have to admit I would love city to be as shit as Celtic are in Europe ?

I'm giving up defending them now, I can't stand them as a club anyway 

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Without researching it I say, Aston Villa x1, Liverpool x 5, Man Utd x 3 Aston Villa, Forest x 2, Chelsea x 1

Several other English clubs have reached the semifinals.

No-one can say that about Scottish clubs.

Without wishing to sound like i am defending the Scottish domestic game you have to be fair to them in regards to there population.. What other countrys with a population of just over 5 million people have a hugely strong and ultra competitive domestic football scene in Europe... ? None would be your answer..

As much as I despise Celtic in particular they probably in terms of fanbase size have a shout at being in the top 10 well supported clubs in Europe which isn’t bad going coming from such a small nation.

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1 hour ago, North London Red said:

61 available European trophies since the start of the premier league (counting the 3 main trophies, but not counting e.g. the European super cup). 

The 11 Premier League wins that you mention is more than twice as many as Germany (5) and only one fewer than Italy (12, most of which were in the 90s). I wouldn’t say that’s piss poor...but each to their own. If you’re comparing to Spain, then maybe, but they’re miles out in front of everyone else on 22. 

Does your ‘22 English club wins in the comparable period before the premier league’ count the same number of finals, i.e. 61? The discontinuation of the Cup Winners’ Cup in 1999 makes it a slightly unfair comparison if it’s just based on the number of years, as there were 3 trophies to play for every season until 1999, but only 2 per season in the 20 years since. 

EDIT: if you’ve counted 27 years back from 1992, the 20 years without the CWC since 1999 are mostly offset by the 16 European trophies that English clubs couldn’t compete for between 1986 and 1991 due to the post Heysel ban, so it probably is a broadly fair comparison. Also just re-read your post and in fairness you did say it was in comparison to the performance pre premier league.

Either way, yes, English clubs were more dominant before the inception of the premier league, and Spanish clubs have shown a similar level of dominance since. 

You fail to recognise its so much easier to qualify for Europe than it was prior to the PL. We only had one representative in the European Cup (but still won it 8 times) and only one in the Cup Winners Cup. If I remember rightly it was 5 in the Fairs/UEFA Cup. We now have 4 in the corrupt draw Champions League and another 4 in the even more appalling Europa League. We of course wouldn't have won last year's  Champions League under the old qualification rules for Europe's premier Cup competition as you had to be league champions of your country and not champions of sod all. 

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4 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

You fail to recognise its so much easier to qualify for Europe than it was prior to the PL. We only had one representative in the European Cup (but still won it 8 times) and only one in the Cup Winners Cup. If I remember rightly it was 5 in the Fairs/UEFA Cup. We now have 4 in the corrupt draw Champions League and another 4 in the even more appalling Europa League. We of course wouldn't have won last year's  Champions League under the old qualification rules for Europe's premier Cup competition as you had to be league champions of your country and not champions of sod all. 

Excellent post.

Spot on. Used to be Champions only- Ajax who made the semis last year have to go through 2 qualifying rounds e.g. Champions from a decent footballing nation in Holland- how can that be right? I'd say no more than 2 maximum per country tbh, straight knockouts seemed pretty fun also.

Think the old format was European Cup, UEFA Cup and Cup Winners Cup- competitive balance seemed a lot better but then there was a lot less cash in the game too and still minnows even then.

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5 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I hadn't heard of what had happened to Steua before your post.

Shafted by legal proceedings and the parent organisation, now playing under a different name in the 4th tier and on a former training pitch.

For a club who were once champions of Europe, that's astounding.

yes..now there is a FCSB team in the first league, the owner lost the honours until 2003. All duo to some money not paid to the Minister... shocking country that I live in. Even so, FCSB cant the brand Steaua. Some owners destroy teams, like Blackpool owner. Steaua was a great team at some points with players that you don't see now at Barcelona...  

 

Buuuuut I have my Bristol City love and I'm still a fan, all of my supporter feelings are with City now.

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1 hour ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

You fail to recognise its so much easier to qualify for Europe than it was prior to the PL. We only had one representative in the European Cup (but still won it 8 times) and only one in the Cup Winners Cup. If I remember rightly it was 5 in the Fairs/UEFA Cup. We now have 4 in the corrupt draw Champions League and another 4 in the even more appalling Europa League. We of course wouldn't have won last year's  Champions League under the old qualification rules for Europe's premier Cup competition as you had to be league champions of your country and not champions of sod all. 

Yes, it’s easier for English top flight clubs to qualify for Europe now than it used to be, but the same is true for Spanish, Italian and German clubs too. (And those four leagues were the main four in terms of trophies both before and after the expansion of the Champions League).

Before the Champions League was extended, we may only have had one representative, but it was often possible to reach a semi final or final with a relatively kind run, depending on how favourable the draw was (and especially if the champions of two of the other stronger leagues drew each other in an early round). These days to win it you probably have to beat at least two or more of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Atlético Madrid or Juventus (plus another decent team from your own league) - so it may be easier to qualify these days, but once you’re in it I’d argue it’s harder to win now than it was pre expansion. 

As for the premier league not winning it last year if the old rules had applied (ie only national champions plus the defending winners from the previous season)...Manchester City would have stood a pretty good chance in my humble view. Impossible to say. 

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2 hours ago, bris red said:

Without wishing to sound like i am defending the Scottish domestic game you have to be fair to them in regards to there population.. What other countrys with a population of just over 5 million people have a hugely strong and ultra competitive domestic football scene in Europe... ? None would be your answer..

As much as I despise Celtic in particular they probably in terms of fanbase size have a shout at being in the top 10 well supported clubs in Europe which isn’t bad going coming from such a small nation.

Cyprus has a population of less than a million but their league is ranked 4 places better than Scotland in the UEFA coefficient.

 

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Celtic's support, however, is phenomenal.  If they were playing in Bristol they would somehow takeover the ground ... And when they won that cup in 67 the whole team were born within 20 miles of Parkhead.  The Scottish league is only relatively poor because of a complete lack of Sky funding.  If Celtic were allowed to join the Premiership - as the Welsh Clubs are - they would be top 6 every season .... as would Rangers.  

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In terms of impartiality it's worth highlighting there was a period in the early 90's when Rangers were ( more than once) eliminated in the preliminaries by Athens which led to the old joke:

"What's AEK stand for?"

"Another Early Knockout....."

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20 minutes ago, swampy said:

The Scottish league is only relatively poor because of a complete lack of Sky funding.  

Strange then that Sky will pay around £12m this season for just under half of the live rights ( BT have the other 'live' share with BBC picking up a 'delayed game' rights on Saturday evenings,) and that from next season Sky will fork out upward of £32m for exclusive 'live', domestic coverage.

For sure it's not a patch on Premier revenues, but it's still one hell of a sum for parks league fodder.......

Bear in mind most goes Celtic's way as they're always on and accounts for why their income is three times that of Rangers.

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1 hour ago, swampy said:

Celtic's support, however, is phenomenal.  If they were playing in Bristol they would somehow takeover the ground ... And when they won that cup in 67 the whole team were born within 20 miles of Parkhead.  The Scottish league is only relatively poor because of a complete lack of Sky funding.  If Celtic were allowed to join the Premiership - as the Welsh Clubs are - they would be top 6 every season .... as would Rangers.  

certain welsh clubs are allowed in the English league because when the were formed the was no welsh league for them to join! 

Few years back when Cardiff nearly went pop there was talk of starting a newco Afc Cardiff City ( or something like that) bit they scrapped that idea as soon as they realised they wouldn’t be allowed in the English League and new (Malaysian) money was found to save them! 

Celtic and Rangers will and should never play in the English league!

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9 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

European record!!! Aren’t they one of a few British clubs to have won the European Cup. 

 

I believe Celtic hold this remarkable record........ 14 members of their 15 man squad who won the European Cup in 1967 were born in or within 10 miles of Glasgow.  No other club has ever come close to that, and they were truly a Glasgow team?    Shame that their so poor  these days?   But cannot ever see a `Champions league winner ever coming near to that achievement..........it just couldn't ever happen, with the way sides are set up these days. ............. Sorry Swampy had not seen your post? ( Your'e nearly right!}

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2 hours ago, maxjak said:

I believe Celtic hold this remarkable record........ 14 members of their 15 man squad who won the European Cup in 1967 were born in or within 10 miles of Glasgow.  No other club has ever come close to that, and they were truly a Glasgow team?    Shame that their so poor  these days?   But cannot ever see a `Champions league winner ever coming near to that achievement..........it just couldn't ever happen, with the way sides are set up these days. ............. Sorry Swampy had not seen your post? ( Your'e nearly right!}

Last team to start a European Cup final with 11 players of the same nationality were Steaua Bucharest in 1989. 

Steaua also won it in 1986 with an all Romanian starting 11 and 2 Romanian subs. Not sure how many of those 13 players were born in or close to Bucharest, but it’s still a remarkable achievement. 

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11 hours ago, North London Red said:

Last team to start a European Cup final with 11 players of the same nationality were Steaua Bucharest in 1989. 

Steaua also won it in 1986 with an all Romanian starting 11 and 2 Romanian subs. Not sure how many of those 13 players were born in or close to Bucharest, but it’s still a remarkable achievement. 

Yep.......and poor old Steaua are now in the 4th Divison.......but your right, those events were  an exceptional time in the clubs history

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17 hours ago, swampy said:

Celtic's support, however, is phenomenal.  If they were playing in Bristol they would somehow takeover the ground ... And when they won that cup in 67 the whole team were born within 20 miles of Parkhead.  The Scottish league is only relatively poor because of a complete lack of Sky funding.  If Celtic were allowed to join the Premiership - as the Welsh Clubs are - they would be top 6 every season .... as would Rangers.  

Newport Cardiff Swansea Wrexham have a dispensation to be in the English leagues as they have what are popularly known as grandfather rights. There was no professional league in Wales as such England was their only option. Other Welsh clubs have no such dispensation 

Scotland has Berwick Rangers that is in fact in England however a similar dispensation exists. 

These types of things are not as uncommon as you might think around Europe. 

As for Celtic/Rangers/Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen etc. The Scottish FA is as old as The FA to all intents and purposes. There were some dispensation for some Scottish clubs to play in the English FA Cup originally but there League was competitive with the English League up until the 80s. Celtic Rangers Aberdeen have all won major European trophy’s, however now its pretty poor. 

Scotland is a small country with a population of If I remember correctly about 6m and as such does not have the domestic audience to justify huge tv revenues. 

Scottish football has two directions, stay as it is or join some kind of European conglomerate of minor leagues that might compete with Germany/Italy/England/Spain/France. 

Due to the home nations having their own leagues and FAs they can compete as England Scotland NI Wales allowing anything more than traditional grandfather status could open the door for a vote to force a UK team. Furthermore the thought of the political and racial bigotry that follows both Glasgow and Edinburgh clubs into England every Saturday fills me with dread. 

As for your assertion as to where they would finish every season who knows. And luckily we probably will never have to care. 

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On 14/08/2019 at 20:42, swampy said:

Celtic's support, however, is phenomenal.  If they were playing in Bristol they would somehow takeover the ground ... And when they won that cup in 67 the whole team were born within 20 miles of Parkhead.  The Scottish league is only relatively poor because of a complete lack of Sky funding.  If Celtic were allowed to join the Premiership - as the Welsh Clubs are - they would be top 6 every season .... as would Rangers.  

Hope that never ever happens **** them and Rangers the taffs are an historic anomaly, no need to compound that error by letting those pricks cream off Sky money and deny two English clubs the chnace of Prem football.

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On 14/08/2019 at 20:42, swampy said:

Celtic's support, however, is phenomenal.  If they were playing in Bristol they would somehow takeover the ground ... And when they won that cup in 67 the whole team were born within 20 miles of Parkhead.  The Scottish league is only relatively poor because of a complete lack of Sky funding.  If Celtic were allowed to join the Premiership - as the Welsh Clubs are - they would be top 6 every season .... as would Rangers.  

Couldn’t think of anything worse, the whole of AG would need disinfecting.

Neither of them would come anywhere close to finishing top 6. They’d be bottom half for sure.

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