Wolves - Safe Standing

[SedRA]

Apologies if this has been posted somewhere already but couldn’t find anything...

I noticed on MOTD that Wolves have safe standing rails installed in the end behind one of the goals. Apparently done for the safety of  the fans that stand regardless of the rules against it. Didn’t realise that could be done as it seems like you’re essentially endorsing standing. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/48273750

Would be great to get in the south stand, or in the Atyeo and move the away fans to the top tier of Lansdown at the Atyeo end. 

 

[James54De]

Pretty sure only one of the many types of safe standing seats are legal. The seat has the be spring up like the normal ones, and not the lock up ones like the ones we briefly fitted. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

The installation of these at Wolves and indeed at Tottenham is on paper, future proofing.

They're still expected to uphold (or try to!) the all seater requirement. Whether the actually happens or is successful in practice is a different issue...

28 minutes ago, RedSA said:

Would be great to get in the south stand, or in the Atyeo and move the away fans to the top tier of Lansdown at the Atyeo end. 

 

One potential issue with this is the fact that PL regs state 3,000 away tickets or if ground holds under 30,000, 10%- would it fit with this?

Another rule, though dunno how strictly it's upheld, is that a % of away seats have to be pitchside.

Unconvinced the 2nd one always upheld but these are issues we need to factor in when considering away allocations and locations, planning ahead etc.

[joshthomson]

43 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The installation of these at Wolves and indeed at Tottenham is on paper, future proofing.

They're still expected to uphold (or try to!) the all seater requirement. Whether the actually happens or is successful in practice is a different issue...

One potential issue with this is the fact that PL regs state 3,000 away tickets or if ground holds under 30,000, 10%- would it fit with this?

Another rule, though dunno how strictly it's upheld, is that a % of away seats have to be pitchside.

Unconvinced the 2nd one always upheld but these are issues we need to factor in when considering away allocations and locations, planning ahead etc.

Sorry but not true. Look at Newcastle?? Up in the gods?? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, joshthomson said:

Sorry but not true. Look at Newcastle?? Up in the gods?? 

An exception to the rule.

SAG advice overrules this of course.

Newcastle claim there would be safety issues and SAG don't disagree- seems a pretty flimsy excuse but that obviously takes precedent.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

An exception to the rule.

SAG advice overrules this of course.

Newcastle claim there would be safety issues and SAG don't disagree- seems a pretty flimsy excuse but that obviously takes precedent.

Was going to say this, Anfield as well, Chelsea, Man City, Southampton, Brighton all behind the goal. 

Its obviously a weak rule whereby if SAG agree it’s not safe to house away fans on the side then it can be ignored 

[Blagdon red]

10 hours ago, James54De said:

Pretty sure only one of the many types of safe standing seats are legal. The seat has the be spring up like the normal ones, and not the lock up ones like the ones we briefly fitted. 

Yes, as @Mr Popodopolous says, self-tipping rail seats (for example, like those shown here) are now allowed in all grounds, including those covered by the all-seater policy.

In fact, it is now an official recommendation that clubs consider installing such seats as an added safety measure in areas where fans habitually stand.

That is what both Wolves (based on past experience) and Spurs (based on expectation) have done.

Other safety-conscious clubs are bound to follow suit ... and be encouraged to do so by their SAGs.

 

[nickolas]

These would work. 

However, this will play havoc with the no standing at the back of the Dolman and South Stand rule!!!

[Blagdon red]

11 minutes ago, nickolas said:

These would work. 

However, this will play havoc with the no standing at the back of the Dolman and South Stand rule!!!

I believe that the SAG are particularly anxious at about standing at the back of the Dolman due to the steep gradient of that stand. Shallower gradients, as in the Section 82 area, give safety people fewer concerns, which is why you often see clubs informally allowed to take a more tolerant approach to standing in such areas.

Add rails along every row and the last remaining concerns of even the most cautious stadium safety inspector must then surely be allayed.

[Phileas Fogg]

10 hours ago, RedSA said:

Apologies if this has been posted somewhere already but couldn’t find anything...

I noticed on MOTD that Wolves have safe standing rails installed in the end behind one of the goals. Apparently done for the safety of  the fans that stand regardless of the rules against it. Didn’t realise that could be done as it seems like you’re essentially endorsing standing. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/48273750

Would be great to get in the south stand, or in the Atyeo and move the away fans to the top tier of Lansdown at the Atyeo end. 

 

I've always liked the idea of away supporters not being behind the goal.

In an ideal world, the away supporters would be in a corner beside the Atyeo that's used as a real 'home end'. It would allow interaction between the vocal fans in that home end and the away support (something that's lost at the moment given the distance between S82 and the away fans) and wouldn't have the negative impact of away fans being behind the goal.

I think, sadly, it might be too late to implement this logistically - but would be the best solution for atmosphere at the ground. I would then look the fit the Atyeo, whether redeveloped or not, with safe standing. 

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I've always liked the idea of away supporters not being behind the goal.

In an ideal world, the away supporters would be in a corner beside the Atyeo that's used as a real 'home end'. It would allow interaction between the vocal fans in that home end and the away support (something that's lost at the moment given the distance between S82 and the away fans) and wouldn't have the negative impact of away fans being behind the goal.

I think, sadly, it might be too late to implement this logistically - but would be the best solution for atmosphere at the ground. I would then look the fit the Atyeo, whether redeveloped or not, with safe standing. 

Not really a need to rehouse the away fans. If safe standing was decided on then the Atyeo could be fitted with it, split it in half - Half home & half away support. 

I just don’t expect it to happen before it’s common place throughout the league, because there’s no real need to change what’s happening now, from the clubs perspective. 

[Blagdon red]

4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Not really a need to rehouse the away fans. If safe standing was decided on then the Atyeo could be fitted with it, split it in half - Half home & half away support. 

I just don’t expect it to happen before it’s common place throughout the league, because there’s no real need to change what’s happening now, from the clubs perspective. 

Except perhaps to protect themselves from any legal liability in the event of an injury being sustained in an area where standing is openly tolerated and a club has failed to take the added safety measures that they are now allowed to take and are being advised to consider.

Not to mention, simply doing what might now be called best practice in terms of providing fans with the highest possible level of safety.

[Bar BS3]

1 minute ago, Blagdon red said:

Except perhaps to protect themselves from any legal liability in the event of an injury being sustained in an area where standing is openly tolerated and a club has failed to take the added safety measures that they are now allowed to take and are being advised to consider.

Not to mention, simply doing what might now be called best practice in terms of providing fans with the highest possible level of safety.

Yes, if it’s now allowed to be installed and used, then it’s probably best to install in in that area. 

Seems odd, if it’s now legal to use, that any areas giving ok to be lenient on standing, it’s not part of the conditions for that to be installed. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

I believe that the SAG are particularly anxious at about standing at the back of the Dolman due to the steep gradient of that stand. Shallower gradients, as in the Section 82 area, give safety people fewer concerns, which is why you often see clubs informally allowed to take a more tolerant approach to standing in such areas.

Add rails along every row and the last remaining concerns of even the most cautious stadium safety inspector must then surely be allayed.

Why when a concert is on people can stand and dance if they want, in probably worse visibility than a game of football in the afternoon or an evening kick off with lights on?

[Blagdon red]

8 minutes ago, wood_red said:

Why when a concert is on people can stand and dance if they want, in probably worse visibility than a game of football in the afternoon or an evening kick off with lights on?

That's one for the politicians! Part of the non-sensical laws that demonise football supporters.

When the stadium is being used for a concert or a rugby match for that matter it is no longer an 'all-seater' stadium from a legislative point of view! Standing can thus be allowed, even in areas of the stadium considered especially unsafe when it is being used for football.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

Was going to say this, Anfield as well, Chelsea, Man City, Southampton, Brighton all behind the goal. 

Its obviously a weak rule whereby if SAG agree it’s not safe to house away fans on the side then it can be ignored 

Fairly sure the specifics of the regulation basically say minimum of ONE block that is pitchside, but local authority objections can and will override.

So far as I can see, the only club who are exempt in the PL is Newcastle- maybe that plenty are sticking to the minimum but the only ones officially exempt are Newcastle.

Needs to be a SAG led decision though, not a club led one.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Here's the thing though.

The safe standing areas were installed at the grounds in question.

Yet the clubs are being quite firm on persistent standing. (At least in their public statements). Obviously they have to be.

You're the expert @Blagdon red how do we think it'll play out at new Tottenham ground and Wolves grounds.

The statements lip service or will local authorities etc be heavily scrutinising them for signs of words being backed up by action?

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

Not really a need to rehouse the away fans.

In your opinion

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

If safe standing was decided on then the Atyeo could be fitted with it, split it in half - Half home & half away support. 

That’s an interesting idea actually, quite like that.

 

[Bar BS3]

17 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

In your opinion

That’s an interesting idea actually, quite like that.

 

Yes, only in my opinion. Although the logistics of splitting any of the other stands is highly unlikely. 

The Atyeo is the only stand that it’s really practical for and would save needing to leave a large part of it (1.5-2k seats) empty. 

[Blagdon red]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Here's the thing though.

The safe standing areas were installed at the grounds in question.

Yet the clubs are being quite firm on persistent standing. (At least in their public statements). Obviously they have to be.

You're the expert @Blagdon red how do we think it'll play out at new Tottenham ground and Wolves grounds.

The statements lip service or will local authorities etc be heavily scrutinising them for signs of words being backed up by action?

From the MOTD highlights last night, it was clear that all fans in the rail seat areas at Spurs and Wolves were standing. No rules on this have changed this season, so the stadium management teams will be managing these areas in the same pragmatic way that they have in the past, i.e. ensuring no overcrowding or spilling out into the aisles, but refraining from any heavy-handed attempts to make fans sit down.

[Redwhitepurple]

Rip out the entire bottom half of dolamn stand seating and that is were standing should be

[Barkhamred]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Here's the thing though.

The safe standing areas were installed at the grounds in question.

Yet the clubs are being quite firm on persistent standing. (At least in their public statements). Obviously they have to be.

You're the expert @Blagdon red how do we think it'll play out at new Tottenham ground and Wolves grounds.

The statements lip service or will local authorities etc be heavily scrutinising them for signs of words being backed up by action?

Isn’t this one of those cases where it’s best not to ask the question but to watch what happens.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

From the MOTD highlights last night, it was clear that all fans in the rail seat areas at Spurs and Wolves were standing. No rules on this have changed this season, so the stadium management teams will be managing these areas in the same pragmatic way that they have in the past, i.e. ensuring no overcrowding or spilling out into the aisles, but refraining from any heavy-handed attempts to make fans sit down.

Thanks. I'll watch it back- sounds like a bit of a wink and a nudge job. Presumably the trade off is that no standing whatsoever tolerated in other stands.

16 minutes ago, Barkhamred said:

Isn’t this one of those cases where it’s best not to ask the question but to watch what happens.

Agreed, you're right.

2 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Rip out the entire bottom half of dolamn stand seating and that is were standing should be

I think Safe Standing at AG won't go further than where it is now personally, certainly not for the foreseeable.

[Guest]

The whole home end at Norwich against Chelsea were all standing as well yesterday.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I watched some of it and I wasn't so sure- I remember for a minute there was standing for a minutes applause as we've seen at AG before, but was hard to tell.

They're another club incidentally who have had warnings by local authority, threats of capacity reduction/relocation etc.

[Blagdon red]

49 minutes ago, wood_red said:

The whole home end at Norwich against Chelsea were all standing as well yesterday.

The Lower Barclay at Norwich always all stand. The SAG got concerned a couple of years back about kids standing on seats in order to see. Consequently the club relocated a few family groups to another part of the ground. I believe that the SAG is now relatively relaxed about the situation there but would welcome the installation of rail seating to add that extra level of safety.

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

The Lower Barclay at Norwich always all stand. The SAG got concerned a couple of years back about kids standing on seats in order to see. Consequently the club relocated a few family groups to another part of the ground. I believe that the SAG is now relatively relaxed about the situation there but would welcome the installation of rail seating to add that extra level of safety.

Here's what I don't get then.

Lower Barclay- how many might that be, 2,500-3,000 all stand?

Leeds- whenever I see them on TV (too often!), at Elland Road a fair chunk of their fans seem to be standing.

South Bank at Wolves appears to have had safe standing put in so I assume a fair bit of that stand do so persistently.

Yet at AG, we have 1,000-1,500 in the s82/singing Section...and that's your lot!  I can't believe they are the only people in the ground who would like a relaxed approach to standing etc. (You can still workaround to sing sat down but it's tricky and less natural).

At Plymouth, top 2 rows of a stand shut and possible relocation/suspension of season tickets pending meetings or similar.

The numbers and proportion are out of kilter at AG therefore to the above examples. It appears that there isn't a great deal of consistency at national level.

[Blagdon red]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Here's what I don't get then.

Lower Barclay- how many might that be, 2,500-3,000 all stand?

Leeds- whenever I see them on TV (too often!), at Elland Road a fair chunk of their fans seem to be standing.

South Bank at Wolves appears to have had safe standing put in so I assume a fair bit of that stand do so persistently.

Yet at AG, we have 1,000-1,500 in the s82/singing Section...and that's your lot!  I can't believe they are the only people in the ground who would like a relaxed approach to standing etc. (You can still workaround to sing sat down but it's tricky and less natural).

At Plymouth, top 2 rows of a stand shut and possible relocation/suspension of season tickets pending meetings or similar.

The numbers and proportion are out of kilter at AG therefore to the above examples. It appears that there isn't a great deal of consistency at national level.

The number of fans who like to stand at each club will naturally vary. The layout of any given ground will also make it easier or more difficult for a club to take a tolerant approach to standing in certain areas. The people involved (e.g. the personnel on the SAG) are another factor that is naturally different from club to club.

I think that given all those things, the 1,100 or so in the 'S82' corner is a pretty sensible solution for now. The very fact that fans from other parts of the ground do try to sneak in there does, however, show that there is a greater appetite for watching the game in this way than can be satisfied by that small area. As and when safe standing is formally allowed, it would therefore make sense for the club to try to gauge the level of demand and to cater for it accordingly.

[Guest]

What is to stop a whole stand standing then? If Norwich, Leeds and others do it why can't we (obviously would need arranging somehow). I would not want people standing in front of people who actually do want to sit etc. I just don't see how it can be stopped if everyone in the SS all stood and everyone just ignored the so called "rules".

Regarding SAG, surely that should be a group for the whole league and not club by club? Especially if the Norwich one says "carry on" and the Plymouth ones says"you're banned"!! Seems crazy

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, wood_red said:

What is to stop a whole stand standing then? If Norwich, Leeds and others do it why can't we (obviously would need arranging somehow). I would not want people standing in front of people who actually do want to sit etc. I just don't see how it can be stopped if everyone in the SS all stood and everyone just ignored the so called "rules".

Regarding SAG, surely that should be a group for the whole league and not club by club? Especially if the Norwich one says "carry on" and the Plymouth ones says"you're banned"!! Seems crazy

Think the problem or part of it at Plymouth having looked further is quite specific- redevelopment, and the issue seems to be standing at side stands eg say closest equivalent to top row of Dolman rather than behind goal.

Leeds, dunno what's going on there.

Norwich- lower tier- guess the equivalent would be half of South Stand stood?

SAG, ha well the funny thing about our one, dunno about other clubs/cities but we don't actually know who is on it! Wall of secrecy- two FOI requests turned down, but SAGs are linked to local councils I believe. SGSA are a national body but seem more pragmatic IMO than SAGs- dunno how it all feeds in.

As I am sure @Blagdon red will agree/confirm, fans have been pushing for/requesting a fan Rep on our local SAG for a while now.

Seems like SAGs in some parts of the country are happy enough to tolerate standing behind goal but not in side stands. Therefore top row of South would be ok but not Dolman, perceived risk lower I suppose.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ashton_gate_safety_advisory_grou

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ashton_gate_safety_advisory_grou_2

Look at this though- shameful and ridiculous for a public body making decisions about the public (in thios case, fans), paid for by the- er- public, some of whom will be match going fans in Bristol! Obviously you can;t publish everything and everyone but...

Democracy? Pah! Their view anyway I'm sure...

Varies all over the country- the below maybe an exception and not the norm!

https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/business/health-and-safety-work/safety-sports-grounds