Red Army 87 Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 hour ago, spudski said: ...what was LJ thinking? Elliason and Palmer in the same starting line up. Said to a mate, soon as I saw selection...'you watch, it'll be the most open game of football, end to end, anyone can win'...and so it came to be. Most ridiculous game I've seen tactically in ages. Then to cap it all...we go 1 up and then proceed to plod about with no energy or urgency. The tone set by Palmer and it spread throughout...all apart from Messengo who was working his socks off...covering where others were less urgent. No wonder he got an injury...through having to work twice as hard. Where was Brownhill today? Strolling. Boro get a goal back...oh and guess what...our energy comes back. I'd be spitting feathers over that if I were LJ. However...he picked that side. Look at our stats...awful completed passes rate...poor possession by comparison. Way fewer passes. Thought LJ cocked up today with team selection. Genuinely think it took until HT for the players to realise we weren’t playing with 3 across the back. As entertaining as it was, the game was ridiculously open. I think we expected Boro to sit back, set our stalls out that way and didn’t know how to react when they came at us - creating what you have described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin_unreliant Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 I was very disappointed with Brownhill today. If Nagy is back after the break I would be all for keeping HNM in and dropping JB. Doubt LJ will do that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 minute ago, robin_unreliant said: I was very disappointed with Brownhill today. If Nagy is back after the break I would be all for keeping HNM in and dropping JB. Doubt LJ will do that though. True, he didn't seem right today. Hopefully, normal service will be resumed fter the break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James54De Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Bazooka Joe said: True, he didn't seem right today. Hopefully, normal service will be resumed fter the break. They all looked a bit leggy. Often happens in the game before the first international break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 There were times last season at our best where the other side looked like they could play for another 90 and not score against us. We have not really had that solidity this year, but we are carrying more threat. It was normally the type of match where I would have said first goal was vital, as the leading side would tighten up and play on the break. We tried to do that and had a couple of half chances for 2-0, but we were never ‘tight’. I think the bench highlighted our problems. With the exception of I assume a not match fit WIllaims, and Pereira, we simply had no players to bring on who would ‘tighten us up’. Would not have been heartbroken to see Pack come off the bench... If this was the case when players get back, I would be rather more worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Rich Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, spudski said: And this is my way of thinking...we have so many injuries, so you need to protect the squad, not overwork them. Today picking Eliasson and Palmer, it meant others were going to have to work twice as hard both physically and mentally to cover those two lack of natural defensive awareness, positioning and effort. It was therefore no surprise to see both Hunt and Messengo get injured... especially Messengo who was constantly having to cover Palmer. Just disagree Palmer was immense 1st half and tracked back brilliantly. He broke up play made several crucial tackles and was up and down the pitch. Everyone sat back a bit more 2nd half so you could criticise him to some extent then but he wasn't even on the pitch for over half of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 Sorry Sound but this time you have got it totally wrong. I actually really enjoyed the game and on the balance of it a draw was the correct result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppyDAZE Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 What a right pain in the arse Middlesbrough were today.... The cheeky blighters tried to win the football game. LJ boooooooooooooooooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said: What a right pain in the arse Middlesbrough were today.... The cheeky blighters tried to win the football game. LJ boooooooooooooooooo I found it rather refreshing, playing KP and NE didn't cause an open game, what caused an open game was that Boro came here and attacked, rather than park the bus like 99% of teams do. Week after week we come up against teams at Ashton Gate that put 11 behind the ball and cheat and waste time, credit to Boro for not doing that today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_eastender Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said: I was very disappointed with Brownhill today. If Nagy is back after the break I would be all for keeping HNM in and dropping JB. Doubt LJ will do that though. No chance LJ will drop Brownhill, but agree Nagy, Massengo & Palmer playing together would be ace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 I did wonder pre game if potential for Walsh, in a 3. Obviously the Massengo injury would've thrown a spanner in the works but I think a central 3 with Walsh added into Brown hill and Massengo would've helped with control and security. Given the 2 injuries and the fact we threw away/Middlesbrough turned around our lead I'm happy enough with the point but could've been a better selection first up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 9 minutes ago, Up The City! said: I found it rather refreshing, playing KP and NE didn't cause an open game, what caused an open game was that Boro came here and attacked, rather than park the bus like 99% of teams do. Week after week we come up against teams at Ashton Gate that put 11 behind the ball and cheat and waste time, credit to Boro for not doing that today. That's not true tbh. Leeds attacked. QPR had reasonable chunk of the game albeit not so many clear cut chances. Last season was a mixed bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 50 minutes ago, spudski said: They weren't complacent or lazy in first half. But were at start of second half. They soon found their energy and focus again when we had to chase the game. That's the point I'm making...we shut off and allowed Boro back in the game. Players tired more, because they were working harder covering Eliasson and Palmer when defending. Wasn't having a go at the team or LJ...just making an observation that today we screwed up a little imo. Played less open and without Eliasson or Palmer in the same side I think we would have won that game. Just my opinion. Appreciate that pal. I still respectfully disagree; we have some very important players missing and have played some tough games, long away day last week; I think I saw fatigue and management. Of course you can find an extra 10% in adversity (going behind) which you probably didn’t know you had immediately prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhamred Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 Think that Palmer was more cautious after his booking which affected his influence on the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcofisher Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 37 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said: I was very disappointed with Brownhill today. If Nagy is back after the break I would be all for keeping HNM in and dropping JB. Doubt LJ will do that though. I don't really think you see the best of Brownhill playing next to HNM, Brownhill has to sit more as HNM is the one who presses. I would personally go with Brownhill and Nagy against Stoke, Brownhill offers a lot more offensively and someone like Nagy will compliment him a lot better. As talented as HNM is I think there is still bits of his game that need to be refined, seems sometimes to press endlessly when he would be better off plugging gaps. He will clearly be the best player in the club within a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick's Marvels Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 We have a multitude of options, formation-wise. That, combined with a coach who has a tendency to over-think and complicate, will inevitably lead to games where we don't get what we perhaps should have. Today was a case in point. Even with the same starting XI, ie both Elliason and Palmer, he could have put square pegs in square holes formation-wise and given us a better chance. Or just not signed Palmer and found a way to play 2 up front at home and Elliason on the wing (how can you not pick him at home, given his first half performance today?) Or the linesman could have done his job and flagged Assombafatso offide (credit, cool finish), Moore could have cleared by heading it properly, or this or that, ifs and buts on and on It was a good game of football, I enjoyed it, we'll have a good season, shit happens, quit the bloody navel gazing and see the bigger picture. "We go again". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 2 hours ago, spudski said: ...what was LJ thinking? Elliason and Palmer in the same starting line up. Said to a mate, soon as I saw selection...'you watch, it'll be the most open game of football, end to end, anyone can win'...and so it came to be. Most ridiculous game I've seen tactically in ages. Then to cap it all...we go 1 up and then proceed to plod about with no energy or urgency. The tone set by Palmer and it spread throughout...all apart from Messengo who was working his socks off...covering where others were less urgent. No wonder he got an injury...through having to work twice as hard. Where was Brownhill today? Strolling. Boro get a goal back...oh and guess what...our energy comes back. I'd be spitting feathers over that if I were LJ. However...he picked that side. Look at our stats...awful completed passes rate...poor possession by comparison. Way fewer passes. Thought LJ cocked up today with team selection. I think you've made a couple of good points there but are wide of the mark mostly. It was an Eric Morecombe selection - all the right players but not necessarily in the right positions. I predicted the starting XI in a previous thread but assumed we would go 4 2 3 1 but I think he may have got carried away with the result last weekand went for 2 up top. The issue with this formation last year wasn't the formation but the players within it. Palmer gets in scoring positions whereas Paterson played like he wasn't allowed in the box. I thought Massengdid okay but struggled mostly. Brownhill was poor - not sure he's a captain. Only players talking today were Moore and Rowe. It seems LJ is determined to play 2 strikers which worries me as Eliasson is by a long way our most creative player. Why on earth was he not moved to the left more? Their left back did well against him, but he clearly had the beating of their right back, yet probably only had the opportunity to take him on once and that led to the first goal. LJ could do with keeping things simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcofisher Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 Just for comparison today, here are the defensive stats: Eliasson with 6 tackles, yet HNM committed 2 fouls and did not make a single tackle, interception or clearance in the whole time he was on. Working your socks off doesn't necessarily equate to a good performance, and HNM's performance today is part of the reason why it seemed so open, he did win a lot of fouls but in reality that's all he really did today. I can't really understand why Brownhill is the one singled out today. I would prefer to see Nagy next to Brownhill next match, would add a bit more steel to that midfield. HNM, despite being our most talented player, still needs some time to find his feet at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said: Playing devils advocate a little here - but why is setting up for an “open” game any less valid than setting up for a more “closed” game? Is it right that our first priority should be to not lose? An open game means more chances at both ends - we’re more likely to score, but more likely to concede. Whereas a closed game means we’re less likely to score, but less likely to concede. Overall our chances of winning the match are about the same, no? Yes I agree. Here is LJs situation. injuries. Kalas, Bailey-Wright, DeSilva, Nagy, Smith, Janneh. Watkins coming back. His options otherwise on the bench were there to see. Starting the team he did was going to make things a bit more open of course it was, but how many options were there. If Williams was up to speed to fit in a 3 then great but obviously he wasn’t so go and try and out score a team that were not having a good time of it, at home, and try and get to the two week break at least unbeaten. The game was a test of squad depth and what can happen if you lose a lot of options and how that can change teams and game plans. He did what he did and we played well. At half time Talk sport commentators were loving us. Second half we gave up some possession were less lively gave away an oggy and fell foul of the dubiousness of the current offside laws. It happens. But to blame LJ for some how getting it wrong is just nonsense. He got this as right as he could have with the hand he was dealt. Some times bluffing a pair wont win you the pot. Bit we bloody split this one under very difficult circumstances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colemanballs Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Cowshed said: Because City were open out of possession. That flies in the face of fundamental principles of play in open out in possession close down and compact out of it, or aggressively counter press etc to control space. The first sentence makes a certain sense. The second sentence starts with a capital letter and ends with a full stop, but I'm jiggered if I can make any sense of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 Funnily listening to LJs post match interview, it reflects pretty much what I've said...good going forward, but way too open, and lacked organisation in defence. He's disappointed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 23 minutes ago, Colemanballs said: The first sentence makes a certain sense. The second sentence starts with a capital letter and ends with a full stop, but I'm jiggered if I can make any sense of it. Sounds like a Colemanball to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 3 hours ago, spudski said: ...what was LJ thinking? Elliason and Palmer in the same starting line up. Said to a mate, soon as I saw selection...'you watch, it'll be the most open game of football, end to end, anyone can win'...and so it came to be. Most ridiculous game I've seen tactically in ages. Then to cap it all...we go 1 up and then proceed to plod about with no energy or urgency. The tone set by Palmer and it spread throughout...all apart from Messengo who was working his socks off...covering where others were less urgent. No wonder he got an injury...through having to work twice as hard. Where was Brownhill today? Strolling. Boro get a goal back...oh and guess what...our energy comes back. I'd be spitting feathers over that if I were LJ. However...he picked that side. Look at our stats...awful completed passes rate...poor possession by comparison. Way fewer passes. Thought LJ cocked up today with team selection. Being this angry all the time isn't good for you mate. Relax and enjoy, we're 5th with 7 injuries. It's really not so bad and if we'd have been able to play 3 at the back I'm sure we'd have seen it out at 1-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SedRA Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 21 minutes ago, spudski said: Funnily listening to LJs post match interview, it reflects pretty much what I've said...good going forward, but way too open, and lacked organisation in defence. He's disappointed too. He didn’t point out Eliasson and KP as the reason for that though. Which I would guess is what most people have taken issue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, J D said: Being this angry all the time isn't good for you mate. Relax and enjoy, we're 5th with 7 injuries. It's really not so bad and if we'd have been able to play 3 at the back I'm sure we'd have seen it out at 1-0 Angry all the time? I've done nothing but support LJ on here since he's been here. All I've pointed out today was some negatives from the game, that for me, was there for the taking if we had implemented a game plan better. No coincidence he took Palmer off. Add the fact LJ points out the same reasons I have, and is also disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SedRA Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 35 minutes ago, spudski said: Angry all the time? I've done nothing but support LJ on here since he's been here. All I've pointed out today was some negatives from the game, that for me, was there for the taking if we had implemented a game plan better. No coincidence he took Palmer off. Add the fact LJ points out the same reasons I have, and is also disappointed. See, I thought KP came off as he was shattered and that we lost control of the game from then on. I think he needs to tame down a bit of the chasing players around that he did in the first half - he doesn't have the stamina of Weimann to keep it up for 90 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colemanballs Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, spudski said: Angry all the time? I've done nothing but support LJ on here since he's been here. All I've pointed out today was some negatives from the game, that for me, was there for the taking if we had implemented a game plan better. No coincidence he took Palmer off. Add the fact LJ points out the same reasons I have, and is also disappointed. So, out of interest, what would your team lineup have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, Colemanballs said: So, out of interest, what would your team lineup have been? _______________Bentley______________ Hunt_____Moore_______Baker____Rowe ______________Messengo____________ _____Brownhill___________Odowda____ _______________Palmer______________ _________Weimann____Afobe_________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 15 minutes ago, RedSA said: See, I thought KP came off as he was shattered and that we lost control of the game from then on. I think he needs to tame down a little bit of the chasing players around that he did in the first half - he doesn't have the stamina of Weimann to keep it up for 90 minutes. Personally I thought his effort and attitude today was outstanding , but as you say could have done with taming it down to preserve himself Having said that he was covering a large area of the pitch alone in second half and Weimann kept demanding he pressed as well He's some player if we can use him right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 3 hours ago, David Brent said: Ooh I’d have picked a different team. Love me..pathetic I think it’s fine to see a line-up pre-game and think you’d pick something different. I also think it’s not difficult to see a team sheet, think it’s gonna be 442 and with the personnel, expect an open game. Perhaps LJ thought that was the best approach. @spudski I disagree with lack of effort....I think that’s too easy a brush to tar Palmer with. Positional sense, etc, maybe. The overall team shape too. Palmer slowing down possession is not lack of effort....it might’ve been the wrong choice on the ball, but don’t forget, Boro moved us around really well. You could argue Brownhill and Massengo were as guilty for not tracking McNair and Wing when they ran beyond them centrally. I think - having reflected on what I saw today - that it proves 442 is often our worst formation, when up against anything other than an opposing 442....unless it is a defensive 442., e.g. Brownhill / Smith / Pack / Bryan. I haven’t heard any post-match analysis or interviews as a I’ve been out, so not sure what else has been said. Tough team selection for LJ today. Another week, and I think Williams would’ve started and he’d have kept his 5212. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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