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What’s the point of VAR in the Premier League?


Dr Balls

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52 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Thats the lack of communication that LJ spoke of after the game.

A shout from a team mate to Moore to leave it and Assombalonga is offside.

Poor goal to concede/give away.

 

I played center back in my day and instinct would have made Taylor Moore attempt to win that header knowing a player was waiting to receive it whether he had a shout to leave it or not. Imagine if he had just let it go and the goal was still given. He would have been slaughtered on here for not trying to clear it.

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7 hours ago, chinapig said:

VAR can only be used for goals, penalties, red cards, and mistaken identity. None of these applied.

We seem to be in a position where fans are simultaneously saying that VAR shouldn't be used at all and that it should be used for every disputed decision.

As for Grealish, his well earned reputation for diving did for Villa. Perhaps he should have thought of that before?

He doesn’t dive - he’s way too skilful for most defenders and he gets fouled - a lot. He didn’t even appeal for a penalty during that incident at Palace yesterday. 

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5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

He doesn’t dive - he’s way too skilful for most defenders and he gets fouled - a lot. He didn’t even appeal for a penalty during that incident at Palace yesterday. 

He gets fouled a lot. He also dives on other occasions. The two are not mutually exclusive. Rather like Zaha in that respect.

As to how good he is, I'll wait until he has had a full Premier League season before judging whether he is as good as his reputation. He will need to deliver in the way Maddison has I think to justify the claims of some that he should be in the England squad already.

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28 minutes ago, chinapig said:

He gets fouled a lot. He also dives on other occasions. The two are not mutually exclusive. Rather like Zaha in that respect.

As to how good he is, I'll wait until he has had a full Premier League season before judging whether he is as good as his reputation. He will need to deliver in the way Maddison has I think to justify the claims of some that he should be in the England squad already.

I agree.

Clear foul? Dunno- thought he went down fairly easy but will gladly watch it again.

IF perhaps he got a bit of a foul and it was classed as a dive then as you said earlier in the thread his reputation may have counted against him.

I remember in the mid 2000s, Andy Johnson had a rep for Everton or some other side of going down easy.  Didn't get many pens for a while! Mud can stick.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree.

Clear foul? Dunno- thought he went down fairly easy but will gladly watch it again.

IF perhaps he got a bit of a foul and it was classed as a dive then as you said earlier in the thread his reputation may have counted against him.

I remember in the mid 2000s, Andy Johnson had a rep for Everton or some other side of going down easy.  Didn't get many pens for a while! Mud can stick.

I don't think it was a penalty or a dive yesterday, so I do suspect his reputation cost him.

He also tends to berate officials somewhat, which may not help him with marginal decisions. Not that I think refs will deliberately decide against him, more a sub-conscious thing.

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The fundamental issue with VAR and recent law changes are it detracts from the fundamental simplicity of Football, namely wherever you are, whatever level you play at The Laws remain the same for all participants.

So now we have a situation whereby an attacker in the box who handles the ball though without intending to do so is penalised, a defender in the same circumstance is not. How long before somebody punches one off the line only to claim they didn't intend to do so and were protecting their head or suchlike?

Stupid.

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5 hours ago, chinapig said:

Then you need to lobby IFAB for a change in the law. In the meantime the fact that Moore headed the ball put Assombalonga onside I'm afraid.

There is nothing new about that and we may have benefited from it in the past or may benefit in the future.

Id argue that had he not of been in a offside position then Moore would have taken a different course of action. He wasn't to know if he was offside or not so made a desperate and poor attempt to prevent the ball from reaching the offside player.

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6 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Id argue that had he not of been in a offside position then Moore would have taken a different course of action. He wasn't to know if he was offside or not so made a desperate and poor attempt to prevent the ball from reaching the offside player.

However the law doesn't and can't account for hypothetical situations. It can only deal with what players do not what they might have done if circumstances had been different.

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1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

He doesn’t dive - he’s way too skilful for most defenders and he gets fouled - a lot. He didn’t even appeal for a penalty during that incident at Palace yesterday. 

His momentum took him down, and as he fell he delivered an unbelievable pass to a team mate.  He did not appeal for a penalty.  How the referee could have deemed it a dive is laughable.  I agree with Jermaine Jenas that it was one of the worst decisions in the history of the Premier League.

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58 minutes ago, chinapig said:

However the law doesn't and can't account for hypothetical situations. It can only deal with what players do not what they might have done if circumstances had been different.

In that case the law is a ass. Had their player not been offside then that header goes back to the keeper.

Why can't the rule be if your offside when the ball is played then your offside, none of this active or inactive bollocks or defenders deliberately playing the ball etc. 

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4 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

In that case the law is a ass. Had their player not been offside then that header goes back to the keeper.

Why can't the rule be if your offside when the ball is played then your offside, none of this active or inactive bollocks or defenders deliberately playing the ball etc. 

Again, you need to ask IFAB!

That was the law years ago but it led to goals being disallowed because somebody was in an offside position despite not being involved in the play at all. That also allowed teams to repeatedly play the offside trap, which was a bit of a buzz kill to say the least.

Us oldies can remember goals being disallowed because a player standing on the wing 30 yards from the play was standing in an offside position.

That was regarded as unfair, which is why the law was changed, along with others, to favour the attacking side. On balance the current law seems more sensible but you're never going to please everybody I suppose.

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Thierry Henry was the master of the not being active law. He would stray offside with the opposition thinking leave him he's well off and suddenly a different player gets on the ball who has come from an onside position makes the run and passes to Henry who is now onside with nobody near him.....and goal have that.

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8 hours ago, chinapig said:

I agree, but as long as we have VAR, fans, and especially pundits, should at least understand when and how it will be used. A lot of the arguments are about situations where VAR would not be used at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/09/var-premier-league-season

I think this is what needs sorting, the when and how. Checking a video in itself isn't a bad thing, neither can be waiting for a big call - it means you can even celebrate twice in some cases and adds to the drama if done correctly in a timely fashion.

Ref mics (for TV and supporters at the ground) and more transparency of processes should be top priority too.

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6 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

Thats the lack of communication that LJ spoke of after the game.

A shout from a team mate to Moore to leave it and Assombalonga is offside.

Poor goal to concede/give away.

 

Moore or any of the other defenders wouldn’t have known if he was offside or not, there was inches in it, so no other player is going to give Moore a shout. 

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25 minutes ago, Rinkadink said:

I think this is what needs sorting, the when and how. Checking a video in itself isn't a bad thing, neither can be waiting for a big call - it means you can even celebrate twice in some cases and adds to the drama if done correctly in a timely fashion.

Ref mics (for TV and supporters at the ground) and more transparency of processes should be top priority too.

I’m all for refs to have mics, but for the reason that people will then realise the shite they have to put up with from the players!

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13 minutes ago, BS3_RED said:

Watching the Spurs game now and trying to work out how the hold on Alli does not even warrant a review. I for one wanted VAR but the way it is being used I am glad we dont have it in the Championship 

Anyone know if there are plans to introduce it in the future? I hope not for what it`s worth.

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28 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Moore or any of the other defenders wouldn’t have known if he was offside or not, there was inches in it, so no other player is going to give Moore a shout. 

Inches ?

My eyesight must be shot to ****.

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Sat here watching the Man United V Arsenal game, how the hell were United not given a penalty for hand ball? And the offside call for Aubas goal was bizarre, he was clearly onside, Auba didn't even celebrate due to the flag going up. All goals are reviewed anyways so why did the lino flag it offside? 

I just don't understand VAR and when and when it isn't used. 

Also Neville mentioned that he has a ear piece to listen into what is going on and announced the goal before the ref did, why isn't this feed played to the viewers also? I feel like I'm in the dark half the time and would maybe understand if we were shown the decision making process.

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It’s a completely different situation in both rugby union and cricket. Watching the Rugby World Cup, the viewer gets to hear what the referee has asked for, and also sees what the TMO sees. Likewise the TV viewer in the cricket gets to see the 3rd umpire go through the ball tracking and snickometer, then make a clear decision. Admittedly the poor punter at the ground doesn’t get to see any of that, same as football, but it does seem the other sports have got this way more sorted.

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I completely agree.

The difficultly with VaR  is the lack of definition in where and when it’s used.

Goals - I can see why every goal scored is checked but things like unclear handball that’s been missed by the ref is deemed as necessary to review the incident and notify the ref .....why? It’s not as missing an unclear handball is a ‘clear and obvious mistake’.....

As for offside whilst the delay in annoying a player is either on or offside and the VaR review is absolute.

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6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I completely agree.

The difficultly with VaR  is the lack of definition in where and when it’s used.

Goals - I can see why every goal scored is checked but things like unclear handball that’s been missed by the ref is deemed as necessary to review the incident and notify the ref .....why? It’s not as missing an unclear handball is a ‘clear and obvious mistake’.....

As for offside whilst the delay in annoying a player is either on or offside and the VaR review is absolute.

In this case Auba was like 5 yards on side. It was a bizarre call. 

It's the clear and obvious mistake that I struggle to understand. With that handball did the ref see it or not? Was the players arms in a unnatural position? For me that was a penalty all day long. The player had plenty of time to get his arms out of the way.

It just seems to me that by overturning the ref that's like them admitting the ref got it wrong. 

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37 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Sat here watching the Man United V Arsenal game, how the hell were United not given a penalty for hand ball? And the offside call for Aubas goal was bizarre, he was clearly onside, Auba didn't even celebrate due to the flag going up. All goals are reviewed anyways so why did the lino flag it offside? 

I just don't understand VAR and when and when it isn't used. 

Also Neville mentioned that he has a ear piece to listen into what is going on and announced the goal before the ref did, why isn't this feed played to the viewers also? I feel like I'm in the dark half the time and would maybe understand if we were shown the decision making process.

Handball - because the player didn't make his body unnaturally bigger, its hit his arm naturally by his side, funnily enough if thats the striker and he then kicks it in the goal is disallowed ?‍♂️

For the goal and offside...... Either the lino is sure he's offside and just shit or he's fluffed what he should be doing (more likely)

'Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is not certain whether the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, the assistant should delay indicating the offence until the phase of play has concluded.

Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is certain the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, then the assistant should indicate the offence immediately.

In both of these situations the referee should wait to blow the whistle until the immediate phase of play has ended.'

As for Neville getting a feed for the decision making they won't give it to the public because of the controversy it may cause if the refs are made audible, however you'll also never get refs mics made live because of the language thats used in football despite the attempts made to change it.

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26 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I completely agree.

The difficultly with VaR  is the lack of definition in where and when it’s used.

Goals - I can see why every goal scored is checked but things like unclear handball that’s been missed by the ref is deemed as necessary to review the incident and notify the ref .....why? It’s not as missing an unclear handball is a ‘clear and obvious mistake’.....

As for offside whilst the delay in annoying a player is either on or offside and the VaR review is absolute.

It’s not absolute because you can’t be sure the exact time the ball is played due to the frame rates of the video. Someone explained this better on Twitter I think but basically when it’s these real close millimetre decisions with the coloured lines, there’s a degree of inaccuracy

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3 minutes ago, hodge said:

Handball - because the player didn't make his body unnaturally bigger, its hit his arm naturally by his side, funnily enough if thats the striker and he then kicks it in the goal is disallowed ?‍♂️

For the goal and offside...... Either the lino is sure he's offside and just shit or he's fluffed what he should be doing (more likely)

'Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is not certain whether the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, the assistant should delay indicating the offence until the phase of play has concluded.

Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is certain the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, then the assistant should indicate the offence immediately.

In both of these situations the referee should wait to blow the whistle until the immediate phase of play has ended.'

As for Neville getting a feed for the decision making they won't give it to the public because of the controversy it may cause if the refs are made audible, however you'll also never get refs mics made live because of the language thats used in football despite the attempts made to change it.

The problem is there is just so many grey areas and inconsistencies, especially with hand ball, no one fully understands what hand ball is these days. For me, he had plenty of time to move his hand so therefore it should be hand ball. 

The offside was absolutely ridiculous, that was a stupendous mistake for the lino and if he's getting them sort of offsides wrong then he should not be running the line for such huge games. 

I'd just be happy for there to be a live feed of the decision making process back at VAR hq. I don't like the cloak of secrecy around the process. 

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1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

It’s not absolute because you can’t be sure the exact time the ball is played due to the frame rates of the video. Someone explained this better on Twitter I think but basically when it’s these real close millimetre decisions with the coloured lines, there’s a degree of inaccuracy

It will never be 100%, could be calibration issues etc. I'm baffled as to why a hawk eye system for offsides hasn't been developed. With their expertise it would be far more accurate than some person moving some red and blue lines around. 

Today's offside call should never of needed the red and blue lines, it was clear to see with the naked eyes.

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10 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

It’s not absolute because you can’t be sure the exact time the ball is played due to the frame rates of the video. Someone explained this better on Twitter I think but basically when it’s these real close millimetre decisions with the coloured lines, there’s a degree of inaccuracy

I’m sure many of us will remember Sterling having a goal ruled out for England because his toe was offside................:facepalm:

The attitude of the commentators was ‘ if he’s offside then he’s offside’.........It’s exactly the same now.

VaR is beyond reproach.

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