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The absolute state of Italian football


redsince1994

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4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I love Italy, but there's no more racist country in Western Europe.

It's the only place still where you can talk to some well-educated seemingly cultured person and have them tell you: "The trouble with London is there's too many blacks."

I’d disagree with that, I’ve heard it from Germans and definitely from people in this country who live ‘in the sticks’.  

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1 minute ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I’d disagree with that, I’ve heard it from Germans and definitely from people in this country who live ‘in the sticks’.  

I used to have a holiday share in Umbria, MR. Went there multiple times every year. 

Italy's the only place I've seen bus drivers simply drive past bus stops if black people are waiting there.

A (now deceased) mate of mine was half Nigerian/half-Bajan but married to an Italian girl. He saw it there too.

People like Matteo Salvini (foreign minister until recently) make Nigel Farage look like Owen Jones.  The football culture there reflects that. I used to drink in an "Irish pub" in Perugia that was a Lazio supporters hang-out. The Lazio boys made most Millwall supporters seem like social workers.

Italy is a wonderful country and I love it, but it's years behind the curve in racial integration.

Probably ahead of all of Eastern Europe though :shocking:

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2 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

I'm not backing up for John Cleese, but what he would have classed as an English London now isnt the same as what he was when he was growing up. To him i doubt it does feel english anymore.

I feel a similar sense of loss in that he used to be funny when I was younger and now he just isn't.

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4 hours ago, STeveOELlis said:

Anyone can rewrite their own definitions. Nationalism and racism are two separate things.

Anyway major, your original point is moot and irrelevant as Italian football has been this way for decades. Racism within Italian football is not on the rise, it has decreased, a lot.  

Nationalism breeds racism.

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6 hours ago, handsofclay said:

In light of this, the KKK are owed a massive apology for the great respect they exhibited towards African Americans in the Deep South. They have been much maligned due to the efforts of Martin Luther King in misinterpreting their actions.

Martin luther king was as much a racist to whites as kkk are to blacks

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6 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Sadly , there is a rise in ‘ Nationalism ‘ all over the world ,even in England.

The human race is going to Hell in a handcart. 

We have learned nothing from history and for all our intelligence we have not made this world a better place. 

The visions offered by Gandhi , Mandela and Jesus lie sullied in the gutter whilst dictators march all over the planet slowly sucking the life out of it .

 

Sadly!?!?! What a stupid comment. Nationalism, you know the one, Being proud of your country and history of it and beliefs of it, is a bad thing to you. Weird?

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15 minutes ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Sadly!?!?! What a stupid comment. Nationalism, you know the one, Being proud of your country and history of it and beliefs of it, is a bad thing to you. Weird?

I think my country is responsible for a huge amount of evil. Are you able to admit the horrendous things Britain has done in the name of empire? Being proud of where you're from is one thing, being blinkered is another. 

Secondly, what are the "beliefs" of Britain?

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44 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

I'm not backing up for John Cleese, but what he would have classed as an English London now isnt the same as what he was when he was growing up. To him i doubt it does feel english anymore.

It’s code for too many brown people, simple as and is unacceptable 

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1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

I think my country is responsible for a huge amount of evil. Are you able to admit the horrendous things Britain has done in the name of empire? Being proud of where you're from is one thing, being blinkered is another. 

Secondly, what are the "beliefs" of Britain?

You know that empire did a great deal of good as well? 

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2 hours ago, Neutral said:

Nationalism breeds racism.

 

2 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Sadly!?!?! What a stupid comment. Nationalism, you know the one, Being proud of your country and history of it and beliefs of it, is a bad thing to you. Weird?

 

26 minutes ago, Malago said:

No all nationalists are racists, but all racists are nationalists.

You realise not all nationalism is good, not all is bad?

Definitely there are dangerous types of nationalism though, but not all types are. By the same token, certain types and elements of nationalism are very dangerous or risky.

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11 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Can I just say that I love OTIB ? 

You guys are amazing. 

Is there any other football forum where the character of Gandhi could be discussed or the merits of the British Empire ( all on the same thread) 

:clap:

Anthropological theological historical political sports thread, classic OTIB

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2 hours ago, bristolcitysweden said:

We are very reluctant to stay in London as it is not the England we know since the seventees

Thank god for that. Back them it was a bombed out hell hole with soggy chips and miky tea, a drab grey air and declining population. Not saying it is perfect today, far from it, but the change is not a bad thing in many respects. 

Racism and nationalism do sometimes go hand in hand. Not always, but it is often easy to define 'them vs. us' through the context of the nation state and its borders. This is something that has happened throughout history, especially in Europe between 1850-1945.

Great thread btw, some really good debate. 

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7 hours ago, OneCity said:

Those who call nationalism racist are the same who would have Union Jacks banned in public for being 'offensive' to non-British people. Total BS. As said, do not confuse national pride, which is a thing, with nationalism, which is another thing, and racism which is yet another thing.

But of course there are those who call it all the same thing.  And it is these who often decide what is 'offensive' for everyone else.

Monkey-chanting is hideous. End of. But that said, the Inter statement requires some context. I somewhat understand where they're coming from. However they really should understand by now that their monkey-chanting supporters, even if they don't mean any racial offence, are nevertheless offensive to the person they're targeting. A sign of respect? Ridiculous. They don't seem to get that.

However, the reason I said 'I somewhat understand where they're coming from' is for this reason: 

How many people here, deploring and condemning this vile chant as I do, as we all do, did it themselves back in the 70s/80s?? Maybe a few actually did. Not calling anyone out at all, but it's worth thinking about. Because there was a time when yeh, the east end would erupt with monkey chants when a black player got the ball. It happened nationwide, across the leagues, stadium to stadium, every saturday without exception. Was it actual racial abuse, in the minds of each supporter doing it, in each and every case?

Here's an anecdote, which is what prompted me to write this post. I once took a black friend of mine, a West Ham supporter, to the derby versus the Rovers. He just wanted to come along and experience it. In that game, Rovers fielded a black player, let's say Devon White, don't recall who. Whenever he got the ball, particularly when shooting towards the east end - monkey-chants erupted in the east end. And guess what. My black friend joined in.  I nudged him and said, What the **** are you doing? He shrugged and replied, Trying to put him off aren't I?

Yes that really happened, and I felt very embarrassed by it. Personally I never did the monkey-chant, ever, and I was flummoxed that my black pal joined in.

Why? How?

Afterwards, we both put it down to a kind of 'mob rule'. It suggests that when a certain number start, more automatically join in. I think my black pal just wanted to 'fit in' with the crowd. Maybe he felt singled out as one black face among so many white, and wanted to look like and feel like one of the boys. An interesting take, isn't it? Because although this chant is taken as deeply racist, he didn't actually mean it as racist. I mean, how the hell could he, he's black himself! It would probably never happen today from a black spectator, not when everyone is being watched and judged for everything they do. Remember those were different days back then. A different consciousness existed. No social media, no repercussions, and nobody really cared what you did.

Back in those days, I'd suspect that a decent majority of the east end weren't racist either. Mob rule is/was thing, and played a big role in this. The supporters who did join in probably wouldn't monkey-chant a black person in the street for example! It’s purely an aspect of human behaviour when observed across large, complex systems. Riots work the same way. Thankfully in football the mob grew up. Evidently it's yet to do so in Italian football. But we should remember that in this light, the statement from Inter contains at least some validity – there ARE other facets to this phenomenon beyond just racism.

Racism in football is different now. It isn't the mob anymore in the UK, it's coming from a small albeit hateful minority. Which makes it more sinister. It's likely to be genuine racism in this case. But despite what the sensation-driven mainstream media gobshites say, it isn't at epidemic proportions though. A few twitter tw_a_ts are nothing compared to the tides of chanting, calling, swearing that filled the terraces and grandstands of yesteryear. Racism of course has by no means been eradicated from football in the UK. Not at all. But it's a LOT better than it was.

Whatever the case, and sorry for the long-windedness, monkey-chanting must be stamped out. Whatever skewed human psychology is behind it, whether that is racist or not, monkey-chanting is received by the players as a racist slur, always - and their feelings are paramount. It's time for Italian football to get it's house in order.

 

Great post. 

Along the same lines, it's only about 10/12 years ago I remember the whole of the East End singing with gusto "small town in Asia" to the Leicester fans. 

Now, a large proportion of posters on here were there that day. Are they all racists?...... 

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2 hours ago, Chairman Mao said:

Thank god for that. Back them it was a bombed out hell hole with soggy chips and miky tea, a drab grey air and declining population. Not saying it is perfect today, far from it, but the change is not a bad thing in many respects. 

Racism and nationalism do sometimes go hand in hand. Not always, but it is often easy to define 'them vs. us' through the context of the nation state and its borders. This is something that has happened throughout history, especially in Europe between 1850-1945.

Great thread btw, some really good debate. 

This is a fair point, but most of Britain has lost its historical and cultural ways and traditions in such a short space of time. 

The easiest way I can sum it up is to offer a comparison. What I love about going to areas of France, Italy and Spain is the very clear traditions and culture that is their normal way of life. That's what makes them uniquely appealing and the very reason I go there.

If, in a few decades, small Spanish towns have lost their "Spanishness" there'd be little point in me going there. So much is lost if a place becomes a melting pot. Its just plain obvious. A place's culture and history is every bit about its people. Of course, the places I'm talking about have changed over the years, but not nearly as fast as what's happened here. 

Think about the wonderful places across the world you might have visited. A key reason for your enjoyment was probably the authentic way of life you experienced. Is that worth protecting? 

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13 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Great post. 

Along the same lines, it's only about 10/12 years ago I remember the whole of the East End singing with gusto "small town in Asia" to the Leicester fans. 

Now, a large proportion of posters on here were there that day. Are they all racists?...... 

Well ...yeah. Or at least they were that day.

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12 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

This is a fair point, but most of Britain has lost its historical and cultural ways and traditions in such a short space of time. 

The easiest way I can sum it up is to offer a comparison. What I love about going to areas of France, Italy and Spain is the very clear traditions and culture that is their normal way of life. That's what makes them uniquely appealing and the very reason I go there.

If, in a few decades, small Spanish towns have lost their "Spanishness" there'd be little point in me going there. So much is lost if a place becomes a melting pot. Its just plain obvious. A place's culture and history is every bit about its people. Of course, the places I'm talking about have changed over the years, but not nearly as fast as what's happened here. 

Think about the wonderful places across the world you might have visited. A key reason for your enjoyment was probably the authentic way of life you experienced. Is that worth protecting? 

Culture isn't static. It invents itself as time goes on.

Take great British staple Fish & chips. Brought to Victorian London by Sephardic Jews. A mongrelised version of the Matzah fish that Jews have enjoyed for centuries.

More recently, curry has become something of a national cuisine. The stuff most "Indian" restaurants sell is an Anglicised version of Bangladeshi food. 

We've always been a melting pot - and been stronger for it.

Even the great British pub is something that spread nationwide with the 19th Century Irish diaspora. If you read about what taverns were like before then, they had little we would recognise as a modern 'pub'.

 

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