The absolute state of Italian football

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

Culture isn't static. It invents itself as time goes on.

Take great British staple Fish & chips. Brought to Victorian London by Sephardic Jews. A mongrelised version of the Matzah fish that Jews have enjoyed for centuries.

More recently, curry has become something of a national cuisine. The stuff most "Indian" restaurants sell is an Anglicised version of Bangladeshi food. 

We've always been a melting pot - and been stronger for it.

Even the great British pub is something that spread nationwide with the 19th Century Irish diaspora. If you read about what taverns were like before then, they had little we would recognise as a modern 'pub'.

 

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

[Porto Red]

30 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

Don't know about that Phil, I've never heard that. Bacalhau, salted cod, is a well known and very traditional dish here and can be had battered, but would more likely be served with boiled potatoes rather than chips, which are a more recent addition to the cuisine (although commonly served with meat). 

On the other hand, Catherine of Bragança, wife of Charles II, was responsible for introducing tea to the British isles.

[Red-Robbo]

49 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

Sephardic Jews are the Jews who originally lived in Portugal and Spain, but were expelled during the counter-reformation, so we could both be right, Phil. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

10 minutes ago, Porto Red said:

Don't know about that Phil, I've never heard that. Bacalhau, salted cod, is a well known and very traditional dish here and can be had battered, but would more likely be served with boiled potatoes rather than chips, which are a more recent addition to the cuisine (although commonly served with meat). 

On the other hand, Catherine of Bragança, wife of Charles II, was responsible for introducing tea to the British isles.

Salted cod, or 'Morue' as it is known here, is quite popular in France, but I don't recall seeing it battered: it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

[Major Isewater]

7 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Salted cod, or 'Morue' as it is known here, is quite popular in France, but I don't recall seeing it battered: it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

A speciality from Nimes.

The town incidentally where the word ‘ Denim ‘ comes from .

The cotton cloth arriving in the United States was imprinted ‘ De Nimes ‘ which means ‘ from Nimes ‘ .

 

[elhombrecito]

13 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

 it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

Sounds delicious 

[PHILINFRANCE]

22 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

A speciality from Nimes.

Indeed, although I understand it originated some 50km up the road in Ales.

I only know this because, several years ago, I was invited by a client to lunch in quite a nice French restaurant in Ales.

Spotting 'Brandade de Morue' on the menu, I commented (ignorantly ) on how interesting it was to see a Portuguese dish in this typically French restaurant! 

My host laughed and then regaled me with the history of the dish and how it was created centuries ago (in Ales) for the Atlantic fisherman who traded their salted cod for the local salt: my client stressed that the traditional brandade from Ales should not be confused with the inferior version from Nimes, which used a cod purée rather than proper chunks of fish.  

[OneCity]

I don’t know about his politics, I don’t follow him, I was just sent the link by a relation living in London and thought it was an eye-opener – accurate or not I don’t know. You tell me.

[Major Isewater]

30 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Indeed, although I understand it originated some 50km up the road in Ales.

I only know this because, several years ago, I was invited by a client to lunch in quite a nice French restaurant in Ales.

Spotting 'Brandade de Morue' on the menu, I commented (ignorantly ) on how interesting it was to see a Portuguese dish in this typically French restaurant! 

My host laughed and then regaled me with the history of the dish and how it was created centuries ago (in Ales) for the Atlantic fisherman who traded their salted cod for the local salt: my client stressed that the traditional brandade from Ales should not be confused with the inferior version from Nimes, which used a cod purée rather than proper chunks of fish.  

À fishy tale.

[bredwood]

27 minutes ago, OneCity said:

I don’t know about his politics, I don’t follow him, I was just sent the link by a relation living in London and thought it was an eye-opener – accurate or not I don’t know. You tell me.

 

Of course it's not correct. The guy is a member of UKIP and what he says is twisted to meet his political agenda.

London has it's problems particularly in the level of knife crime but that is due to a multitude of reasons. One of them is the level of demand for class A drugs from the political classes who then condemn the violence that results from the gangs that supply them trying to maintain and expand their customer base.

[steveybadger]

Anyone just see an Italian fan do a ‘’Roman’’ I.e fascist salute during the national anthem v Armenia? A la Di Canio.

Just another day fighting racism....

[Red-Robbo]

41 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Anyone just see an Italian fan do a ‘’Roman’’ I.e fascist salute during the national anthem v Armenia? A la Di Canio.

Just another day fighting racism....

You think they'd try and forget about the Mussolini era, wouldn't you?

Particularly as they made such a pig's ear of everything during it.

Apparently the trains didn't even run on time.

[cidered abroad]

4 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Interesting, if you are correct: I had always understood that 'fish and chips' had its origins in Portugal.

No doubt @Olé or @Porto Red, or even @cidered abroad, might be able to advise. 

I saw nothing like battered cod, haddock in eight years there.

Plenty of Salt Cod, Bacalhau, with a reputed different recipe for every day in the year.

They also love Sardines that are about three times bigger than the little tiddlers one gets here in UK.

[steveybadger]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

You think they'd try and forget about the Mussolini era, wouldn't you?

Particularly as they made such a pig's ear of everything during it.

Apparently the trains didn't even run on time.

Sadly symptomatic of a number of places and people around the world these days.Seems like people like this now feel much more empowered to do these things, probably due to certain people and events....

[Porto Red]

4 hours ago, bredwood said:

Of course it's not correct. The guy is a member of UKIP and what he says is twisted to meet his political agenda.

London has it's problems particularly in the level of knife crime but that is due to a multitude of reasons. One of them is the level of demand for class A drugs from the political classes who then condemn the violence that results from the gangs that supply them trying to maintain and expand their customer base.

Which in turn is due to the failure of the War on Drugs and the policies of criminalisation. For how it should be done, see, well, Portugal!

[MC RISK77]

I am half Italian (well Sicilian actually), shamefully I have to say that from my experience Italy and Italians have values that are questionable, my mother who is the Sicilian especially, I don’t know if it is engrained with religion as she is a catholic as is my dad who is Irish but growing up I had certain things that were mentioned regularly that are not befitting of the modern world which thankfully I never agreed with.

[MC RISK77]

On 04/09/2019 at 14:30, Merrick's Marvels said:

Sadly, the thread title should just be "The absolute state of Italy".

Have you ever been their it is probably one of the most beautiful countries in the world aside from beliefs

[Merrick's Marvels]

24 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

Have you ever been their it is probably one of the most beautiful countries in the world aside from beliefs

Shit the bed, man. Of course I've been there. Cremonese 2 City 2 for starters, although most of my visits have had nowt to do with football. Of course it's beautiful. It's wonderful. It's bonkers. It's one of my favourite places to visit.

Which is why my post starts "Sadly". Gedditt???? Obviously not.

Just a shame it's full of so many unapologetic, neanderthal racists. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Been to a Serie A game once.

Can say with honesty, at Roma-Inter 2 years ago never heard any racist chanting! Was near the Curva Sud too (Distini Sud, a near bit, Olimpico) but certainly didn't seem like anything, certainly not audible enough to hear, if at all.

Italy as a whole has quite a few problems, not least in this area but at Roma-Inter August 2017 I heard nothing that was racist.

[RumRed]

9 hours ago, OneCity said:

I don’t know about his politics, I don’t follow him, I was just sent the link by a relation living in London and thought it was an eye-opener – accurate or not I don’t know. You tell me.

 

And there is the problem with social media summed up in one post.  “I don’t know if it’s accurate or not, but in my little echo chamber I’ll parrot it cos my mate sent me it on Facebook”. Pathetic. 

[swanker]

15 hours ago, bredwood said:

 

London has it's problems particularly in the level of knife crime but that is due to a multitude of reasons. One of them is the level of demand for class A drugs from the political classes who then condemn the violence that results from the gangs that supply them trying to maintain and expand their customer base.

So the reason for young black kids going around knifing and killing one another in London is because of the political classes and their need for drugs?

who told you that?

 

 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, swanker said:

So the reason for young black kids going around knifing and killing one another in London is because of the political classes and their need for drugs?

who told you that?

 

 

Was it Boris ?

[bredwood]

2 hours ago, swanker said:

So the reason for young black kids going around knifing and killing one another in London is because of the political classes and their need for drugs?

who told you that?

 

 

I didn't say it was the reason if you bothered to read my post properly. I said it was one of the reasons and I agree it is a minor one compared to other causes such as the reduction in police funding and the shrinking of local authority budgets so that youth services have been shredded.

The point I was alluding to was that you get politicians such as Gove admitting they sniffed cocaine at social events without bothering to acknowledge the consequences.

[Nicki's soulmate]

19 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Salted cod, or 'Morue' as it is known here, is quite popular in France, but I don't recall seeing it battered: it is often served (desalted!) as a fish and mashed potato pie (with lots of garlic and olive oil), known as 'Brandade - and very nice it is too.

Mmm, does sound nice

[Northern Red]

13 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

I am half Italian (well Sicilian actually), shamefully I have to say that from my experience Italy and Italians have values that are questionable, my mother who is the Sicilian especially, I don’t know if it is engrained with religion as she is a catholic as is my dad who is Irish but growing up I had certain things that were mentioned regularly that are not befitting of the modern world which thankfully I never agreed with.

My Mum has a friend from university who is English but married an Italian and has lived over there for nearly 40 years. She came over to visit last summer and we were quite taken aback by some of the stuff she was coming out with, referring to black people as "choccies" etc, it sounds like it's quite normal over there.

[SedRA]

On 04/09/2019 at 14:58, OneCity said:

Those who call nationalism racist are the same who would have Union Jacks banned in public for being 'offensive' to non-British people. Total BS. As said, do not confuse national pride, which is a thing, with nationalism, which is another thing, and racism which is yet another thing.

But of course there are those who call it all the same thing.  And it is these who often decide what is 'offensive' for everyone else.

Monkey-chanting is hideous. End of. But that said, the Inter statement requires some context. I somewhat understand where they're coming from. However they really should understand by now that their monkey-chanting supporters, even if they don't mean any racial offence, are nevertheless offensive to the person they're targeting. A sign of respect? Ridiculous. They don't seem to get that.

However, the reason I said 'I somewhat understand where they're coming from' is for this reason: 

How many people here, deploring and condemning this vile chant as I do, as we all do, did it themselves back in the 70s/80s?? Maybe a few actually did. Not calling anyone out at all, but it's worth thinking about. Because there was a time when yeh, the east end would erupt with monkey chants when a black player got the ball. It happened nationwide, across the leagues, stadium to stadium, every saturday without exception. Was it actual racial abuse, in the minds of each supporter doing it, in each and every case?

Here's an anecdote, which is what prompted me to write this post. I once took a black friend of mine, a West Ham supporter, to the derby versus the Rovers. He just wanted to come along and experience it. In that game, Rovers fielded a black player, let's say Devon White, don't recall who. Whenever he got the ball, particularly when shooting towards the east end - monkey-chants erupted in the east end. And guess what. My black friend joined in.  I nudged him and said, What the **** are you doing? He shrugged and replied, Trying to put him off aren't I?

Yes that really happened, and I felt very embarrassed by it. Personally I never did the monkey-chant, ever, and I was flummoxed that my black pal joined in.

Why? How?

Afterwards, we both put it down to a kind of 'mob rule'. It suggests that when a certain number start, more automatically join in. I think my black pal just wanted to 'fit in' with the crowd. Maybe he felt singled out as one black face among so many white, and wanted to look like and feel like one of the boys. An interesting take, isn't it? Because although this chant is taken as deeply racist, he didn't actually mean it as racist. I mean, how the hell could he, he's black himself! It would probably never happen today from a black spectator, not when everyone is being watched and judged for everything they do. Remember those were different days back then. A different consciousness existed. No social media, no repercussions, and nobody really cared what you did.

Back in those days, I'd suspect that a decent majority of the east end weren't racist either. Mob rule is/was thing, and played a big role in this. The supporters who did join in probably wouldn't monkey-chant a black person in the street for example! It’s purely an aspect of human behaviour when observed across large, complex systems. Riots work the same way. Thankfully in football the mob grew up. Evidently it's yet to do so in Italian football. But we should remember that in this light, the statement from Inter contains at least some validity – there ARE other facets to this phenomenon beyond just racism.

Racism in football is different now. It isn't the mob anymore in the UK, it's coming from a small albeit hateful minority. Which makes it more sinister. It's likely to be genuine racism in this case. But despite what the sensation-driven mainstream media gobshites say, it isn't at epidemic proportions though. A few twitter tw_a_ts are nothing compared to the tides of chanting, calling, swearing that filled the terraces and grandstands of yesteryear. Racism of course has by no means been eradicated from football in the UK. Not at all. But it's a LOT better than it was.

Whatever the case, and sorry for the long-windedness, monkey-chanting must be stamped out. Whatever skewed human psychology is behind it, whether that is racist or not, monkey-chanting is received by the players as a racist slur, always - and their feelings are paramount. It's time for Italian football to get it's house in order.

 

Racist behaviour IS racism. ‘Going along with the mob’ doesn’t change that. 

[Northern Red]

On 04/09/2019 at 16:00, Red-Robbo said:

I love Italy, but there's no more racist country in Western Europe.

It's the only place still where you can talk to some well-educated seemingly cultured person and have them tell you: "The trouble with London is there's too many blacks."

Spain isn't far behind it.

[swanker]

2 hours ago, bredwood said:

I didn't say it was the reason if you bothered to read my post properly. I said it was one of the reasons and I agree it is a minor one compared to other causes such as the reduction in police funding and the shrinking of local authority budgets so that youth services have been shredded.

The point I was alluding to was that you get politicians such as Gove admitting they sniffed cocaine at social events without bothering to acknowledge the consequences.

Oh, that’s alright then!

Thing is, I grew up on Stapleton Rd and we used to do the east Bristol ting down there. 

Night time was no time to be in that there neighbourhood!

[Leveller]

On 04/09/2019 at 22:25, Chairman Mao said:

Thank god for that. Back them it was a bombed out hell hole with soggy chips and miky tea, a drab grey air and declining population. Not saying it is perfect today, far from it, but the change is not a bad thing in many respects. 

Racism and nationalism do sometimes go hand in hand. Not always, but it is often easy to define 'them vs. us' through the context of the nation state and its borders. This is something that has happened throughout history, especially in Europe between 1850-1945.

Great thread btw, some really good debate. 

It really wasn’t. The chips and tea were no different from now!

Seriously though, it makes me laugh when Britain in the 70s is portrayed in the media by youngsters  who weren’t even born then.

Howcome in the Sixties “Swinging London” was supposed to be at the forefront of world popular culture? Britain didn’t suddenly go downhill in the seventies. Everywhere changes of course and most of the world is more advanced and prosperous than it was then. There were problems, but so there are today - generally everyday life hasn’t changed that much.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Another Inter fans group has sent a letter.

Quote

After the racist abuse from Cagliari fans and even more shocking Inter ultras defending them, other Nerazzurri supporters wrote an open letter to Romelu Lukaku.

The incident and above all the aftermath sent shockwaves around the world, hitting the New York Times and the front page of The Guardian, among others.

What stunned everyone was the open letter written by a group of Inter ultras in the Curva Nord, who insisted to Lukaku that the insults were not “racism,” but rather to be taken as a compliment of how much the opposition fans feared him and were willing to go in order to put him off his stride.

Now a different Inter ultras group has released an open letter to Lukaku countering that argument, proving it was only a minority that would defend this behaviour.

“Hi Romelu, the statement from the Curva was real, you genuinely read that, some people really did believe it and had the courage to publish it. Really,” wrote the group on Ranocchiate blog.

“However, we want you to know that those were not INTERISTI. We’re not talking about politics, because you’ll find people from the left, right, centre or those who don’t know or care about politics.

“We are talking about the values of being an Inter fan and a human being, which guarantee the contents of that letter was unadulterated filth.

“We want you to know that you are not going crazy: those noises you heard were not just ‘boo’ but genuine monkey impressions. In Italy, you should know, there are many who consider black people to be monkeys.

“And no, it is NOT A FORM OF RESPECT AND FEAR TO RECEIVE THEM.

“And no, it is not a way of supporting the team, because having them play behind closed doors the weekend after creates more problems than ever.

“And no, shouting ‘damn n***o’ is not banter.

“And yes, racism is still a huge problem in Italy, despite what they may tell you.

“And no, don’t stop this battle you had the courage to start, just because someone is trying to avoid punishment.

“We have had season tickets for time immemorial, but – and we hope we’re talking for all INTERISTI here, we’d prefer the stadium to be closed rather than allow something this disgusting to go unpunished.

“Inter is #NOTFOREVERYONE”

https://www.football-italia.net/143919/inter-fans-send-new-lukaku-letter

That one is more encouraging!