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roydo

Could LJ cut it in the Prem?

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Hear me out.  Everton fan by birth, City "supporter" after living here for 50 years ish. My limited posting history will confirm that credential. (Tom Ritchie was my postie for years ffs).

But do you serial watchers of City as opposed to this long lapsed attendee of Ashton Gate think the boss has the talent and/or stones to move up if, 

say, for example, Everton decided that Silva was not all that? 

 

For the record, nothing would thrill me more if he got City up to the PL, so not starting a fight, just a genuine question. (Last time I saw City play, was the Man City games, and the team did brilliant imo.)

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It helps all managers if they are at the right club and backed, both financially and time-wise.  Whether that’s with City or by him getting selected or choosing the right club, he has as good a chance as plenty of others.

For me his biggest challenge will be working with players who think they know best, irrespective of their ability....and challenge his playing career.  It’s not fair, but players are very influential.

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As Fevs says, depends on who he was to manage? A seasoned Premier League club like Everton (as is your example), sure, he wouldn’t get them relegated but would he be expected to turn Everton into a top four challenging club, doubtful. 

If he was to be in the Premier League with a Cardiff or Huddersfield, I think he’d struggle to keep them up, not because of his ability but anyone would struggle to keep clubs like that up.

He would also need to know that he’s going to be given time to implement his philosophy on any given club. He has been backed here, not just in the transfer market but by having his off field wishes met. Training ground, facilities & technology that he’s wanted.

If, like with so many clubs, he’d be out on his ear after 6 months of average results, then he’d be the wrong guy for most clubs because he wants & likes to be able to change everything from the ground up, he’s had that support & backing here & a few seasons ago many claimed that he wasn’t fit enough to do the job but luckily for us our owner believed in the project he was implementing.

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Personally I think the only chance he has of managing in the PL is if he stays with us. I really can`t see any other club being prepared to take the risk on an unproven manager when so much is at stake. That`s not to say he couldn`t do it, just that I can`t see anyone giving him the chance to find out.

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Very hard to say!

Hes got the right media persona to do well in the Prem but if he took us up and did well, kept us up and played attractive football then he may get a chance at a bigger club. 

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12 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Personally I think the only chance he has of managing in the PL is if he stays with us. I really can`t see any other club being prepared to take the risk on an unproven manager when so much is at stake. That`s not to say he couldn`t do it, just that I can`t see anyone giving him the chance to find out.

Is the right answer IMHO.

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21 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Personally I think the only chance he has of managing in the PL is if he stays with us. I really can`t see any other club being prepared to take the risk on an unproven manager when so much is at stake. That`s not to say he couldn`t do it, just that I can`t see anyone giving him the chance to find out.

Many wouldn't have given Eddie Howe a a job in the Prem until he got Bournemouth there and kept them there. Sadly that's pretty much the only route to get a Prem job if your an English manager these days.

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2 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Many wouldn't have given Eddie Howe a a job in the Prem until he got Bournemouth there and kept them there. Sadly that's pretty much the only route to get a Prem job if your an English manager these days.

True. He is like LJ in many ways given his connection with the club over many years. I also think Bournemouth don`t have wild expectations and are realistic about what they can achieve - much like I hope we would be if we were to get there.

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As everyone has said, he is at the right club here with a board who will not sack him. Ever. As you will know LJ has a habit of going on long losing runs of eight or more games , and that's not just here but at previous clubs. If that were to happen in the Prem, bearing in mind he would be at one of the lower end clubs, so it easily could, his feet wouldnt touch the floor. Most Prem clubs will tell you that relegation simply isn't an option. 

That brings us on to the other question. Would he take the job if offered ? At the present time, while his stock is at its highest, I am certain he wouldnt, unless it was a glamour club, which to be honest , is not going to happen. He also owes our board at least one show of loyalty, for the times they stuck with him during the bad runs, and I believe that, that alone would make him reject an approach from a lower end Prem club. After that, unless we get promoted in the next two years or so, if we remain there or thereabouts , some club will be tempted and I think he may well jump. If we go backwards into mid table mediocrity, then his stock will fall, and the offers won,t come then.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

Think he'll go up with us, or end up somewhere obscure like Germany or Portugal.

I fancy Germany to nail a top four place but LJ will have to work miracles to get Portugal into the europa league spots

 

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LJ would fail and soon be out on his ear at most, if not all PL clubs.  That is because many want instant success. I doubt that he would be able to deal with the big egos at some of the top clubs either.

The problem is the money.  A 3 year contract in the prem could set him up for life financially, but I also think it would finish his managerial career.

I think it would be better for both LJ and BCFC if he stays here and hopefully gets us promoted.  If we keep missing out, eventually, the board will have to consider a change, but that is probably some way off as things stand.

If we do get promoted then that will increase his stock and he may have his head turned by a very big offer which we will need to fend off.

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4 hours ago, roydo said:

Hear me out.  Everton fan by birth, City "supporter" after living here for 50 years ish. My limited posting history will confirm that credential. (Tom Ritchie was my postie for years ffs).

But do you serial watchers of City as opposed to this long lapsed attendee of Ashton Gate think the boss has the talent and/or stones to move up if, 

say, for example, Everton decided that Silva was not all that? 

 

For the record, nothing would thrill me more if he got City up to the PL, so not starting a fight, just a genuine question. (Last time I saw City play, was the Man City games, and the team did brilliant imo.)

Can I let you know in about 15 months time..? 😉👍

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2 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

LJ would fail and soon be out on his ear at most, if not all PL clubs.  That is because many want instant success. I doubt that he would be able to deal with the big egos at some of the top clubs either.

The problem is the money.  A 3 year contract in the prem could set him up for life financially, but I also think it would finish his managerial career.

I think it would be better for both LJ and BCFC if he stays here and hopefully gets us promoted.  If we keep missing out, eventually, the board will have to consider a change, but that is probably some way off as things stand.

If we do get promoted then that will increase his stock and he may have his head turned by a very big offer which we will need to fend off.

LJ is an astute person. He's financially set up for life as it is. He has a property portfolio etc. I don't think money would be the driving factor for him if offered a Prem job.

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16 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

LJ is an astute person. He's financially set up for life as it is. He has a property portfolio etc. I don't think money would be the driving factor for him if offered a Prem job.

I guess that all depends on how much extra a Prem job could earn him. If it doubled his income, some would say he'd be a fool not to take it.

I hope he stays here and achieves the dream. He and our owner deserve it.

 

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I'm sure he could double his income at a Prem club but if he is only in the job a quarter of the time, then he would still earn twice as much here at City.  Thats the point.

 

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There is absolutely no reason why LJ couldn't go on to be a success in the premier league (hopefully with us!).

I can see him reaching a sort of brendan rogers at Swansea type level. He certainly comes across as more progressive than a fair few managers currently in the premier league and with a decent calibre of player i think he would do ok.

I think one of his intial problems at City was that the players werent good enough to implement his methods and he has had to reign them in a bit. 

Edited by cider-manc

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I think he'd do ok with us in the Prem, but managing top players at a bigger club may be beyond him at present, without SL backing him up he'd be out the first time he hit one of his losing streaks

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12 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

Personally I think the only chance he has of managing in the PL is if he stays with us. I really can`t see any other club being prepared to take the risk on an unproven manager when so much is at stake. That`s not to say he couldn`t do it, just that I can`t see anyone giving him the chance to find out.

Exactly my view.

When I read the OP I assumed that the question was aimed at LJ managing in the PL as City manager. 

Im not sure why but I often compare City to Burnley and under Dyche they went up to the PL and came straight down only to bounce back up the following season.

Listening to an interview with Dyche not long ago he commented on how the relegation from the PL really helped them when they got straight back up because in season they were back in the Championship the entire club including himself and the playing squad ‘matured’ and now they’re an established PL club.

I can see LJ and the club doing something similar.

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6 hours ago, RedLionLad said:

I guess that all depends on how much extra a Prem job could earn him. If it doubled his income, some would say he'd be a fool not to take it.

I hope he stays here and achieves the dream. He and our owner deserve it.

 

Managers don't tent to earn an awful lot, I've never felt comfortable that players earn more than the manager, get the manager is the 1st to get the blame when things aren't going good. Was it Sir Alex who had it written into his contract that he would be paid more than the highest earner? 

I think LJ values his life in Bristol and his family life here highly, for example I couldn't see him moving to Boro or Sunderland, just to double his money. 

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I personally believe the argument of good players making good managers and players who haven't had a playing career at the highest level not commanding respect of the players is quickly becoming very dated. I know it was argued vehemently on here with LJ's arrival that he didn't have the playing experience to go on and be a success here, let alone a premier league manager.

The problem with this argument, and why I think it's increasingly irrelevant is that the process to becoming a manager has changed so much in the last decade. The courses, badges, information, research, experts, technology etc have all come on so quickly, the days of a player needing to have played under the best managers to have this knowledge, is gone.

Some of the best teachers aren't always at the top of their field performance wise, they just understand their subject in every detail and importantly have the skills to communicate it on. Same with football managers now IMO. A person with the right attributes now has all the resources to become a top manager.

Where being a big name helps is that it gets your foot in the door quicker, often at a higher level. See Lampard for example. For every excellent player turned excellent manager like Pep, is an average player turned excellent manager like Jurgen. Klopp spent 3 seasons getting Mainz (where he played) promoted from the second tier of German football and then a few seasons of top flight survival and a relegation before getting the Dortmund job, where we all started hearing about him. Guardiola on the other had only had one season with Barcelona B's before being handed the first team.

In fact, the list of managers, at both Premier league and Championship level, who didn't have glittering playing careers at the highest level is getting ever bigger: Graham Potter, Dean Smith, Chris Wilder, Daniel Farke, Hasenhuttl, Marcelo Bielsa, Danny Cowley, Alex Neil, Steve Cooper, Mark Warburton, Pep Clotet, Garry Monk....list goes on.

So with some of those names above in mind....LJ? He has, and is open to, all the resources they have, so if he has the attributes, there is no reason why not. IMO he has shown many of those attributes here over the last 3 seasons. The key question some ask is can he manage top players? Well plenty proves he could, this season the invigoration of Afobe, the return of Kalas, Palmer and Dasilva. An ambitious O'Dowda signing on. This suggests the players working with him believe he can progress them and BCFC is a club they can develop at. Previous seasons, Reid, Bryan, Flint, Pack, Kelly, Webster. All improved under LJ. 

Underpinned by the backing and support he is also afforded here by the senior management, there is IMO no reason he couldn't command the respect of top players in the premier league, were we to get there one day.

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1 hour ago, Up The City! said:

Managers don't tent to earn an awful lot, I've never felt comfortable that players earn more than the manager, get the manager is the 1st to get the blame when things aren't going good. Was it Sir Alex who had it written into his contract that he would be paid more than the highest earner? 

I think LJ values his life in Bristol and his family life here highly, for example I couldn't see him moving to Boro or Sunderland, just to double his money. 

According to the post match interview, he doesn’t live in Bristol, actually lives near Stoke

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12 minutes ago, Henry said:

According to the post match interview, he doesn’t live in Bristol, actually lives near Stoke

More like Bradley Stoke.......

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4 hours ago, Up The City! said:

Managers don't tent to earn an awful lot, I've never felt comfortable that players earn more than the manager, get the manager is the 1st to get the blame when things aren't going good. Was it Sir Alex who had it written into his contract that he would be paid more than the highest earner? 

I think LJ values his life in Bristol and his family life here highly, for example I couldn't see him moving to Boro or Sunderland, just to double his money. 

How much is ‘ an awful lot ‘ ?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I personally believe the argument of good players making good managers and players who haven't had a playing career at the highest level not commanding respect of the players is quickly becoming very dated. I know it was argued vehemently on here with LJ's arrival that he didn't have the playing experience to go on and be a success here, let alone a premier league manager.

The problem with this argument, and why I think it's increasingly irrelevant is that the process to becoming a manager has changed so much in the last decade. The courses, badges, information, research, experts, technology etc have all come on so quickly, the days of a player needing to have played under the best managers to have this knowledge, is gone.

Some of the best teachers aren't always at the top of their field performance wise, they just understand their subject in every detail and importantly have the skills to communicate it on. Same with football managers now IMO. A person with the right attributes now has all the resources to become a top manager.

Where being a big name helps is that it gets your foot in the door quicker, often at a higher level. See Lampard for example. For every excellent player turned excellent manager like Pep, is an average player turned excellent manager like Jurgen. Klopp spent 3 seasons getting Mainz (where he played) promoted from the second tier of German football and then a few seasons of top flight survival and a relegation before getting the Dortmund job, where we all started hearing about him. Guardiola on the other had only had one season with Barcelona B's before being handed the first team.

In fact, the list of managers, at both Premier league and Championship level, who didn't have glittering playing careers at the highest level is getting ever bigger: Graham Potter, Dean Smith, Chris Wilder, Daniel Farke, Hasenhuttl, Marcelo Bielsa, Danny Cowley, Alex Neil, Steve Cooper, Mark Warburton, Pep Clotet, Garry Monk....list goes on.

So with some of those names above in mind....LJ? He has, and is open to, all the resources they have, so if he has the attributes, there is no reason why not. IMO he has shown many of those attributes here over the last 3 seasons. The key question some ask is can he manage top players? Well plenty proves he could, this season the invigoration of Afobe, the return of Kalas, Palmer and Dasilva. An ambitious O'Dowda signing on. This suggests the players working with him believe he can progress them and BCFC is a club they can develop at. Previous seasons, Reid, Bryan, Flint, Pack, Kelly, Webster. All improved under LJ. 

Underpinned by the backing and support he is also afforded here by the senior management, there is IMO no reason he couldn't command the respect of top players in the premier league, were we to get there one day.

LJ can handle the big name players as those same players would be checked out for the right ‘ DNA ‘ before joining the club.

Add into the equation the added experience that he has acquired here , his cup runs and top half finishes and the bloke is no longer some lower league rookie .

 

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I’m sure he will get the opportunity in his career to show he can handle it - hopefully with city. I reckon he would do alright. He has improved his decision making over the last couple of years and is less bullshitty than he was. 

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

More like Bradley Stoke.......

 

3 hours ago, Henry said:

 

0E2AC9F1-F8F2-4B2D-94E9-58E23AF9C775.jpeg

I heard him say that also and was a bit confused. Surely he doesnt commute from Nantwich? I've seen him around clifton village and the downs a few times during the summer break...

His LinkedIn (I know?!) also states Nantwich...

 

 

Screenshot 2019-09-16 at 14.41.54.png

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2 minutes ago, RedSA said:

 

I heard him say that also and was a bit confused. Surely he doesnt commute from Nantwich? I've seen him around clifton village and the downs a few times during the summer break...

His LinkedIn (I know?!) also states Nantwich...

 

 

Screenshot 2019-09-16 at 14.41.54.png

I’m also confused. Maybe he moved his family up to where his missus came from and lives down here during the week. Mind you he couldn’t go home at the weekends could he - so yeah. Confusing

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LJ owns property in Clifton. 

I worked in the village for years and he was frequently seen around as was Joe Jordon.

Failand is a short drive over the bridge so its pretty clear that LJ resides there when he needs to. His wife and daughter may well live in Nantwich as that’s wheres she from and he commutes ‘home’ when work allows.

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So Lee Tomlin gets  stick because he wouldn’t move down from Leicester and yet Lee Johnson can live  in Nantwich which has too be at least a three hour drive from Bristol ? 

It doesn’t make any sense. 

He must surely have a place in Bristol. 

In any case is LJ ever home ?

The bloke’s à workaholic. 

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LJ is keeping his place in Cheshire for when the Man City job comes up.

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19 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

As everyone has said, he is at the right club here with a board who will not sack him. Ever. As you will know LJ has a habit of going on long losing runs of eight or more games , and that's not just here but at previous clubs. If that were to happen in the Prem, bearing in mind he would be at one of the lower end clubs, so it easily could, his feet wouldnt touch the floor. Most Prem clubs will tell you that relegation simply isn't an option. 

That brings us on to the other question. Would he take the job if offered ? At the present time, while his stock is at its highest, I am certain he wouldnt, unless it was a glamour club, which to be honest , is not going to happen. He also owes our board at least one show of loyalty, for the times they stuck with him during the bad runs, and I believe that, that alone would make him reject an approach from a lower end Prem club. After that, unless we get promoted in the next two years or so, if we remain there or thereabouts , some club will be tempted and I think he may well jump. If we go backwards into mid table mediocrity, then his stock will fall, and the offers won,t come then.

Is twice ever a habit?

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2 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I’m also confused. Maybe he moved his family up to where his missus came from and lives down here during the week. Mind you he couldn’t go home at the weekends could he - so yeah. Confusing

Yeah, most people that commute that sort of distance would be with the proviso that they're home for weekends or something, which LJ obviously cant do - odd one. 

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3 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I’m also confused. Maybe he moved his family up to where his missus came from and lives down here during the week. Mind you he couldn’t go home at the weekends could he - so yeah. Confusing

Just had a thought...he's mentioned a few times in interviews about the abuse and death threats (?) he received during that losing streak as people had found out his address. Maybe they thought it was better for his wife and daughter to be away from the potential of all that stuff, hence them living where she grew up?

Edited by RedSA

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2 hours ago, RedSA said:

Just had a thought...he's mentioned a few times in interviews about the abuse and death threats (?) he received during that losing streak as people had found out his address. Maybe they thought it was better for his wife and daughter to be away from the potential of all that stuff, hence them living where she grew up?

We know he has a property portfolio...one of his ‘homes’ perhaps. 

He might live in different places depending on time of year, school holidays, weekends etc. 

Whats a good Johnsonism for that?

House fluid?

Property permutable?

Commutative living?

Where’s Mark Ashton when you need him...

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Perhaps we'll find out next season.

Promotion could be on the cards this season - even in a top 2 spot.

From what I've seen, LJ will be just fine in the Premier League - he will emulate Eddie Howe.

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23 hours ago, HiddenGem7 said:

I'm sure he could double his income at a Prem club but if he is only in the job a quarter of the time, then he would still earn twice as much here at City.  Thats the point.

 

They pay his contract up if they sack him so that’s irrelevant 

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13 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

He hasn't cut it/made it/proved himself  in league 1 with oldham or barnsley or championship yet.... So id say no

An unpopular view above for sure but Championship managers tend to make the step up when they have delivered.

If we make the playoffs this season but don't make it, then maybe so, but I would have thought that so far, the most interest in LJ from Prem clubs would have been during the League Cup run as we have faded the last couple of seasons and from the outside looking in, perhaps its felt that LJ wasm't able to do anything about that.

I think City is the best club he will ever manage.

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13 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

He hasn't cut it/made it/proved himself  in league 1 with oldham or barnsley or championship yet.... So id say no

Think that's pretty unfair. Year on year progression and most seasons we've lost our best players in the summer. I would say he has safely proved himself now. 

I think it's reasonable to expect top 6 this season if we are to keep progressing, so that'll be the test. Considering the injuries we've had and the frantic end of the window though, he's done really well with a depleted squad so far this season.

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3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

They pay his contract up if they sack him so that’s irrelevant 

I'm not quite sure it works like that with managers. There may be a settlement agreed but I always believed they would continue to be paid until either their contract would be up, or until they take another job. 

These days in the managers contract it will be written how much they will revive if they are sacked, in most cases it would be a maximum of 12 months, even if they have 3 years left on their deal.

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15 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

He hasn't cut it/made it/proved himself  in league 1 with oldham or barnsley or championship yet.... So id say no

Where as this is massively harsh...I can kind of get your point 

No one can argue LJ hasnt done a decent enough job here at Bristol City. Especially when you talk of 'Bristol City standards' that have historically been set down the years ....

Has he done enough to warrant a move to the Prem? I don't think so. Not yet anyway 

He has proved himself to be a very good coach at this level, but I'd argue managerially he still shows huge vulnerabilities and at times his game plan / management has been poor 

This season though so far he has done brilliantly . Will it continue? I hope so. I really do. Let's be honest though....we all know another one of LJs famous streaks could be just around the corner....

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