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Diedhiou v Semenyo


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3 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

Looks to me like Semenyo could teach Diedhiou a thing or two about playing up top.

LJ big on his stats, I hope he notices the difference between these two.

 

Yes, teenager Semenyo, with a few minutes of football and no goals (league) should be teaching established Chamionship goal scorer, Diedhiou all about what he should be doing. 

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6 hours ago, Chris_Brown said:

And Diedhiou is still being asked to perform a role he is not suited to, and still got us a goal. 

He is not a target man. Doesn't matter that he's big. That's not his game. 

He's very big, tall, wins headers, holds it up using his body strength with his back to goal. I'm not sure what he is if he isn't a target man?

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7 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

What is his game ?

 

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

He's very big, tall, wins headers, holds it up using his body strength with his back to goal. I'm not sure what he is if he isn't a target man?

Yes, he does all of those to some effect and obviously is scoring a decent number of goals at this level too.  

He's been asked to play here as the target man, but I think we'd get a lot more out of him if we played him on the shoulder of the defender (rather than with his back to goal), making runs into space or at the defence with his head up. Utilise his strengths in a different way. His unpredictability, his workrate, his aerial ability would all be more effective in my opinion.

The problem is, it doesn't fit in the formation  we've been playing during his time here, because he needs to be up front with someone who is going to take some of the physical toll from Championship defenders - Afobe, for example rather than Weimann. I think at times during Diedhiou's spell here we have had forwards who he could have formed a decent partnership with (Djuric, Taylor) but during that time he was played up front alone. 

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I am going to defend Fam as well because although it is clear his game isn’t suited to playing as a single target man, he has carried on playing it without complaint and for all the negative comments on here, his goal record at this level is actually reasonably good. He started on Saturday and scored. That’s what you need from a striker.

As for Semenyo, the build up and link up play is good but by contrast he needs goals ASAP. Much like Matty Taylor, a forward who doesn’t score is of only limited use, however much else they do on the pitch.

Edited by Dr Balls
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Correct me if I'm wrong but my analysis of the above is as follows:

Worryingly, neither player gets touches in the box.

They got one chance each, Diedhiou scored, Semenyo didn't. 

Semenyo's passing is better, he loses the ball less.

Neither player won headers.

Semenyo didn't take his man on. Diedhiou did twice and it worked once.

Just seems to reflect what I remember from the game; that neither player looked dangerous, and Diedhiou was wasteful but scored. 

 

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10 hours ago, Matty_Taylor_is_god said:

Remind me how many goals fammy has scored for us compared to Semenyo... I get that Semenyo hasn't played as much and is a youngster but Fammys goal record for us is actually pretty good so I don't really understand the constant bashing

Should have scored a lot more.

As Jamie McAllister said ;

"The big thing was, we looked at the stats, our final-third entries were up there, chances created in the final third were up there it was just our conversion rate and not taking the chances especially clear-cut ones," he said.

As Diedhiou missed the most clear cut chances in the division its obvious who he was talking about and the scramble to get a striker in. 

He has his strong points, he's up there as one of the best headers of a ball I've seen for City for example and I've seen him score exactly the same goal as he did on Saturday but his all round game isn't good enough imo. 

 

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Famara is really struggling, don’t know whether this is confidence, technique or the role he’s being asked to play. He scored on Saturday but other than that was a passenger and liability all game. Back to goal the whole time and his touch reminds me of big Enoch’s. Surely Antoine must be edging ahead of him in LJ’s plans now. 

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4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

He's very big, tall, wins headers, holds it up using his body strength with his back to goal. I'm not sure what he is if he isn't a target man?

That's the role he's asked to play but as @Chris_Brown said, it doesn't appear to come naturally to him. He's very unorthodox and in some ways plays like a smaller man. 

Pound for pound he's not particularly strong for his size either. I think people sometimes make the mistake of assuming all forwards over 6ft of African descent are always going to be physical behemoths. 

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8 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

I think the big factor is both of their games are completely different from each other. I honestly don’t see Semenyo ever being able to play as Diédhiou is being asked to play, after the first 5 minutes Semenyo would be completely downhearted & wondering what the hell he’s supposed to do for the other 85 minutes.

It isn’t as simple as let’s lump the ball 40-70 yards to a players head constantly & he’ll happily carry on trying to reel these balls in while the opposition stand there & let him try, he has to do this while being marked by one or the other or both 6ft+, 14 stone centre halves who are pushing, pulling, kicking & jumping all over him for these 50/50 balls & this is going on for the entirety of the game & he’s not allowed to run 20-30 yards for each lump upfield to then just walk around after managing to do whatever he’s done with the ball, he’s then expected to do what everyone else expects him to do & run another 30-40 yards to get his ‘lazy’ arse into the penalty area where he’s expected to fight it out with his two mates from the opposition for another 50/50 ball (at best) & if he’s not got into the penalty area he’s not doing his job!

He’s one man probably doing 3 men’s jobs when you consider the defensive work he does on top of being physically abused by the opposition for 90 minutes.

@Davefevs while your graphics look wonderful, I get confused by arrows making pictures of men’s anatomy so do you have the stats (not arrows) that show how far each player ran / runs over a game / season & how much of that is done at what would be considered a sprint? Because I’d be shocked if Diédhiou isn’t up there with the most miles on the clock, especially while carrying one or two physical defenders on his back. I’d just be interested to see figures because there are a few people that claim Diédhiou is ‘lazy’! Which I just don’t understand, maybe my work ethic is different?

No!

suspect that data costs a lot of money!  @hodge do you have it?

I don’t think Diedhiou is lazy, but from my eye I don’t see him running at full tilt often enough. Perhaps his running style is deceiving. 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No!

suspect that data costs a lot of money!  @hodge do you have it?

I don’t think Diedhiou is lazy, but from my eye I don’t see him running at full tilt often enough. Perhaps his running style is deceiving. 

Dave any chance of seeing Massengo 1st half vs 2nd half stats?

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No!

suspect that data costs a lot of money!  @hodge do you have it?

I don’t think Diedhiou is lazy, but from my eye I don’t see him running at full tilt often enough. Perhaps his running style is deceiving. 

Knowing Johnson's approach, I would expect it is intentional that he doesn't run at full tilt that often. I don't think LJ would tolerate one member of the team not pulling his weight.

I would suspect then that they've identified something, perhaps in Diedhiou's cardio statistics, that indicates to them perhaps he's not got the physical capability to put in 100% maximum effort in running throughout the game. 

Some players (Reid, Weimann, Wagstaff) are obviously genetically built for having extreme cardio, others (Diedhiou, Trundle, JET) aren't. 

I would suspect this is probably the explanation - otherwise I doubt he'd be in the team.

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@BCFC Richard as per your DM

E275ABA0-5B9C-4CC6-9578-82FD6FFD5EB6.thumb.jpeg.a40b628ca80c24d59160109fb815aed9.jpeg

1EEB632C-CA3C-4D39-A56B-D078814542EC.thumb.jpeg.b5b5e2ec1ae30416a68f326d37de305c.jpeg

Have I read this wrong, or did neither Diedhiou nor Semenyo win an aerial duel the entire game except for the goal (cross not long ball)?

Shows how laughable our long ball at Diedhiou tactic at home last season was really doesn't it if so, and this was against the worst team in the league

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I do like Fammy, he shows a lot of heart and desire and obviously cares, he’s certainly not lazy.

He is very good at plucking the ball out of the air whether with his feet or chest, the problem is he then takes 2-3 touches to get the ball in a position to pass and you don’t get that luxury in the Championship.

I think the introduction of Afobe has now highlighted that Fammy isn’t as good as we hope he would be which is a shame.

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44 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's the role he's asked to play but as @Chris_Brown said, it doesn't appear to come naturally to him. He's very unorthodox and in some ways plays like a smaller man. 

Pound for pound he's not particularly strong for his size either. I think people sometimes make the mistake of assuming all forwards over 6ft of African descent are always going to be physical behemoths. 

He's an awkward player, and will be a handful for defenders to deal with and one I suspect they don't relish.

The way that benefits the team is when his presence pulls defenders out of position, creating space for others. However, that benefit is countered as all too often when he fails to make the most of possession - usually because of poor control. Also, looking at him as a striker, while he has a decent scoring record for us, there's no doubting that he misses too many gilt edged chances - which you cant afford at this level. While Afobe has missed a few good chances, would Famara have put away all the chances that Afobe has?

Having said all of that, for much of  the last two seasons he's been asked to perform a thankless task as a lone striker.

 

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25 minutes ago, downendcity said:

He's an awkward player, and will be a handful for defenders to deal with and one I suspect they don't relish.

The way that benefits the team is when his presence pulls defenders out of position, creating space for others. However, that benefit is countered as all too often when he fails to make the most of possession - usually because of poor control. Also, looking at him as a striker, while he has a decent scoring record for us, there's no doubting that he misses too many gilt edged chances - which you cant afford at this level. While Afobe has missed a few good chances, would Famara have put away all the chances that Afobe has?

Having said all of that, for much of  the last two seasons he's been asked to perform a thankless task as a lone striker.

 

I think Afobe is undoubtedly the more natural goalscorer and a better overall player. We needed to upgrade though, same we you hope we've looked to upgrade Pack with Nagy. 

I think Diedhiou definitely has a role to play though, he pops up with goals and is clearly a handful to play against. 

I also like his attitude - he doesn't appear to be fazed from being out the team and enjoys the teams success just as much. 

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4 hours ago, Chris_Brown said:

 

Yes, he does all of those to some effect and obviously is scoring a decent number of goals at this level too.  

He's been asked to play here as the target man, but I think we'd get a lot more out of him if we played him on the shoulder of the defender (rather than with his back to goal), making runs into space or at the defence with his head up. Utilise his strengths in a different way. His unpredictability, his workrate, his aerial ability would all be more effective in my opinion.

The problem is, it doesn't fit in the formation  we've been playing during his time here, because he needs to be up front with someone who is going to take some of the physical toll from Championship defenders - Afobe, for example rather than Weimann. I think at times during Diedhiou's spell here we have had forwards who he could have formed a decent partnership with (Djuric, Taylor) but during that time he was played up front alone. 

I thought his best games for us was when up top on his own in some of the away wins last season. Was a handful for defenses and gave Weimann and O'Dowda space to attack on the flanks.

His best game season before imo was home against Fulham, a team that at the time were beating everyone. We got a 1-1, Fam up top on his own was superb and I remember thinking our best player.

When in a partnership with Weimann he was mainly poor. When in a partnership with Taylor or with Palmer in behind he was usually poor. Djuric that one Birmingham game he was good but it was proper long ball tactics that we don't usually do.

I'd even say his partnership with Reid was not always great. It required a lot of linking up with midfield along with Reid. And he looked so clumsy dropping off. On the shoulder i don't think he's that good as he hasn't the movement or acceleration compared to someone like Afobe.

352 may be the answer though for Fam to successfully form a partnership with another striker, as the 3 in midfield may mean Fam stays up top and does not have to drop back too much. 442 so far has not worked imo when Fam plays up top. Be interesting to see what happens.

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45 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think Afobe is undoubtedly the more natural goalscorer and a better overall player. We needed to upgrade though, same we you hope we've looked to upgrade Pack with Nagy. 

I think Diedhiou definitely has a role to play though, he pops up with goals and is clearly a handful to play against. 

I also like his attitude - he doesn't appear to be fazed from being out the team and enjoys the teams success just as much. 

I actually think he is ‘ fazed ‘ and who could blame him ? 

He’s gone from being ‘ undroppable ‘ to having questions asked as to his future at the club .

This is where his character is shining through, he’s not showing his hurt or throwing his toys out of the pram and I have the utmost respect for him and his comportment.

He has been asked to change his game in the last two seasons which he has done with no small success .

FD is not the best centre forward we’ve ever had at the club but let’s give the guy the credit he deserves and get off his back .

( not you Phileas , I’m talking generally to the ‘ supporters ‘ who give him a hard time because he’s not Pèle ) 

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13 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I think Semenyo needs a goal to set him off.

Loads of potential there and a lot of games to play, he should push in front of Diedhiou this season imo.

Was just about to say similar. All he needs is a goal and I'm sure his confidence will rocket when that happens. He and we just need a bit of patience with him and I'm sure we will be rewarded.

As for Fammy I like him and I'm sure he is trying to work hard at his game, (first touch etc) I remember Cheesley getting some stick when he came to us from Norwich and he came good. Glad he is scoring vital goals though. Between the two ? Semenyo needs a chance for that goal spark and I would just about go for him. Difficult one really but with Afobe coming back in they will probably be benched anyway. LD will go and prove me wrong now.

Edited by robinreliant
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13 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

aI think the big factor is both of their games are completely different from each other. I honestly don’t see Semenyo ever being able to play as Diédhiou is being asked to play, after the first 5 minutes Semenyo would be completely downhearted & wondering what the hell he’s supposed to do for the other 85 minutes.

It isn’t as simple as let’s lump the ball 40-70 yards to a players head constantly & he’ll happily carry on trying to reel these balls in while the opposition stand there & let him try, he has to do this while being marked by one or the other or both 6ft+, 14 stone centre halves who are pushing, pulling, kicking & jumping all over him for these 50/50 balls & this is going on for the entirety of the game & he’s not allowed to run 20-30 yards for each lump upfield to then just walk around after managing to do whatever he’s done with the ball, he’s then expected to do what everyone else expects him to do & run another 30-40 yards to get his ‘lazy’ arse into the penalty area where he’s expected to fight it out with his two mates from the opposition for another 50/50 ball (at best) & if he’s not got into the penalty area he’s not doing his job!

He’s one man probably doing 3 men’s jobs when you consider the defensive work he does on top of being physically abused by the opposition for 90 minutes.

@Davefevs while your graphics look wonderful, I get confused by arrows making pictures of men’s anatomy so do you have the stats (not arrows) that show how far each player ran / runs over a game / season & how much of that is done at what would be considered a sprint? Because I’d be shocked if Diédhiou isn’t up there with the most miles on the clock, especially while carrying one or two physical defenders on his back. I’d just be interested to see figures because there are a few people that claim Diédhiou is ‘lazy’! Which I just don’t understand, maybe my work ethic is different?

Yes his work ethic is different. His anaerobic strength, its recovery post run is poor. This means he has to work differently to players who have greater aerobic and anaerobic ability. 

I have posted the player is prone to being lazy. The team has to play differently to include him = Hr cant do the yards if the intent was to go high line sand press/ counter press, press in units. Its his movement into defensive shapes and showing for the ball which I would class as frequently lazy, he will walk and shuffle in to positions.

The role Famara has frequently means he is not working channels, he is not chasing lots of % balls and his is not pressing. Its quite conservative.  

He does not do three jobs, a Reid did.  

 

Edited by Cowshed
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3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes his work ethic is different. His anaerobic strength, its recovery post run is poor. This means he has to work differently to players who have greater aerobic and anaerobic ability. 

I have posted the player is prone to being lazy. The team has to play differently to include him = Hr cant do the yards if the intent was to go high line sand press/ counter press, press in units. Its his movement into defensive shapes and showing for the ball which I would class as frequently lazy, he will walk and shuffle in to positions.

The role Famara has frequently means is not working channels, he is not chasing lots of % balls and his is not pressing. Its quite conservative.  

He does not do three jobs, a Reid did.  

 

So you’re telling me that Diédhiou isn’t back there defending corners / free kicks, showing for balls lumped into the left channel & the right channel as well as down the middle while none of his team mates are within 20 yards of him & hence the reason he has to take so many touches while waiting for teammates to arrive & he’s doing this against one, two or even three defenders at a time!

Diedhiou is doing this, he isn’t hiding from his responsibility to the team & while Reid might of been trying to do this I’d question how many headers / challenges he won while defending corners / free kicks? And how many times did Reid hold off one, two or three defenders at a time to a ball played at chest / head height? Reid was played into channels with balls either played to feet or hit over the top of the opposition’s defenders for him to use his speed to turn the defenders! Diédhiou isn’t being fed those balls!

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4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

So you’re telling me that Diédhiou isn’t back there defending corners / free kicks, showing for balls lumped into the left channel & the right channel as well as down the middle while none of his team mates are within 20 yards of him & hence the reason he has to take so many touches while waiting for teammates to arrive & he’s doing this against one, two or even three defenders at a time!

Diedhiou is doing this, he isn’t hiding from his responsibility to the team & while Reid might of been trying to do this I’d question how many headers / challenges he won while defending corners / free kicks? And how many times did Reid hold off one, two or three defenders at a time to a ball played at chest / head height? Reid was played into channels with balls either played to feet or hit over the top of the opposition’s defenders for him to use his speed to turn the defenders! Diédhiou isn’t being fed those balls!

No the player does not show a lot in channels, he is hardly working North to South and East to West. I did not state he did not take part in defending dead balls. Note the use of dead balls. Its common to see forwards used in a similar fashion and it will not expend that much energy in the same manner as pressing which the teams alters when Famara is present in it.

The team with respect will obviously played differently offensively and defensively with Reid in it. He offered different tactical flexibility because of his work rate and mobility. He did what Famara does not does very well. 

 

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4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's the role he's asked to play but as @Chris_Brown said, it doesn't appear to come naturally to him. He's very unorthodox and in some ways plays like a smaller man. 

Pound for pound he's not particularly strong for his size either. I think people sometimes make the mistake of assuming all forwards over 6ft of African descent are always going to be physical behemoths. 

Think you have pretty much nailed it there, he has the wrong body for his brain, seriously. 

I don’t think we have ever got the best out of him, and I don’t think we will. He doesn’t seem to be playing with Afobe so when he starts he starts as a lone striker and we get more of the same. Lump it to him and fingers crossed sooner or later one will go in, which it occasionally does of course, but I don’t think it’s really ‘him’, playing this way. 

Maybe LJ and Co thought they could mould him into the brick powerhouse type player, but as I said I don’t think it’s him either.

Got to say that his attitude is exemplary though.

 

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