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Diedhiou v Semenyo


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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Can this be contrasted to Massengo's positioning and shape as he receives balls? I know we've not seen as much of him but he seems to often position himself so that he receives the ball to the side of an opponent, so allowing him to spin around them and into the space they do not occupy. Massengo rarely (occasionally) ends up backing into opponents as he receives. Just my observation, and it may be wrong but perhaps with this particular skill Fam could learn from Massengo as much as from Adobe?

Yes would be the answer. It is a continuation from what I posted. What you note allows dynamic movement. Massengo's body position means he can spin out because of his foot placement, it is from primarily from the feet.  If a players feet are flat, too far apart he has to drag them v pushing off which makes a player less explosive. Massengo receives the ball in a more open position with his feet in a position he can then push off fluently from, moving either side of his opponent.

Foot patterns, receiving positions are a huge part of any football, there is probably more emphasis placed upon this abroad where it is a fundamental part of training from early ages. It is hard to envisage it is not part of Bristol City training … It is, it has to be. It's an area where Diedhiou could improve without having to alter what God gave him.

Edited by Cowshed
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4 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

But I guess that’s the thing, Diédhiou is Diédhiou, he was signed because of the player is, he’s not a Patrick Bamford..... he does what he does & for him to be labelled as not trying enough or not putting in enough effort is mind boggling imo!

If people want a striker to run around flat out all day long then it’s unlikely you’ll get the physicality that Diédhiou brings to the team. I don’t know of any 6ft plus striker that is running around all game, similarly, I don’t know of any 5ft8” striker that is expected to stand up front & bring hoofs upfield under control from out of the sky! And any of those types of players that can do that aren’t plying their trade in the Championship!

Peter Crouch wasn’t expected to run around defending from open play & Michael Owen wasn’t expected to go head to head with Rio Ferdinand for balls pumped up field at 7ft high.

Diedhiou is trying, it’s not his fault if he’s not getting any support or that any support is taking too long to get to him. We very much play as 5-4-1 or 4-5-1 when we don’t have the ball & that one up top is constantly isolated, be it Diédhiou or Afobe & going back to the original post that suggests Semenyo should be playing the role ahead of Diédhiou (when Afobe isn’t available) is more than a little absurd because Semenyo is nowhere near ready to lead the line imo.

That’s not to say that he couldn’t in the future but now isn’t the time to try him out, when points are on the line, imo.

I wouldn't say it's lazyness, more a lack of understanding of what he's supposed to do.

I personally feel he's not that technically gifted. As mentioned before, his positioning both in movement and body position is poor for a Professional of his age. 

He's still very raw imo, and I don't think he has come up to speed tactically as would have been hoped for.

I've watched him closely since he's been here, as I'm always hoping he's going to click into looking like he fits with our style of football. It happens occasionally.

 

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Yes would be the answer. It is a continuation from what I posted. What you note allows dynamic movement. Massengo's body position means he can spin out because of his foot placement, it is from primarily from the feet.  If a players feet are flat, too far apart he has to drag them v pushing off which makes a player less explosive. Massengo receives the ball in a more open position with his feet in a position he can then push off fluently from, moving either side of his opponent.

Foot patterns, receiving positions are a huge part of any football, there is probably more emphasis placed upon this abroad where it is a fundamental part of training from early ages. It is hard to envisage it is not part of Bristol City training … It is, it has to be. It's an area where Diedhiou could improve without having to alter what God gave 

I played up front for probably 15 of my 20+ years of amateur football, and even I had it drummed into me that trying to receive the ball square on, leaning forward with a defender breathing down your neck will only have one outcome ☺

It's so frustrating for a midfielder who's just started a run forward to see the ball bouncing back 10 yards in the direction it came from, so surely the coaches have picked up on this and are trying to improve Fam''s ball retention?

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On 17/09/2019 at 14:13, Trueredsupporter said:

Like to see Semenyo ahead of Famara as he has a better game for the football City play.

What about scoring goals though? For all the stick he gets, it was Fammy's goals that got us where we were in the table last season. Semenyo is a striker and needs to find the back of the net before he gets ahead of anyone. 

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6 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

A couple of things to take into account on this, he’s started limited games so his match fitness probably isn’t what it could be? He didn’t even come off the bench in the Middlesbrough game despite the club knowing that Afobe was unavailable for our next game (Stoke away) so he’s not been blessed with opportunities to stay up to speed.

I covered that in my previous response.  I’m not expecting him to be putting in stellar performances.

You keep mentioning about him playing in a two up front now..... Is this with Wiemann or Palmer

It’s set up up to be a 5212 (wingback) formation but it’s fluid.  Palmer as the 1 behind Weimann and Diedhiou / Afobe.  Without the ball, Palmer tends to slip in on left side of Brownhill and Massengo / Nagy to make it a 3.  With the ball Palmer can float around, sometimes picking up in the hole, sometimes from deep.

because while Diédhiou gets grief for not going back,

‘going back”?  I’m not asking that, I do expect him to either press the defender who’s on the ball or close proximity, or cut out passing angles.  I’m not asking for him to drop into midfield.  

if Weimann is supposed to be our second striker then I’d argue that he isn’t playing as a forward enough & maybe if he did stay up with Diédhiou, Diedhiou wouldn’t be seen as not doing enough by having to track all four defenders.

I “think” the problem might be that you’re defining “striker” as singular role where you expect Weimann and Diedhiou to play it the same way.  Weimann has different attributes to Diedhiou, and Afobe for that matter.  If you’ve read my posts on previous games I've commented that I don’t think Afobe and Weimann have got their pressing in synch yet.  So I'm not bashing Diedhiou, I'm just critiquing his performance against what I’ve seen from others.

So if Weimann isn’t playing up top & Diedhiou is expected to track back then who is supposed to be in attack? Why is there a need for all 11 players to defend, no team sends all their defenders up during open play so why is there a need for 10 or 11 players to defend?

I’m not asking for them all to get behind the ball.  All 11 players can defend without getting behind the ball.  The front two, can help stop the ball being moved forward in the first place.

For example on Saturday, we started with a back 3 / 5, Massengo & Brownhill back there too & Weimann & Palmer tracking back & Bentley in goal, that’s 10 players back 90% (at least) of the time & explains why Diédhiou was left so badly exposed as we struggled to get him any support.

We can look like our distances were too big between our 3 groups of lines, and when the ball is ‘hoofed’ forward we make it difficult for whoever is up top, and you’re right, at times our 2 CMs can be too deep.  It’s one of my big criticisms of the role Pack played.  Not every ball to him was 40+ yards to him whilst isolated.  What I’m being critical of is his function on Saturday on closer / shorter play.  The graphics prove he failed to retain the ball very often, either in the challenge or with his pass.  I’m not bashing everything he did, he laid a lovely pass into Weimann (for a missed 1 on 1), and of course got the goal.  But his general team-play wasn’t good enough imho.  Going back to that pass to Weimann, Weimann’s run showed how we can create chances.  Weimann and Afobe makes those runs as well as coming short, to join up play.  Fam doesn’t (very often).

Why are we needing to defend with 11 players while the opposition isn’t attacking with 11 players?

See above, I’m not asking 11 to get behind the ball.

When was the last time one of our defenders (who in a 2 or 3 centre halves) were upfield during an attack in open play? And yet the majority of time there are 3 / 4 or even 7 of them back!

Williams made 10-15 successful passes on Saturday from positions at least 10 yards into Stoke’s half.  I’m guessing you’re talking about our CBs, because there is little doubt that Hunt and Rowe’s attacking contributions in open play have been excellent so far.  It’s pretty natural to get the proverbial two banks of four behind the ball once into our half....so again, I’m not asking Fam or Weimann to make it all 10 outfield players behind the ball.  Quite often it is 9, with shared duties to avoid overworking each player.

When the ball is cleared from our defence none of our defenders are expected to join in with our attacks, so why should our one out & out striker be expected to help the other 10 out? And yes, it’s a ‘team’ game but where is Diédhiou’s help?  

“Cleared” is a very different argument to building an attack, and i’ve answered this a few paragraphs above.

He walked off that pitch Saturday absolutely shattered, I don’t think he had another 10 minutes left in him yet Williams who has had no pre season & was making his first appearance of the season seemingly still had a fair bit of energy left in him at 35 years old!

Central Defenders run less than strikers....you know that.  That’s why I played there!! 😜 Defenders pass runners on, they don’t have to run the same distances.  Williams has keo himself in decent shape, he was still playing international football in June, and has done a mini-per-season in his time here, plus u23 games.  You’re comparing apples and oranges here.

I would suggest that was because Williams wasn’t doing enough to help the team out attacking wise! So why is Diédhiou expected to do his & others jobs & yet Williams gets to stand still or walk out when he’s done his job?

You know as well as I do, that you always keep one defender extra back when your team is attacking....so plenty of rests.

Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me that one person is expected to do so much while others aren’t expected anywhere near as much.

Neither of us has the stats, but I suspect most people on here would say Weimann works harder than Diedhiou.  Is that fair?

I’m going to watch Afobe on Saturday & see how many times he’s challenging for balls in the left & right wing positions & to see how many times he’s back defending from open play & to see how quickly he gets support when the ball is played forward!

Stop going on about back defending in open play.  Argue that in response to others but not me....I haven’t suggested that once.  I’ve talked a lot about running the channels, but not defending them!

It very much seems like there are unrealistic expectations put on Diédhiou compared to other players!

You seem to be picking on points I’ve not made and then arguing / debating them.  I’ve agreed on some bits, accepted others, and given you my view on your points back.

In a game against 10 men, Fam received 16 passes and made 4 (20 passing actions), Weimann received 30 passes and made 31 (61 passing actions).  I know it’s just numbers but ‘eff me’ that’s quite telling, and reflects how I viewed the game....that Fam didn’t contribute as much as I expected.

It doesn’t make him a shit player, imho he didn’t have a great game.  He scored a goal, and if he got 20-25 on below par (imho) team contributions, I could excuse some of his team play.  I hope he plays better in future games.

Feel free to challenge my views above.  It’s about opinions. 👍🏻

 

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@Davefevs

As I’ve said, we clearly aren’t going to agree on this, the factor of one players performance has so many variables! Type of passes / balls received, support around, forward passes, sideways passes, backwards passes etc, you see it a lot now that centre halves have great pass completion percentage but when you actually see the majority of those passes it’s tippy tappy passes between the two centre halves or small triangles using a holding midfielder or keeper. Does that mean most centre halves are great at passing? IMO not!

I’m not going to argue all your points Fevs because as I’ve said, we’re clearly not going to agree but one I will pick you up on is the Weimann passes! How many of those were done while he wasn’t playing his supposed role as the 2nd striker? How many of those were from deep inside our half? And how much of that work did he do with his strike partner? (Not a lot I would suggest as he was hardly playing as a striker).

I have actually contacted the club today to see if they are willing to release details of distance covered & sprint percentages, not holding my breath on getting them but I have tried.

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35 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

@Davefevs

As I’ve said, we clearly aren’t going to agree on this, the factor of one players performance has so many variables! Type of passes / balls received, support around, forward passes, sideways passes, backwards passes etc, you see it a lot now that centre halves have great pass completion percentage but when you actually see the majority of those passes it’s tippy tappy passes between the two centre halves or small triangles using a holding midfielder or keeper. Does that mean most centre halves are great at passing? IMO not!

I’m not going to argue all your points Fevs because as I’ve said, we’re clearly not going to agree but one I will pick you up on is the Weimann passes! How many of those were done while he wasn’t playing his supposed role as the 2nd striker? How many of those were from deep inside our half? And how much of that work did he do with his strike partner? (Not a lot I would suggest as he was hardly playing as a striker).

I have actually contacted the club today to see if they are willing to release details of distance covered & sprint percentages, not holding my breath on getting them but I have tried.

Cool.

My final gambit coming up though!! 😜

The two “strikers” v Stoke:

7F39F633-39E7-485D-823E-51A503FD102F.thumb.jpeg.a6a746eb9432f750c007cd932fc13de4.jpeg

The two “strikers” v Hull:

9CC4CCD2-D81F-4A52-89D0-9C5F56991BC1.thumb.jpeg.cbd6492f5657a30e2b2908481ba067f8.jpeg

A much more involved performance v Hull.  Here’s my post from player ratings, after many slated him for missing what was unfairly described as a sitter.  It wasn’t dissimilar to the one he scored Saturday, but unluckily hit bar and bounced down on the line.

Diedhiou (75m) - 6 - a mixed game. A couple of lovely bits of hold-up play early on, but looked a bit lost at times when we didn’t have the ball.  Very unlucky with header.  Replaced by Semenyo.

Semenyo (15) - no rating, but did ok and linked up well.

Afobe - 8 - thought he missed Weimann initially, but grew into the game and must love having Palmer on the pitch.  He times his runs so well.  Should’ve had a penalty before he eventually scored after Rowe fouled.  Second goal was a cool finish off a bouncing ball.  We’ve seen those missed, but you sense Afobe trusts himself.  I’m sure he would’ve scored from Hunt’s cross, so could’ve easily had a hat-trick today.  Probably MOTM, but just felt Bentley deserved it.

As we’ve both alluded to in different words....perhaps Weimann and Diedhiou are a partnership that just doesn’t work???

We can debate “workrate” if we can lay our hands on any stats. 😜

 

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15 hours ago, Oops said:

I played up front for probably 15 of my 20+ years of amateur football, and even I had it drummed into me that trying to receive the ball square on, leaning forward with a defender breathing down your neck will only have one outcome ☺

It's so frustrating for a midfielder who's just started a run forward to see the ball bouncing back 10 yards in the direction it came from, so surely the coaches have picked up on this and are trying to improve Fam''s ball retention?

All I have done is highlight somethings that can be improved. I wouldn't post I would be amazed if they had not because my certainty that all players work on their touch etc goes beyond that. Its a constant.

This is my opinion formed by listening to and studying many coaches with knowledge, experience and qualifications I can only dream of. Many skills are formed during formative years, players footballing ability to learn new skill does not cease but decreases with age. If high levels of skill are not formed by the players  teens the further acquisition of skill becomes harder. We hear about players being natural goal scorers, ever heard of a player being described of having a natural first touch? You won't, it is formed by thousands of hours of intense practice forming neural pathways and muscle memory. The player in question could improve further but that improvement is based upon what the player already possesses. 

Famara has been here for years. He came with a questionable touch, he will leave with? I will go with a questionable touch. 

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20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Tipps69 it’s all your fault, you jinxed Afobe 🤣🤣🤣

Watch Fam get 20 goals!!!!!

See, now I’ve been sat here blaming you & @Cowshed, anything for you guys to get your point across & what better way than 24,999 fans giving him loads while I’m sat there praying for him not to let me down 😂😂

I hope he does score shed loads, with it looking like we weren’t signing anyone 50/1 looked too good in a team I had high hopes of promotion for 😂😂

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