Derby County Drink Driving charges (merged topics)

[BanburyRed]

11 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

 

Hardly surprising they both left Keogh behind, most Championship strikers have been doing that for years....

[Robbored]

3 hours ago, Seneca the Younger said:

I'd be surprised if they were on illegal  drugs, it'd show up in regulary drug tests.

You never know......young guys out on the piss and losing all sense of what they’re doing.....It might of seemed okay to snort a line if you’re full up with booze.

Cocaine has a half life of 72 hrs so if they had been on it it would definitely shown up in a blood test and if it’s positive they’ll be in deep shit.....

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 hours ago, billywedlock said:

If they charge them with causing injury ( Keogh) with dangerous driving , one of them will . The drink driving will be used to say the driver was careless as it was not a conscious act to downgrade from dangerous. Of course we don’t know how they crashed . If there is any evidence or witnesses it could get a lot worse . Likely 3 year driving bans , prison likely if CPS go for dangerous driving . With the publicity it would be strange if CPS did not file for dangerous . Then a suspended term is likely . Keogh not likely to have police issue unless he was doing something to the driver . I can see Derby going hard at all 3 though . Financial accounting issues aside would not be a shock to see them fire all 3 . They could have killed innocent people . It is a very serious situation. 

The video of Bennett in the pub looks a real problem for me 

Completely bladdered to a state of vomiting and then seen sipping a pint in the bar 

Doesnt do him any favours to say the least 

All filmed and posted on social media by a mate of his , the senior pro and new captain of Derby , following this shambles.....Tom Huddlestone 

Mates eh......

 

Shame he didn’t take his car keys as I would have done 

 

If the story of them driving back to the scene as they’ve ‘lost’ Keogh has any truth , it beggars belief and level of stupidity 

If Bennett as alleged returned back to the scene and committed a second bout of drink driving , after the crash , and in his damaged vehicle,  not only would that be ridiculously stupid , but another aggravating factor come sentencing 

[AshtonPark]

I guess this goes to show how getting players with the right "dna" is important.

[Mr Popodopolous]

As others have mentioned and touched upon, it also leaves a financial dilemma- more good news for Derby!

Had a quick look at the regulations- and seems that there are exceptional permitted items that can be applied for- this however would seem not to be one.  Which actually in all honesty is odd given that a profit on stadium (plus fixed asset) sale and leasebacks to a related party are allowed for FFP purposes- I know and I suspect we all know which one is the more reasonable and acceptable, yet ironically the less fair one is allowed and the more sensible one seemingly not!

Lawrence contract expires in 2022, Keogh 2021 and Bennett 2020, as per Transfermarkt.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

The video of Bennett in the pub looks a real problem for me 

Completely bladdered to a state of vomiting and then seen sipping a pint in the bar 

Doesnt do him any favours to say the least 

All filmed and posted on social media by a mate of his , the senior pro and new captain of Derby , following this shambles.....Tom Huddlestone 

Mates eh......

 

Shame he didn’t take his car keys as I would have done 

 

If the story of them driving back to the scene as they’ve ‘lost’ Keogh has any truth , it beggars belief and level of stupidity 

If Bennett as alleged returned back to the scene and committed a second bout of drink driving , after the crash , and in his damaged vehicle,  not only would that be ridiculously stupid , but another aggravating factor come sentencing 

If I was a big-wig at Derby, I'd be questioning Mr Huddlestone as to why he thought it appropriate to share this kind of stuff on social media, and what he was doing there with them etc. I know he's not directly responsible for their actions but I wouldn't be making him captain…

 

[McNasty Filth]

Aren't there extra charges for leaving the scene of an accident? That really is the lowest of the low, leaving another human being to possibly die, and one of your mates at that. They must have been absolutely fooked.

[Simon bristol]

13 hours ago, paul_fox said:

Slightly off and on topic it stated that Keogh doesn't drive and never has. That's pretty rare for a footballer who's played at a decent level not to I'd have thought? 

Maybe he has driven but he just doesn’t remember it?

[Tipps69]

20 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

If I was a big-wig at Derby, I'd be questioning Mr Huddlestone as to why he thought it appropriate to share this kind of stuff on social media, and what he was doing there with them etc. I know he's not directly responsible for their actions but I wouldn't be making him captain…

 

I would assume that stuff like the social media posts have come out after the original ‘shit hit the fan’. The same as voice recording account of the incident, it’s all stuff that wouldn’t of been known about when the incident first came to light.

And this will all go towards the evidence.

[Simon bristol]

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

Appears to me at this stage to be gross misconduct, employment wise, for all three. If so, then any employer would be on firm ground to dismiss all of them, whether they are on a term contract or just weekly / monthly like most workers.

Problem is that derby wont want to lose the transfer values of these players, so wont be happy to just fire them no matter how much they deserve it

[Tipps69]

17 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Problem is that derby wont want to lose the transfer values of these players, so wont be happy to just fire them no matter how much they deserve it

Do you honestly believe there’s any transfer value in these players?

I’d suggest Keogh has no value, even before this but now he’s definitely not worth anything.

Lawrence & Bennett, is anyone really going to want to sign them? Neither of them has exactly been good for this season & now they have all this hanging over their heads, I’d be surprised if there are any takers in the Premier League or Championship & if anyone lower down the pyramid are interested, could they pay any money that would really make a difference financially?

I just can’t see them having much of a future in the game, I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I heard we were intending on signing any of them!

[Vincent Vega]

2 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Do you honestly believe there’s any transfer value in these players?

I’d suggest Keogh has no value, even before this but now he’s definitely not worth anything.

Lawrence & Bennett, is anyone really going to want to sign them? Neither of them has exactly been good for this season & now they have all this hanging over their heads, I’d be surprised if there are any takers in the Premier League or Championship & if anyone lower down the pyramid are interested, could they pay any money that would really make a difference financially?

I just can’t see them having much of a future in the game, I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I heard we were intending on signing any of them!

If you believe no one would sign them you're in for a big shock.

[RedM]

1 hour ago, jaydee=inspiration said:

Aren't there extra charges for leaving the scene of an accident? That really is the lowest of the low, leaving another human being to possibly die, and one of your mates at that. They must have been absolutely fooked.

I think there is yes. A fine won’t affect them like it would a ‘normal’ earner but points or disqualification would, and maybe if attached to other offences like the drink driving it might carry a prison sentence?

What were their pissed up brains thinking of, if they left the scene it could only be that they were sober enough to realise they had done something wrong. I know some in the past have fled and tried to say their vehicle was stolen. But in these days of social media, cctv, dash cams, mobile phone mast triangulation, GPS, and Traffic cams  you must surely have no chance.

[Galway Red]

On 26/09/2019 at 13:31, TomF said:

They could sack him but no doubt the PFA will defend him to the hilt.

As they should

[Silvio Dante]

I think there’s a lot more to come here.

Irrespective of what Derby would like to do, as at right now they can’t do anything (other than standard club fines re indiscipline). It seems likely that Bennett and Lawrence have broken the law, but even in circumstances such as this, there is the presumption of innocence. In short, if they sacked them now, it’s a court case against Derby for unfair dismissal. And the action of sacking may in itself prejudice the prosecution.

So, Derby are in a bit of “wait and see”. If Bennett and Lawrence plead guilty then they can take action, if not they need to wait for the verdict. And the point about Wayne Rooney having been done for a drinking offence in the US is also pertinent here - if the club are willing to employ him as a marquee signing, then sacking Bennett and Lawrence would seem double standards unless it is proven (again, as looks likely) that B&Ls offence was markedly worse.

What probably happens here is DCFC wait for the court case. If, as anticipated, the players are convicted, they then take action. If it’s a fine, the players stay - if it’s prison, they sack them.

The point made by @Vincent Vega about people still signing them is kind of immaterial here. If they go to Prison Derby have x months of wages to pay and also the asset value (not in book terms Mr P) is destroyed. Likely at that point there isn’t a huge difference between Derby’s wage outlay and likely fee received (they’ll still be liable for shortfall in wages if the players move elsewhere), so no huge benefit in retaining.

My thoughts: They’ll be sacked post court case. Keogh, although not committing a crime as such, also gets sacked for bringing club into disrepute. 

[Major Isewater]

16 hours ago, Northern Red said:

It was to their cost as well, that team should have got promotion (it had more talent than the one that did go up under GJ), and none of them realised their full potential as players.

You are right , that team should have gone up .

I thought Lansdown summed it up when he said that he appreciated the double winning season but felt like we should be in the Championship anyway .

Getting into the Prem, now that would be something else . 

[Major Isewater]

11 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think there’s a lot more to come here.

Irrespective of what Derby would like to do, as at right now they can’t do anything (other than standard club fines re indiscipline). It seems likely that Bennett and Lawrence have broken the law, but even in circumstances such as this, there is the presumption of innocence. In short, if they sacked them now, it’s a court case against Derby for unfair dismissal. And the action of sacking may in itself prejudice the prosecution.

So, Derby are in a bit of “wait and see”. If Bennett and Lawrence plead guilty then they can take action, if not they need to wait for the verdict. And the point about Wayne Rooney having been done for a drinking offence in the US is also pertinent here - if the club are willing to employ him as a marquee signing, then sacking Bennett and Lawrence would seem double standards unless it is proven (again, as looks likely) that B&Ls offence was markedly worse.

What probably happens here is DCFC wait for the court case. If, as anticipated, the players are convicted, they then take action. If it’s a fine, the players stay - if it’s prison, they sack them.

The point made by @Vincent Vega about people still signing them is kind of immaterial here. If they go to Prison Derby have x months of wages to pay and also the asset value (not in book terms Mr P) is destroyed. Likely at that point there isn’t a huge difference between Derby’s wage outlay and likely fee received (they’ll still be liable for shortfall in wages if the players move elsewhere), so no huge benefit in retaining.

My thoughts: They’ll be sacked post court case. Keogh, although not committing a crime as such, also gets sacked for bringing club into disrepute. 

Either way , going absolutely swimmingly for one of our  promotion rivals.

[Davefevs]

59 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Do you honestly believe there’s any transfer value in these players?

I’d suggest Keogh has no value, even before this but now he’s definitely not worth anything.

Lawrence & Bennett, is anyone really going to want to sign them? Neither of them has exactly been good for this season & now they have all this hanging over their heads, I’d be surprised if there are any takers in the Premier League or Championship & if anyone lower down the pyramid are interested, could they pay any money that would really make a difference financially?

I just can’t see them having much of a future in the game, I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I heard we were intending on signing any of them!

That’s the big question for a certain Mr Mel Morris.  He values his players as assets regularly and this will be used in their FFP calculation.  Based on my calculations of City’s players we have an amortisation value of £11m to write off thus season, so we are immediately in £11m loss territory before anything else happens.  It’s one of the big reasons we have to sell high / recruit low.

Morris doesn’t straight line amortise transfer fees. If he did, £5m Tom Lawrence on his 5 year deal would now be valued at £3m in City’s books, casting £1m p/a in amortisation.  You can bet your bottom dollar Mel Morris has him valued at £5m at least.  Sacking him would mean a £5m+ dent in his profit and loss.  That’s one thing.  But if he’s true to his word with his valuation method, he ought to be significantly lowering his value, because no bugger is gonna buy Lawrence for anything like his value car crash.  Knowing Morris, he’ll probably value him higher!

Ultimately with the 3 players involved, he’s potentially got a re-valuation loss of £10m to deal with.

@Mr Popodopolous dies that sound about right?

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, jaydee=inspiration said:

Aren't there extra charges for leaving the scene of an accident? That really is the lowest of the low, leaving another human being to possibly die, and one of your mates at that. They must have been absolutely fooked.

 

21 minutes ago, RedM said:

I think there is yes. A fine won’t affect them like it would a ‘normal’ earner but points or disqualification would, and maybe if attached to other offences like the drink driving it might carry a prison sentence?

What were their pissed up brains thinking of, if they left the scene it could only be that they were sober enough to realise they had done something wrong. I know some in the past have fled and tried to say their vehicle was stolen. But in these days of social media, cctv, dash cams, mobile phone mast triangulation, GPS, and Traffic cams  you must surely have no chance.

If the bit about them leaving the scene , and almost unbelievably leaving Keogh at the scene injured is anything like true they have massive probs 

If the bit about them going to one players flat and then returning to the scene , my suspicious mind thinks .......a desperate  attempted hip flask defence 

[Tipps69]

1 hour ago, Vincent Vega said:

If you believe no one would sign them you're in for a big shock.

And if you believe that anyone will be paying anything like what their transfer value was at even last weekend, then you’ll be in for a big shock! Someone might be willing to take them on a free but the chances of anyone paying the £7m or so they paid for Lawrence, it just isn’t going to happen! Clubs that are willing to pay those sorts of fees tend to want players that are squeaky clean, not someone fresh off a Drink Drive charge, let alone what else comes out in the subsequent news & what punishment is handed out to them.

[RedM]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

If the bit about them leaving the scene , and almost unbelievably leaving Keogh at the scene injured is anything like true they have massive probs 

If the bit about them going to one players flat and then returning to the scene , my suspicious mind thinks .......a desperate  attempted hip flask defence 

Indeed, this is all coming from the audio isn’t it. I return once again to the seatbelt issue. In the audio it states ( if true of course) Keogh was sat amongst the other players gear which was all piled on the back seat. Is a drunken Keogh really going to strap himself in and move a ton of stuff out of the way to do so. Fair play if he did, but I personally think not. Again, of course I cannot know. 

[WhistleHappy]

15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think there’s a lot more to come here.

Irrespective of what Derby would like to do, as at right now they can’t do anything (other than standard club fines re indiscipline). It seems likely that Bennett and Lawrence have broken the law, but even in circumstances such as this, there is the presumption of innocence. In short, if they sacked them now, it’s a court case against Derby for unfair dismissal. And the action of sacking may in itself prejudice the prosecution.

So, Derby are in a bit of “wait and see”. If Bennett and Lawrence plead guilty then they can take action, if not they need to wait for the verdict. And the point about Wayne Rooney having been done for a drinking offence in the US is also pertinent here - if the club are willing to employ him as a marquee signing, then sacking Bennett and Lawrence would seem double standards unless it is proven (again, as looks likely) that B&Ls offence was markedly worse.

What probably happens here is DCFC wait for the court case. If, as anticipated, the players are convicted, they then take action. If it’s a fine, the players stay - if it’s prison, they sack them.

The point made by @Vincent Vega about people still signing them is kind of immaterial here. If they go to Prison Derby have x months of wages to pay and also the asset value (not in book terms Mr P) is destroyed. Likely at that point there isn’t a huge difference between Derby’s wage outlay and likely fee received (they’ll still be liable for shortfall in wages if the players move elsewhere), so no huge benefit in retaining.

My thoughts: They’ll be sacked post court case. Keogh, although not committing a crime as such, also gets sacked for bringing club into disrepute. 

Surely a prison sentence would render contract payments null and void at least during time served as the players wouldn't be in a position to fulfil their side of availability as contracted... involuntarily breach of contract why would wages be payable during period of unavailability, circumstances a bit different to being out through injury/sickness.

Plus the fact their actions have sullied their employers name by association through bad publicity... 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s the big question for a certain Mr Mel Morris.  He values his players as assets regularly and this will be used in their FFP calculation.  Based on my calculations of City’s players we have an amortisation value of £11m to write off thus season, so we are immediately in £11m loss territory before anything else happens.  It’s one of the big reasons we have to sell high / recruit low.

Morris doesn’t straight line amortise transfer fees. If he did, £5m Tom Lawrence on his 5 year deal would now be valued at £3m in City’s books, casting £1m p/a in amortisation.  You can bet your bottom dollar Mel Morris has him valued at £5m at least.  Sacking him would mean a £5m+ dent in his profit and loss.  That’s one thing.  But if he’s true to his word with his valuation method, he ought to be significantly lowering his value, because no bugger is gonna buy Lawrence for anything like his value car crash.  Knowing Morris, he’ll probably value him higher!

Ultimately with the 3 players involved, he’s potentially got a re-valuation loss of £10m to deal with.

@Mr Popodopolous dies that sound about right?

Sounds broadly correct I reckon @Davefevs- a cost of impairment issue, ie a player sacked for gross misconduct would surely now be valued at £0- so it would in that scenario I think show in this years accounts as impairment of intangible fixed assets/players registrations £10m- of if it's the following season they're sacked, would show that. Maybe Keogh would take the valuation of the 3 a bit under £10m due to age? Stoke had a big hit eg of £29,370,000 in Players Registrations in their relegation season- so far as I can see this is not exempt from FFP, whereas say writedown of stadium value would be- probably a career ending injury would obviously be exempt and so too IMO would or at least should be one where a player purchased for say £10m on a year deal- suffers a serious injury after a year- significant writedown but not enough to end career- that should or that difference should be exempted from FFP IMO.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, RedM said:

Indeed, this is all coming from the audio isn’t it. I return once again to the seatbelt issue. In the audio it states ( if true of course) Keogh was sat amongst the other players gear which was all piled on the back seat. Is a drunken Keogh really going to strap himself in and move a ton of stuff out of the way to do so. Fair play if he did, but I personally think not. Again, of course I cannot know. 

A catalogue of bad decisions through the evening & night 

I’m certainly not getting into moral judgements , as I’ve done many a stupid thing back in earlier life  , but with their wealth and Club Cars provided they were incredibly stupid , at best

Where was the leader , experienced head to step up & halt the train ?

Maybe this wasn’t unusual ?

[Vincent Vega]

7 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

And if you believe that anyone will be paying anything like what their transfer value was at even last weekend, then you’ll be in for a big shock! Someone might be willing to take them on a free but the chances of anyone paying the £7m or so they paid for Lawrence, it just isn’t going to happen! Clubs that are willing to pay those sorts of fees tend to want players that are squeaky clean, not someone fresh off a Drink Drive charge, let alone what else comes out in the subsequent news & what punishment is handed out to them.

That's not what you said originally though is it. You never mentioned anything about fees. This is not the first time footballers have been caught doing this and it wont be the last. The moral compass doesn't exist in professional football,  so in answer to your point, no I wont be in for a shock at all.

[swampy]

"We would also like to thank the emergency services for their swift help."  I wonder what this cost the public sector that is so short of funding??  I have a daughter who works in the NHS and it is crying out for funding and pr**ks like this with fat wallets get free treatment despite stupid behavior ... 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Hmmmmmm.....

 

Daily Mail are reporting

Derby captain Richard Keogh was LEFT UNCONSCIOUS in his team-mate's crumpled Range Rover and had to be rescued by medics after crash that saw two stars charged with drink-driving

Richard Keogh was left unconscious at the scene of the crash that has left him with a career-threatening knee injury before the emergency services came to his rescue.

Extraordinary, fresh claims have emerged about the build-up to the horror smash that ended with Derby players Tom Lawrence and Mason Bennett also charged with drink driving, which has been the talk of football since Tuesday late-night incident.

Derby and Republic of Ireland captain Keogh, 33, was a backseat passenger in Lawrence's Range Rover and suffered an ACL injury as a result of the collision.

 

 

 

[Tipps69]

6 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said:

That's not what you said originally though is it. You never mentioned anything about fees. This is not the first time footballers have been caught doing this and it wont be the last. The moral compass doesn't exist in professional football,  so in answer to your point, no I wont be in for a shock at all.

So the bit where I said ‘Do you believe there’s any transfer value left in these players’? Didn’t cover the fact that I was on about anyone paying a transfer fee for these players?

I’m sure someone would take them on a free & I’m also sure that those players won’t be in a position to command their current wages or better.

The more that is coming out about the whole incident, the worse it is looking for these players, it isn’t a simple case of 2 or 3 lads have a couple of pints & then risk driving home in the hope of being under the limit! The evidence points towards the group being very very drunk, possible use of illegal substances & plastered it all over social media for everyone to see & then they still had no regard for the law, the general public or themselves, caused an accident, fled the scene, left a member of their party behind & then returned to the scene drink driving again!

And this despite the club expecting them to be sensible & laying on transport for them!

They’d hardly be at the top of clubs list of possible recruits i’d say.

And it’s obviously all a matter of opinion & mine isn’t the same as yours.

[Vincent Vega]

3 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

So the bit where I said ‘Do you believe there’s any transfer value left in these players’? Didn’t cover the fact that I was on about anyone paying a transfer fee for these players?

I’m sure someone would take them on a free & I’m also sure that those players won’t be in a position to command their current wages or better.

The more that is coming out about the whole incident, the worse it is looking for these players, it isn’t a simple case of 2 or 3 lads have a couple of pints & then risk driving home in the hope of being under the limit! The evidence points towards the group being very very drunk, possible use of illegal substances & plastered it all over social media for everyone to see & then they still had no regard for the law, the general public or themselves, caused an accident, fled the scene, left a member of their party behind & then returned to the scene drink driving again!

And this despite the club expecting them to be sensible & laying on transport for them!

They’d hardly be at the top of clubs list of possible recruits i’d say.

And it’s obviously all a matter of opinion & mine isn’t the same as yours.

Football clubs bought and played Nile Ranger , they'll have no problem at all with these 2.

[CyderInACan]

4 hours ago, Robbored said:

You never know......young guys out on the piss and losing all sense of what they’re doing.....It might of seemed okay to snort a line if you’re full up with booze.

Indeed. But what a damning indictment on the society we live in that this is pretty much seen as normal these days.