Derby County Drink Driving charges (merged topics)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Keogh agent about to be on TalkSport- could be interesting.

[BCFC Grim]

50 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Keogh agent about to be on TalkSport- could be interesting.

Anything interesting said? 

[WhistleHappy]

57 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Keogh agent about to be on TalkSport- could be interesting.

I'll wait for the tv programme with Keith Lemmon  'Through The Keogh' to come on.

[downendcity]

3 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said:

I'll wait for the tv programme with Keith Lemmon  'Through The Keogh' to come on.

Who'd live get pi55ed in a house pub like this?

[lkntrkljbflrbh3eljth]

On 01/11/2019 at 19:04, Red-Robbo said:

They might indeed decide that. We'd have to know the details of Keogh's contract of employment to be able to take a view on it.

All I'm saying is that saying "others have done worse and not been sacked" doesn't work at an employment tribunal.

As FoC, I was involved in a case where upwards of 10 journalists all faced disciplinary charges over a cock-up each had had a different, but distinct role in.  Two guys were sacked. The case that they were treated unfairly compared to some of the other 8+ got nowhere. It isn't up to an ET to decide who gets sacked. It is only up to them to rule on whether the corporation had a case for dismissal against both men; whether they had followed procedures laid down; whether the men had been given a chance to appeal the decision and given the chance to plead their case.

How the corporation treated the other journalists and whether it was fair as regards to the two who were dismissed was beyond their judicial competence to rule on.

You're almost completely right here. ETs only have to look at whether procedure was followed and if so whether a dismissal fell within a "band of reasonable responses" to the misconduct in question. It's pretty clear that fining the two drivers 6 weeks wages is within that range of responses, and it's also pretty clear that dismissing Keogh would be considered to be within that range too (albeit at the more extreme end).

However, how other people involved in instances of misconduct were disciplined is directly relevant to whether a dismissal falls within the band of reasonable responses. There have been cases where employees were dismissed while other, more senior/more culpable employees, were merely warned or fined for their part in the same incident. These cases are sometimes decided in favour of the dismissed employee; however, given Keogh's senior role at the club relative to the drivers it's very unlikely that such a decision would be reached in this case.

Of course, even if it is found that he was unfairly dismissed the maximum award at an ET is just under £100,000 (absent certain circumstances which definitely don't apply here). This is far less than the amount outstanding in his contract, so it makes financial sense for Derby to dismiss him regardless, if his resale value is next to nothing. The chance that Keogh would be reengaged as an employee of Derby following an ET is almost nil given the bad blood that has been generated by the actions of both parties.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting to see how this plays out...not fully sure that any notional payout- say it was £2m in court plus compensation- would be automatically granted as exempt from FFP calcs.

Employment tribunal if it only caps a payout may not be his best bet.

@BCFC Grim

Nothing out of the ordinary really.

https://talksport.com/football/efl/624937/richard-keogh-agent-derby-county-sacking-devastating/

[phantom]

The Professional Footballers' Association (PFA) will "robustly defend" Richard Keogh after his sacking by Derby County.

Keogh was sacked over his involvement in a car crash which saw team-mates Tom Lawrence and Mason Bennett arrested.

Lawrence and Bennett were both fined six weeks' wages by the Rams and pleaded guilty to drink driving.

"We will robustly defend our member because we feel he has been unfairly treated," said a PFA spokesman.

Keogh, 33, suffered a knee injury in the crash on 24 September and will be out for around 15 months. His contract was due to expire in 2021.

It is understood Derby offered Keogh a revised deal on reduced wages.

The player will appeal against Derby's decision and the PFA have told him they will back him in that and any subsequent challenge to his dismissal because they do not view the treatment of Keogh as being in line with the action taken against Lawrence and Bennett.

In announcing Keogh's dismissal, Derby said they would not comment further until the outcome of any appeal was known.

[Akira]

I personally don't see how Derby have got a leg to stand on. 

 

Whether he's the captain or not, doesn't give ground to treat him harsher than the others, especially as he wasn't driving. They're all absolute knobs, and I have no sympathy for any of them, however I think all 3 should suffer the same punishment (or the driver gets a harsher penalty). 

This is so obviously about Derby trying to save more money, they'll literally stop at nothing, even though it makes their club look disgraceful. 

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, Akira said:

I personally don't see how Derby have got a leg to stand on. 

 

Whether he's the captain or not, doesn't give ground to treat him harsher than the others, especially as he wasn't driving. They're all absolute knobs, and I have no sympathy for any of them, however I think all 3 should suffer the same punishment (or the driver gets a harsher penalty). 

This is so obviously about Derby trying to save more money, they'll literally stop at nothing, even though it makes their club look disgraceful. 

This, together with Cardiff's actions over Sala's death only seem to confirm  what Simon Jordan said on Talksport recently -  where money is involved, football has no integrity.

 

[BCFC11]

Derby are most likely well within their rights to sack Keogh for his actions that night, so how on earth can those other two get away with a paltry 6 week fine and abit of help in the community, bearing in mind they both chose drive pissed up, both totalled their motors, the preceded to leg it from the scene whilst leaving their captain and mate trapped in one of the cars before reluctantly returning to the scene! Absolute ’s who imo should be on the same scrapheap that their disgraceful club chucked Keogh on.

[pillred]

2 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

Derby are most likely well within their rights to sack Keogh for his actions that night, so how on earth can those other two get away with a paltry 6 week fine and abit of help in the community, bearing in mind they both chose drive pissed up, both totalled their motors, the preceded to leg it from the scene whilst leaving their captain and mate trapped in one of the cars before reluctantly returning to the scene! Absolute ’s who imo should be on the same scrapheap that their disgraceful club chucked Keogh on.

Unless there is more to this than we have heard it does seem a bit unfair on Keogh to say the least.

[Natchfever]

3 hours ago, downendcity said:

This, together with Cardiff's actions over Sala's death only seem to confirm  what Simon Jordan said on Talksport recently -  where money is involved, football has no integrity.

 

Yeah we should have sacked Orr and Brooker............

[WhistleHappy]

On 26/09/2019 at 20:50, OldlandReddies said:

100% Rooney will pull out of his Derby move.

Is that you Mrs Vardy? 

[Guest]

I wonder if the end game for Derby is they settle out of court with RK for less than value of his overall contract -  they know if it goes to tribunal they all the details will be revealed and maybe RK doesn’t want that.. so 70% contract value paid up and it’s all hush hush. Maybe I’m being too much of a cynic? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Unsure Keogh is in the mood for compromise but if more is to come out then that could well happen.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, TomF said:

I wonder if the end game for Derby is they settle out of court with RK for less than value of his overall contract -  they know if it goes to tribunal they all the details will be revealed and maybe RK doesn’t want that.. so 70% contract value paid up and it’s all hush hush. Maybe I’m being too much of a cynic? 

The bit that could bite Derby in the arse, is that they were willing to keep him on smaller wages, thus in a roundabout way confirming their decision to sack him was therefore all about money...not what he did.  If it was truly gross misconduct, just sack him...don’t offer him a reduced contract.

[Numero Uno]

4 hours ago, TomF said:

I wonder if the end game for Derby is they settle out of court with RK for less than value of his overall contract -  they know if it goes to tribunal they all the details will be revealed and maybe RK doesn’t want that.. so 70% contract value paid up and it’s all hush hush. Maybe I’m being too much of a cynic? 

Agreed. If the only thing Keogh did wrong is not wear a seatbelt surely Derby are on rocky ground in the eyes of the law? I would be amazed if there aren’t further facts that have yet to be disclosed.

[The Original OTIB]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The bit that could bite Derby in the arse, is that they were willing to keep him on smaller wages, thus in a roundabout way confirming their decision to sack him was therefore all about money...not what he did.  If it was truly gross misconduct, just sack him...don’t offer him a reduced contract.

Constructive dismissal, effectively followed by termination.

[phantom]

This story is slowly unraveling bit by bit....

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/morris-keogh-drink-drive-derby-3511068.amp?__twitter_impression=true

[Tipps69]

24 minutes ago, phantom said:

This story is slowly unraveling bit by bit....

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/morris-keogh-drink-drive-derby-3511068.amp?__twitter_impression=true

He’s still talking bollocks!!

Going on about sacking players for drinking alcohol! Isn’t that exactly what he’s done to Keogh? People aren’t saying Lawrence, Bennett or Keogh should be sacked for drinking alcohol, the first two were drink driving ffs!! Caused an accident, caused injury & got away with it!!

And maybe if Derby wasn’t such a shit show of a club then their players wouldn’t need to look for such a drastic way of getting away from the club?!? You reap what you sow Mr Morris & your underhand morals & dealings has now led to you believing everyone is like you! I really hope we don’t have any dealings with him & his club in the future!

[daored]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

This story is slowly unraveling bit by bit....

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/morris-keogh-drink-drive-derby-3511068.amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

2 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

He’s still talking bollocks!!

Going on about sacking players for drinking alcohol! Isn’t that exactly what he’s done to Keogh? People aren’t saying Lawrence, Bennett or Keogh should be sacked for drinking alcohol, the first two were drink driving ffs!! Caused an accident, caused injury & got away with it!!

And maybe if Derby wasn’t such a shit show of a club then their players wouldn’t need to look for such a drastic way of getting away from the club?!? You reap what you sow Mr Morris & your underhand morals & dealings has now led to you believing everyone is like you! I really hope we don’t have any dealings with him & his club in the future!

The more he talks , the more a ***** he sounds. 

It’s all about finances , nothing else 

[Major Isewater]

On 15/10/2019 at 16:17, Mr Popodopolous said:

Am I missing something here?? I'm not hugely draconian on law and order, but wouldn't we all- pretty much anyone would!!

Wonder which team Mr. Taaffee supports.

Everton ...

[Major Isewater]

21 minutes ago, daored said:

 

The more he talks , the more a ***** he sounds. 

It’s all about finances , nothing else 

Quite right here’s the key quote lifted from the article ;

’ , the financial implications are a nightmare.’

So , OK to fire a crocked bloke with little or no value but a ‘ nightmare ‘ to sack two assets worth millions.

You just have to love football ‘ morals ‘ .

 

[downendcity]

36 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

 

You just have to love football ‘ morals ‘ .

 

You have to find them first! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Actually agree with him- on alcohol in football.

Of course, sacking Keogh but keeping the others is wholly double standards. The underlying point though, I agree on that one aspect- I've long held the view that footballers shouldn't drink during the season. If you want to push towards your optimum, if you want to push yourself towards a personal elite status- and a collective one given it's a team and squad game, then you need an elite mindset.

[Tipps69]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Actually agree with him- on alcohol in football.

Of course, sacking Keogh but keeping the others is wholly double standards. The underlying point though, I agree on that one aspect- I've long held the view that footballers shouldn't drink during the season.

The issue with this is that they (the players) are adults! They should be able to have a drink without it risking them getting the sack. A glass of wine with dinner (for example), players that aren’t involved in international fixtures (Premier League & Championship players) so basically get two weeks off compared to international players.

These adults should be adult enough to be able to tell when enough is too much but as we all know from the state of some non footballers on most nights of the week, knowing when enough is enough isn’t that simple! But players of responsibility & with the money on offer & the example they are supposed to set to young ‘customers’ (not fans), should be able to control themselves better & let’s not forget, if the videos doing the rounds are real, these players weren’t just a small glass of wine over the limit, they were a complete mess!!

And if after all that, these idiots don’t realise that they shouldn’t be driving, there really is little hope for Bennett, Lawrence or Derby County Football Club with the way they have behaved throughout this. It’s beyond embarrassing & Morris’ continued stance is making him look an even bigger idiot than after he sold his own stadium to himself to clear their FFP fiasco up!

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

The issue with this is that they (the players) are adults! They should be able to have a drink without it risking them getting the sack. A glass of wine with dinner (for example), players that aren’t involved in international fixtures (Premier League & Championship players) so basically get two weeks off compared to international players.

These adults should be adult enough to be able to tell when enough is too much but as we all know from the state of some non footballers on most nights of the week, knowing when enough is enough isn’t that simple! But players of responsibility & with the money on offer & the example they are supposed to set to young ‘customers’ (not fans), should be able to control themselves better & let’s not forget, if the videos doing the rounds are real, these players weren’t just a small glass of wine over the limit, they were a complete mess!!

And if after all that, these idiots don’t realise that they shouldn’t be driving, there really is little hope for Bennett, Lawrence or Derby County Football Club with the way they have behaved throughout this. It’s beyond embarrassing & Morris’ continued stance is making him look an even bigger idiot than after he sold his own stadium to himself to clear their FFP fiasco up!

Think Pep often bans alcohol- read it a few times, however maybe a glass of wine with dinner is alright yes. Beyond that, where I'm driving at is with the elite mentality point. I'm not suggesting that doing this will make us like Man City, far from it but I am suggesting that it would give us the best possible platform to succeed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

[Davefevs]

Morris is talking total shite!

Nobody is saying they can’t drink alcohol.  He’s conveniently avoiding the drink driving activity.

If Morris had set a rule that says - I’ll sack you for drink driving - then you’ve got to be a bit of a dick to use that “strategy” to get you out of a contract.

Any new club picking up a player in that scenario needs their head looking at too. But it wouldn’t change some clubs who are just as unscrupulous as Derby.

i know it’s not as black and white as I make out, but Morris has got some nerve turning it round to be just about drinking alcohol, because it’s not.

They could’ve killed someone, an innocent person.  They almost left their team mate for dead.

Like Cardiff, a situation where the football club could have come out much better, but have worked with £signs in their eyes only.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

There is of course the obvious FFP angle.

Not just from writing off the cost of sacking Lawrence- Bennett academy product so I'm not so sure how that works under residual value model.

Keogh though- I believe that Derby wouid have to apply to the EFL for any legal costs associated with this case to be exempt from FFP and the EFL would have a decision to make. I'd suggest that what should happen with that would be that legal fees excluded, but any compensation payout would be part of the calculations as it's football related. Whereas their litigation against Sam Rush in 2017, there's a good argument to exclude all of those costs as he wasn't a player or similar.

That was my interpretation from early and seems to be Kieran Maguire's at this stage too- the Keogh bit, no idea what he thinks of the Sam Rush cost breakdown.

[Unan]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

Ignore, new phone doesn't allow me to delete quotes, apologies. 

 

Slightly off topic, but regarding FFP, is Rooney not receiving 50k per week as a player & 50k a week as a coach (which doesn't apply to FFP the same way as a players wage would)? 

Surely this is borderline rule breaking, how do you justify 50k a week on a coach? It's obviously 99k a week wages but they've got around FFP again.