Fam Last Night...

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I do wonder whether he needs a big man alongside him, he doesn’t really enjoy the physical battle and does have good feet at times, e.g. when he cuts in from left side.  He doesn’t suit Weimann nor Palmer....that is a problem, because generally they are our main forward options.

 

I think that’s the nail on head. If you look at player ratings, generally KP is near the top each time. We can’t all be just seduced by the song so he has to be performing well. Likewise Weimann - the work rate, share of goals and link play makes him invaluable at the moment. 

And if Fam can’t play well with those two, it needs to be him that doesn’t play and not them tbh.

I also have this really nagging thought. 17/18 season our best form came with Fam out (albeit after he’d got injured when having a stormer vs Palace). 18/19 he was banned for first six and we looked good with Weimann scoring. Is it just a case of he’s never really fit in (and with that in mind, due credit for a serviceable scoring record in a team that doesn’t suit), and it’s just become more obvious now - both because we’ve seen what good looks like by way of Afobe, and because of the aforementioned quicker midfield?

[pillred]

1 hour ago, swanker said:

Not many on here were that impressed when we signed Afobe or Williams. Also quite a  few wanted Johnson gone not that long ago  

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but yes on paper both players were seen as being washed up or past their best, Lees performance at one time would have seen him sacked at almost any other club so you can understand why a lot wanted him out, at the moment things are going pretty well let's hope we don't have another long losing streak or the knives will again be sharpened.

[spudski]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good starting post @Silvio Dante firstly.

I do get the bit about not anticipating, flat-footed, but of late I’ve not seen the desire, certainly not last night when given 45 minutes to stake a claim for a start on Saturday.  I want to see him at full-tilt.  When he does he can be a fearsome sight for his opponent.  I thought he went through the motions last night.  I’m not giving up on him though.

Yes, he has that in his locker.

I do wonder whether he needs a big man alongside him, he doesn’t really enjoy the physical battle and does have good feet at times, e.g. when he cuts in from left side.  He doesn’t suit Weimann nor Palmer....that is a problem, because generally they are our main forward options.

 

You've got to question his mindset if he's just going through the motions.

I look at Moore and Messengo...young lads working their socks off. 

Moore could have sulked but has shown immense attitude, fortitude and improved his game.

Messengo thrown in at the deep end and plays like a man ten years older.

If you don't have the skill...at least bust a gut and show desire.

He has done frequently in the past...so far this season I've been left even more unimpressed.

[RedM]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

 

Since Afobe and Semenyo starting he looks even a shadow of himself...

My gut instinct is that he will be moved on. And maybe he feels this too...who knows.

He's had long enough to know how we play...he just doesn't fit imo.

I think we seem to be moving away from him now. For 2 seasons we played him just about every time he was available but now we have quite a different team and we are playing to their strengths and not necessarily Diedhiou’s. The lone striker role he got lumbered with doesn’t bring out the best in him, but he hasn’t formed a lethal partnership with anyone either. If we can’t reinvent Diedhiou we have to change other parts, which we have. 

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think that’s the nail on head. If you look at player ratings, generally KP is near the top each time. We can’t all be just seduced by the song so he has to be performing well. Likewise Weimann - the work rate, share of goals and link play makes him invaluable at the moment. 

And if Fam can’t play well with those two, it needs to be him that doesn’t play and not them tbh.

I also have this really nagging thought. 17/18 season our best form came with Fam out (albeit after he’d got injured when having a stormer vs Palace). 18/19 he was banned for first six and we looked good with Weimann scoring. Is it just a case of he’s never really fit in (and with that in mind, due credit for a serviceable scoring record in a team that doesn’t suit), and it’s just become more obvious now - both because we’ve seen what good looks like by way of Afobe, and because of the aforementioned quicker midfield?

If we look at his partners, there’s no definite correlation to what is his ideal partner:

Reid - started pretty well as a partnership, but Reid was the link in coming short and the legs / brain of the press.  But the time Fam had returned from injury Reid was the 9 (Pato his no10), and was making many more forward runs than “link up” runs.  They were not the same type of partnership in the run-in.

Weimann - ought to be similar to Reid, but Weimann doesn’t really want to come short, which placed the emphasis on Fam to do the link work, which isn’t his skill set.

Djuric - very limited minutes, but he gave Dean and Morrison a torrid night on one occasion (as the little man)

Taylor - again limited minutes, but Taylor prepared to work his nuts off and come short.  It looked like it had potential (cup run).

Palmer - Just doesn't work as he won’t roll his man, or spin in behind.

No partner - away from home, our travelling fans gave probably seen performances that fit the away style.  Scored some good / crucial goals.

Thoughts?

[Oops]

Diedhiou’s first touch is generally crap, he’s ‘squared up’ much of the time when receiving high balls, he doesn’t drop off and spin into space or run the channels, and he always arrives half a second late at the front post when the crosses are delivered, and he definitely does NOT have a change of pace.

He’s been here long enough to have been coached and seen the video evidence  after every game, or he’s ignoring the coaching and doing his own thing.

He simply has not stepped up since Afobe’s injury, and 4 games on the bench has not prompted any improvement or change in his playing style. 

I’ve never seen a physical specimen of his size lose more ‘easy’ challenges, or put less effort into getting into goalscoring positions.

And yet his stats are better than average

He’s an enigma who needs a bit of education from a proven forwards coach, and an extra yard of pace. Spud and the OP are spot on

[Silvio Dante]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If we look at his partners, there’s no definite correlation to what is his ideal partner:

Reid - started pretty well as a partnership, but Reid was the link in coming short and the legs / brain of the press.  But the time Fam had returned from injury Reid was the 9 (Pato his no10), and was making many more forward runs than “link up” runs.  They were not the same type of partnership in the run-in.

Weimann - ought to be similar to Reid, but Weimann doesn’t really want to come short, which placed the emphasis on Fam to do the link work, which isn’t his skill set.

Djuric - very limited minutes, but he gave Dean and Morrison a torrid night on one occasion (as the little man)

Taylor - again limited minutes, but Taylor prepared to work his nuts off and come short.  It looked like it had potential (cup run).

Palmer - Just doesn't work as he won’t roll his man, or spin in behind.

No partner - away from home, our travelling fans gave probably seen performances that fit the away style.  Scored some good / crucial goals.

Thoughts?

The cynical harsh part of me says that if that many partners don’t really work with a player then the problem is with the player themself, but that’s probably oversimplifying things.

I think people get hung up on Fams size and assume he should be a bruiser - he should certainly be tougher than he is, but he’s not a Robbie Turner for example. What I think is clear is that he’s not a real target man despite his size. As @Olé pointed out, he wasn’t that in France. The trouble is, he isn’t a good enough option as a “head down, run” option and we don’t really play that way.

The most telling one you have there is Djuric. I think Fams ideal partner is a Djuric, a Zahore - a player bigger than him to take the hits and let him play on the other CH, pick up the scraps (and actually being on the less dominant CH may encourage him to use his strength more). That’d also be better in a more direct team though.

So, shorter answer - we haven’t really for a sustained period found a partner that fits. Probably because he doesn’t fit the style/the role we’re asking him to play. There is, however, a team/style which he’d be better suited to and probably do well - just isn’t us I’d say.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

There is, however, a team/style which he’d be better suited to and probably do well - just isn’t us I’d say.

Cardiff is the team. Said it last season, Warnock would have Fam playing well. Not passing it to his feet all the time.

Cardiff were rumoured to be interested in Fam in the summer. I know they brought in a big striker, but does Warnock need one more?

And I would like Danny Ward. Wanted him when his contract ran out at Rotherham. Very hard working striker with pace. I think he really could work well with Weimann.

So in January swap deal plus a bit of money from Cardiff considering Fam has more time left on contract?

[eardun]

In previous seasons I’ve always felt that Fam is one of those players that needs a run of a fair few games before he gets fully motoring and his touch up to speed. Clearly he is not in Afobe’s class, but the dilemma LJ will have I feel is that we won’t get the best out of Fam if he is and out of the starting 11.

[Superjack]

23 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Cardiff is the team. Said it last season, Warnock would have Fam playing well. Not passing it to his feet all the time.

Cardiff were rumoured to be interested in Fam in the summer. I know they brought in a big striker, but does Warnock need one more?

And I would like Danny Ward. Wanted him when his contract ran out at Rotherham. Very hard working striker with pace. I think he really could work well with Weimann.

So in January swap deal plus a bit of money from Cardiff considering Fam has more time left on contract?

I have long thought that as long as Warnock is there, this will be where he ends up.

I hope not though. He doesn't deserve some of the stick he gets at the moment, let alone if he went there.

[leadman]

He's still our best fit striker at the moment.

Get behind him.

[spudski]

The telling sign, is playing Semenyo instead of him.

A lad that is as raw as I've ever seen at this level...

I get the impression we are in transition again. 

If you look at our injured players, who would be automatic choices...Kalas, DaSilva, Nagy, Afobe/would have been Nketiah...mixed in with our other talent, it's not hard to see how much we've upgraded.

Semenyo is being played imo, as he's seen as the type of player we can mold into what we want...the likes of Chelsea also saw the same. He's way off Championship standard imo...but needs must ATM.

The fact he's being chosen ahead of Famara speaks volumes imo.

Watch Famara start against Reading on Saturday though...think it's a game suited to him.

[BobBobSuperBob]

19 minutes ago, leadman said:

He's still our best fit striker at the moment.

Get behind him.

Really ?

The Head Coach doesn’t think so

[J-mat]

Fam is great if we put the ball in the box. 

Fam isn't great if we slide the ball through.

I'm a massive fan of Lee, but the stick that Fam is unfairly taking is down to him as much as it's down to the limited intellect of those abusing him.

He works plenty hard enough, too. He dropped in to win 3-4 tackles in our half last night. Thats a good number. He just cant run 60 yards in 2.7 seconds to get up front again after helping.

it's unfortunate, because he has scored a lot of important goals for us and looks to be a really good lad. he doesn't fit in with how we want to play and we dont fit in with the way he needs to play to be successful.

thing is, if we sell him then we may as well sell Elliasson too. Which would be a shame as i think hes our most talented player.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, J-mat said:

Fam is great if we put the ball in the box. 

Fam isn't great if we slide the ball through.

I'm a massive fan of Lee, but the stick that Fam is unfairly taking is down to him as much as it's down to the limited intellect of those abusing him.

He works plenty hard enough, too. He dropped in to win 3-4 tackles in our half last night. Thats a good number. He just cant run 60 yards in 2.7 seconds to get up front again after helping.

it's unfortunate, because he has scored a lot of important goals for us and looks to be a really good lad. he doesn't fit in with how we want to play and we dont fit in with the way he needs to play to be successful.

thing is, if we sell him then we may as well sell Elliasson too. Which would be a shame as i think hes our most talented player.

 

Can you help with a link to this 

Thanks in advance 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

The telling sign, is playing Semenyo instead of him.

A lad that is as raw as I've ever seen at this level...

I get the impression we are in transition again. 

If you look at our injured players, who would be automatic choices...Kalas, DaSilva, Nagy, Afobe/would have been Nketiah...mixed in with our other talent, it's not hard to see how much we've upgraded.

Semenyo is being played imo, as he's seen as the type of player we can mold into what we want...the likes of Chelsea also saw the same. He's way off Championship standard imo...but needs must ATM.

The fact he's being chosen ahead of Famara speaks volumes imo.

Watch Famara start against Reading on Saturday though...think it's a game suited to him.

I would go Semenyo again on Saturday, but I don’t think LJ will.  Should LJ go Semenyo, you’ve got to question Fam’s future here. Gregor talked of potential contract talks for Fam.  I can’t see it at the mo’.

[JBFC II]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Really ?

The Head Coach doesn’t think so

Let’s be fair, this is the same head coach that thought Diony would strengthen us...

In all seriousness, I’d have Fam starting over Semenyo at the moment. Semenyo is still too raw and while he is a talent his footballing nous isn’t quite there yet. 

Fam wasn’t great last night (although I think some are being harsh on him) but he gives defences more problems than Semenyo currently imo. Play him for 60 on Saturday and then bring Semenyo on to give reading something different to think about

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

Let’s be fair, this is the same head coach that thought Diony would strengthen us...

In all seriousness, I’d have Fam starting over Semenyo at the moment. Semenyo is still too raw and while he is a talent his footballing nous isn’t quite there yet. 

Fam wasn’t great last night (although I think some are being harsh on him) but he gives defences more problems than Semenyo currently imo. Play him for 60 on Saturday and then bring Semenyo on to give reading something different to think about

So are you saying LJ has Famara wrong ?

[mozo]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

The telling sign, is playing Semenyo instead of him.

A lad that is as raw as I've ever seen at this level...

I get the impression we are in transition again. 

If you look at our injured players, who would be automatic choices...Kalas, DaSilva, Nagy, Afobe/would have been Nketiah...mixed in with our other talent, it's not hard to see how much we've upgraded.

Semenyo is being played imo, as he's seen as the type of player we can mold into what we want...the likes of Chelsea also saw the same. He's way off Championship standard imo...but needs must ATM.

The fact he's being chosen ahead of Famara speaks volumes imo.

Watch Famara start against Reading on Saturday though...think it's a game suited to him.

I just wonder if Semenyo would actually benefit more from a season in league one to continue a steady development. Too late now though. He's in the thick of it.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, J-mat said:

Fam is great if we put the ball in the box. 
on what evidence?  Yes he’s scored a good few headers, but his anticipation is way off.

Fam isn't great if we slide the ball through.

that’s exactly how he scored goals in France.  He rarely makes those runs anymore.  He did in 17/18.

I'm a massive fan of Lee, but the stick that Fam is unfairly taking is down to him as much as it's down to the limited intellect of those abusing him.

thanks, I won’t take any offence from that

He works plenty hard enough, too. He dropped in to win 3-4 tackles in our half last night. Thats a good number. He just cant run 60 yards in 2.7 seconds to get up front again after helping.

agree, but I’d question the desire to do it given he only had to do it for 45mins last night.  I could excuse him going full-tilt for 60, blowing out his arse, and getting subbed every week.  I think he’d be a handful if he went full-tilt.

it's unfortunate, because he has scored a lot of important goals for us and looks to be a really good lad.

they all appear to be good lads.  We appear to have a good bunch.

he doesn't fit in with how we want to play and we dont fit in with the way he needs to play to be successful.

I think that is exactly what some of us with “limited intellect” () are saying.

thing is, if we sell him then we may as well sell Elliasson too. Which would be a shame as i think hes our most talented player.

How many assists does Eliasson have for Diedhiou? Zero....I’ve just checked.  That kinda goes back to my first response.  Eliasson - is a topic for another day!

[JBFC II]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

So are you saying LJ has Famara wrong ?

Personally yep, I think he’s putting too much responsibility on Semenyos young shoulders where a more experienced head like Famara could give us something slightly different for the first 60. 

Now, I obviously don’t know what goes on in training and LJ obviously has more of an idea about where each individual player is at but I feel that Fam gives more of a goal threat currently and is more difficult for defenders to play against. When they start to tire a bit that’s the perfect time to bring on the young legs of Semenyo though. When we do that as well, don’t launch balls up towards him, get him running in behind and stretch the defenders. His (Semenyos) touch and hold up play are decent but from what I’ve seen he isn’t a target man

[JoeAman08]

I wonder if the answer is something unconventional again. I wouldn’t mind seeing O’Dowda play the Afobe role. He has the physical attributes to do it. He is not getting minutes at LWB and we do not often play wingers atm. I don’t think he’d be full of goals but think it would help us maybe win more set pieces like corners and fouls around the box. Him and Weimann would be nightmares for defenders with their pressing ability. Just a thought as not sure Fam or Semenyo are the answers for us

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Let’s be fair, this is the same head coach that thought Diony would strengthen us...

In all seriousness, I’d have Fam starting over Semenyo at the moment. Semenyo is still too raw and while he is a talent his footballing nous isn’t quite there yet. 

Fam wasn’t great last night (although I think some are being harsh on him) but he gives defences more problems than Semenyo currently imo. Play him for 60 on Saturday and then bring Semenyo on to give reading something different to think about

Two comments - 

1) Diony was a loan that flopped. He wasn’t the first nor will he be the last. Loans don’t all turn out like Tammy, Kalas or Dasilva.

2) How will Semenyo learn ‘nouse’ if he’s not getting regular starts? 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Personally yep, I think he’s putting too much responsibility on Semenyos young shoulders where a more experienced head like Famara could give us something slightly different for the first 60. 

Now, I obviously don’t know what goes on in training and LJ obviously has more of an idea about where each individual player is at but I feel that Fam gives more of a goal threat currently and is more difficult for defenders to play against. When they start to tire a bit that’s the perfect time to bring on the young legs of Semenyo though. When we do that as well, don’t launch balls up towards him, get him running in behind and stretch the defenders. His (Semenyos) touch and hold up play are decent but from what I’ve seen he isn’t a target man

2 goals in 19 League appearances

I Think Lees realised , and IMHO,  what he should have done 18months+ ago

Famara doesn’t fit our ethos , never has and hasn’t improved since he arrived

I keep,asking people who say that’s not his game what ‘his game’ actually is, no one has really tackled that

His touch and (lack of)  movement are awful for a Championship forward and neither show signs of improvement 3 yrs in

He beats his chest and fans see that as committment

Fwiw I don’t see the workrate or giving it his all 

As for his effect on our (team)  play , as I said , IMHO it’s like pouring cooking oil in your engine 

 

Curtis Davies made interesting comments about him 18 months ago

 

 

[Brann-red]

5 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

At Griffin Park last night, I had the unusual experience of being behind the goal (don’t get to too many away and seats are in Dolman). What that did was give a really good view of Famara second half, and to try and get a perspective on why he doesn’t seem to fit currently (note, I know I’m not his biggest fan).

First things first. The chance from the KP through ball just after HT. If you watch Fams run, it’s scattergun. It could be argued he’s taking defenders away but it more looked as if he didn’t know what run to make as he’s in, out, and across in a lot of movement. When the ball came it was in his path but only because he’d arrived there rather than making a specific run (see difference with Afobe pointing). That’s why he didn’t collect, it was because the ball for want of a better term hit him, as opposed to hitting his stride through the run intent.

Next, the positioning from GK/Balls from the back. You could see exactly when Fam was going to win the ball - he got in position early, set himself and ran maybe 4-5 yards towards the ball. When he wasn’t in position early, he didn’t react quickly enough to the ball out to win it. He probably won 50% of balls out from the back, but only when he was set early first.

General work rate - I don’t subscribe to the theory Fam didn’t work last night. I think he did, but the problem was he didn’t anticipate so when we had the ball, he looked off the pace. Plus, anyone would look bad compared to Weimanns work rate.

What all the above says to me is that the main problem Fam has is his anticipation - his game awareness if you like. Give him a set scenario and he’s fine. Ask him to play instinctively, and he struggles. What’s happening is we now have intelligent, probing, fast moving players in midfield (the tempo of Brownhill/Palmer/Massengo is way quicker than Brownhill/Pato/Pack where the latter two played quite deliberately and Fam had more opportunity to “set”). It’s difficult to see how his speed of thought can catch up with KP etc and that’s why he’s not been first choice after Benik got injured - it’s the impact on the rest of the team and the speed of thought we look to play at. He looks worse because of that but he’s not actually playing worse than prior.

I think he’s got a role this season - but even with Benik injured, I find it hard to envisage anything other than impact sub in view of the above,

Fantastic assessment and exactly what I saw from where we were sat also . 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Personally yep, I think he’s putting too much responsibility on Semenyos young shoulders where a more experienced head like Famara could give us something slightly different for the first 60. 

Now, I obviously don’t know what goes on in training and LJ obviously has more of an idea about where each individual player is at but I feel that Fam gives more of a goal threat currently and is more difficult for defenders to play against. When they start to tire a bit that’s the perfect time to bring on the young legs of Semenyo though. When we do that as well, don’t launch balls up towards him, get him running in behind and stretch the defenders. His (Semenyos) touch and hold up play are decent but from what I’ve seen he isn’t a target man

All about opinions, but as soon as you select Diedhiou, you lose the effectiveness of Palmer and Weimann.  I’d rather Semenyo get 5/10 every game to allow Palmer and Weimann to function.  Ideally, Semenyo improves, or LJ pulls a masterstroke and finds a “forward” in O’Dowda or Szmodics.  I am down on Fam, because I think he’s regressing.  I saw quite a bit of him at Angers, admittedly in France, but still top-flight French Footie and he was a better playing than he’s showing currently.  I’d love him to come good, but I do wonder whether he can be an effective striker for us.  Goals record is pretty decent.  I want more from a 13 goal striker.  Weimann is a 10+ striker (who plays half his games out wide) but offers stuff for the team.  It’s tough.  I don’t like being critical of Fam.

[JBFC II]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Two comments - 

1) Diony was a loan that flopped. He wasn’t the first nor will he be the last. Loans don’t all turn out like Tammy, Kalas or Dasilva.

2) How will Semenyo learn ‘nouse’ if he’s not getting regular starts? 

 

True on the first point, but he was brought in at a critical stage of the season where our form had started to nosedive ever so slightly and we needed fresh legs to boost us back up. LJ lumped on a player who wasn’t up for it.

Semenyo will learn ‘nous’ through match experience which realistically should be in league one as he isn’t up to championship level. But he is and so as you say he should be getting game time, however I’ve seen nothing v Brentford or Preston to say he should be starting

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Two comments - 

1) Diony was a loan that flopped. He wasn’t the first nor will he be the last. Loans don’t all turn out like Tammy, Kalas or Dasilva.

2) How will Semenyo learn ‘nouse’ if he’s not getting regular starts? 

 

1) agreed and I think we need to take another risk in January just as we did with Diony and fingers crossed we get a striker with confidence and desire like we did with Afobe.

2) as I said earlier, I think a season in League 1 would have been better for him. Hopefully it'll just click with him and he can stay in the squad for a while, but it's a brutal league for a young, raw talent to adapt to.

[BS4 on Tour...]

Unfortunately Fammy just ain’t good enough - lots have praised him and staunchly supported him and lots have bemoaned his inadequacies given the fact we spent over £5m on him. 

He is suffocating Weimann and he can’t read the thoughts and actions of a class act like Kasey Palmer - he undoubtedly tries his heart out when wearing our shirt, but every single one of us on here would try our heart out if we played for the City - doesn’t mean we are good enough.

’Trying’ is the bare minimum, an absolute ‘given’ - an academy player would do that - we should and must expect more from a £5m striker ...

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

True on the first point, but he was brought in at a critical stage of the season where our form had started to nosedive ever so slightly and we needed fresh legs to boost us back up. LJ lumped on a player who wasn’t up for it.

Semenyo will learn ‘nous’ through match experience which realistically should be in league one as he isn’t up to championship level. But he is and so as you say he should be getting game time, however I’ve seen nothing v Brentford or Preston to say he should be starting

I think we just responded almost the same thing to RR just then!