PHILINFRANCE Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said: Agree with your last point entirely, often dismays me when watching 'fly on the wall' tv progs with police (Intercepters/ Call The Police etc) . After witnessing reckless car chases often causing hundreds/thousands of pounds worth of damage in the process, peoples lives at risk, coppers risking their own lives trying to apprehend the toe rags etc etc, only to hear totally derisory sanctions imposed by the courts (and that's even if the offenders actually get charged at all) when the prog gives the outcome updates. I'm amazed sometimes that coppers stay in the job when after risking life and limb catching the idiots next to f' all comes of it. Maybe then, coppers will feel better supported, the public will be safer, money may be available to tackle the many crimes such as you've mentioned properly instead of going investigated due to lack of resources.. Anyone watching these programmes must be shocked at the depth of under resourcing now being experienced by our emergency services, and how stretched and near to collapse the response system really is. When caught and found guilty, offenders really should 'pay the price' monetarily and through deprivation of liberty.. we'll all e better off then. Theres something wrong when a minor traffic infringement, parking, straying into a bus lane briefly and accidentally (a few mins inside restricted hours) etc gets picked up on cctv and automatic fines land on doorsteps... While at the same time some of these proper criminals even when caught get away with minimal punishment (if any) of less than a standard parking ticket If you have time, try and watch 'A Confession' on ITV next Monday evening. I am sure you are familiar with the (true) story, but I should be interested to know your views and those of @BobBobSuperBob and, especially, @Fordy62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: If you have time, try and watch 'A Confession' on ITV next Monday evening. I am sure you are familiar with the (true) story, but I should be interested to know your views and those of @BobBobSuperBob and, especially, @Fordy62 Steve Fulcher ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Steve Fulcher ? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Yes. I can give you my answer now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: If you have time, try and watch 'A Confession' on ITV next Monday evening. I am sure you are familiar with the (true) story, but I should be interested to know your views and those of @BobBobSuperBob and, especially, @Fordy62 Is that the Supt who got a confession to a murder by a chap already doing life, but didn’t follow some sort of protocol and it was dropped/overturned? edit: Yep. Just read up. The man is a proper detective. Genuinely a brilliant decision and it saddens me that he was treated the way he was. He did the wrong thing for the right reason and they vilified him for it. (I reserve the right to watch in further detail before committing to that as my final answer!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Is that the Supt who got a confession to a murder by a chap already doing life, but didn’t follow some sort of protocol and it was dropped/overturned? Yes , ran a train thro PACE and confession was ruled inadmissible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Is that the Supt who got a confession to a murder by a chap already doing life, but didn’t follow some sort of protocol and it was dropped/overturned? Yes. In brief, the (convicted) murderer offered to 'show SF where another body was' and, rather than risk losing the lead by delaying matters and following PACE protocol, SF went to the 'burial' site with the murderer, who was later cleared as his 'confession' was deemed unacceptable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Yes , ran a train thro PACE and confession was ruled inadmissible But, he got the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Yes. I brief, the (convicted) murderer offered to 'show SF where another body was' and, rather than risk losing the lead by delaying matters and following PACE protocol, SF went to the 'burial' site with the murderer, who was later cleared as his 'confession' was deemed unacceptable.... And later convicted in 2016. I’d be proud if I were him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Fordy62 said: But, he got the job done. Not in the first instance, as the (self-admitted) murderer was found not guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: And later convicted in 2016. I’d be proud if I were him. So would I, but you should bear in mind that SF was reprimanded and is no longer a serving Police Officer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: But, he got the job done. Extremely frustrating , especially in a major investigation - but as law enforcers , You simply can’t do that Fordy and breach or bend the rules and legislation to suit , when it suits That was the 60s and 70s PACE came in for a reason and as a WMP I thought you’d be aware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Not in the first instance, as the (self-admitted) murderer was found not guilty. Yeh, but he was away by then and unable to kill. I love proper detective work. He got told off and resigned I believe. If he hadn’t done what he did, we’d never have known. 4 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Not in the first instance, as the (self-admitted) murderer was found not guilty. Yeh, but he was away by then and unable to kill. I love proper detective work. He got told off and resigned I believe. If he hadn’t done what he did, we’d never have known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Fordy62 said: Yeh, but he was away by then and unable to kill. I love proper detective work. He got told off and resigned I believe. If he hadn’t done what he did, we’d never have known. Yeh, but he was away by then and unable to kill. I love proper detective work. He got told off and resigned I believe. If he hadn’t done what he did, we’d never have known. With due respect Fordy Proper detective work is investigating and convicting within the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Extremely frustrating , especially in a major investigation - but as law enforcers , You simply can’t do that Fordy and breach or bend the rules and legislation to suit , when it suits That was the 60s and 70s PACE came in for a reason and as a WMP I thought you’d be aware If you need to bend the rules to find a body that otherwise you’ll never find, then bend away. This isn’t setting someone up for a Poxy car theft or even bank robbery. This is finding the body of a murdered missing girl by denying someone a right. Thats alright by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: If you need to bend the rules to find a body that otherwise you’ll never find, then bend away. This isn’t setting someone up for a Poxy car theft or even bank robbery. This is finding the body of a murdered missing girl by denying someone a right. Thats alright by me. Purely to Locatethe body , if that was the only chance , may be a good reason to breach PACE in those particular circumstances (Although didn’t know at that point what evidence they may or may not uncover) but then don’t be surprised when a Crown Court Judge rules the evidence inadmissible in any subsequent trial Are you saying it’s ok to bend the rules or breach PACE in any major investigation or just in these particular circumstances ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: If you need to bend the rules to find a body that otherwise you’ll never find, then bend away. This isn’t setting someone up for a Poxy car theft or even bank robbery. This is finding the body of a murdered missing girl by denying someone a right. Thats alright by me. But what about the 9 times out of 10 you break the rules and the people involved are innocent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: If you need to bend the rules to find a body that otherwise you’ll never find, then bend away. This isn’t setting someone up for a Poxy car theft or even bank robbery. This is finding the body of a murdered missing girl by denying someone a right. Thats alright by me. You’re view of the SIO may not be the same as many who worked with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, Unan said: But what about the 9 times out of 10 you break the rules and the people involved are innocent Innocent people don’t tend to be (a) convicted of murder and (b) able to show you where a body is. So outside of these circumstances I’m not up for breaking any to be honest. If you’d like to give me a set of circumstances I’ll gladly comment. 3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: You’re view of the SIO may not be the same as many who worked with him Ahhh. That’s a different story maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Innocent people don’t tend to be (a) convicted of murder and (b) able to show you where a body is. So outside of these circumstances I’m not up for breaking any to be honest. If you’d like to give me a set of circumstances I’ll gladly comment. Ahhh. That’s a different story maybe. It concerns me tbh Fordy that you call it proper detective work On what basis ? To return the body to family but accepting any evidence will almost certainly be inadmissible ? Maybe a human decision but not proper detective work by any means * This thread for non football chat in all honesty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhistleHappy Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Not in the first instance, as the (self-admitted) murderer was found not guilty. …. in this case the laudable intentions PACE were proved to be inadequate as it led to the law being shown up to be an utter arse! The murderer aided and abetted by the law claimed an extra innocent victim or two... thankfully the family's torment was brought to a conclusion and the long path to healing and coming to terms with knowledge of their daughters fate and whereabouts was enabled by an honourable copper doing the 'right thing' even if technically incorrect . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: It concerns me tbh Fordy that you call it proper detective work On what basis ? Maybe it was a poor choice of phrase. I stand by the fact that it was the right call if there was no chance otherwise. I defy anyone to say that it’s a better decision to stick by the rules and therefore miss out on the chance to bring closure to a young woman’s family than otherwise. Losing the case would always be a risk and rightly so, but his decisions found that girls body and made that family happier (sort of a bizarre thing to say!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said: …. in this case the laudable intentions PACE were proved to be inadequate as it led to the law being shown up to be an utter arse! The murderer aided and abetted by the law claimed an extra innocent victim or two... thankfully the family's torment was brought to a conclusion and the long path to healing and coming to terms with knowledge of their daughters fate and whereabouts was enabled by an honourable copper doing the 'right thing' even if technically incorrect . Agree with that - PACE should have been reviewed as a result of this case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Maybe it was a poor choice of phrase. I stand by the fact that it was the right call if there was no chance otherwise. I defy anyone to say that it’s a better decision to stick by the rules and therefore miss out on the chance to bring closure to a young woman’s family than otherwise. Losing the case would always be a risk and rightly so, but his decisions found that girls body and made that family happier (sort of a bizarre thing to say!) I’d agree with that - he succeeded in recovering her remains which one hopes was massive for family If he’d complied with the rules he may have achieved both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stortz Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Maybe it was a poor choice of phrase. I stand by the fact that it was the right call if there was no chance otherwise. I defy anyone to say that it’s a better decision to stick by the rules and therefore miss out on the chance to bring closure to a young woman’s family than otherwise. Losing the case would always be a risk and rightly so, but his decisions found that girls body and made that family happier (sort of a bizarre thing to say!) Hi Fordy, as someone who has lost a close family member to murder I agree with you to a fair extent here. The trouble surely is though that a gung ho approach could actually see someone like Halliwell freed in other circumstances on a technicality? Especially if others abrogate their procedural responsibilities in pursuit of information. I do of course understand and respect Fulcher's motivation for his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freezer Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 53 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said: …. in this case the laudable intentions PACE were proved to be inadequate as it led to the law being shown up to be an utter arse! The murderer aided and abetted by the law claimed an extra innocent victim or two... thankfully the family's torment was brought to a conclusion and the long path to healing and coming to terms with knowledge of their daughters fate and whereabouts was enabled by an honourable copper doing the 'right thing' even if technically incorrect . I've got to say that I think @WhistleHappymust of been cloned. From being the most unfunny wittiest person on the forum with his tired quips and (humour) he/she has recently apparently changed persona and taken on a different mantle. Long may it continue, although the all new Whistle Happy, who seems very articulate and vastly improved on their previous postings will undoubtedly demolish me for pointing this out. As for Dean Saunders. What a cockwomble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhistleHappy Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, freezer said: I've got to say that I think @WhistleHappymust of been cloned. From being the most unfunny wittiest person on the forum with his tired quips and (humour) he/she has recently apparently changed persona and taken on a different mantle. Long may it continue, although the all new Whistle Happy, who seems very articulate and vastly improved on their previous postings will undoubtedly demolish me for pointing this out. As for Dean Saunders. What a cockwomble I know my rights under the provision of Norman PACE and choose to remain silent... therefore I have … NO COMMENT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 Following our debate , and now having watched the dramatisation , and the series of events Any thoughts @PHILINFRANCE .? @Fordy62 ? (Thought it was well made) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted October 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 9 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Following our debate , and now having watched the dramatisation , and the series of events Any thoughts @PHILINFRANCE .? @Fordy62 ? (Thought it was well made) Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to watch the 'dramatisation'. I shall try and find it and comment later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to watch the 'dramatisation'. I shall try and find it and comment later. No sweat Phil Just interested what you thought , if you had watched it it’s about.5 parts mind ! Dont worry if you don’t get to see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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